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Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by Seahawksfan, Apr 5, 2016.
Too many Justice League members in movie there. Sound too crammed.
I agree. I think there's more than enough to explore with just those 2 characters.
I wouldn't have the cities "across the bay". While they don't need to be on the opposite end of the country, I find that having them so close is unnecessary. (The bat symbol should not be visible from metropolis)
I would touch on the differences between metropolis & gotham, while introducing specific characters & elements in those cities (Gordon, GCPD, star labs, etc.)
I would make batman similar in age. Just show both characters in their prime.
well, the whole movie took the wrong path so I would change everything.
but, given that same movie we saw, I'll just delete some useless BS to make it less poor and messy, but it'll still be not that good.
I'll delete :
- the whole flashbacks of Martha and Thomas getting killed.
- the whole dream sequences.
- the justice league teasers.
- Wonder Woman scenes before the final fight. I'll make her appearance as a surprise in the end. That way, the scene of her saving batman from Doomsday laser $h!t will be a memorable introduction, especially with the soundtrack which will have more effect and sense.
- the whole Superman/Clark funerals scene.
in the end, we get maybe 2h15m long film less painful to watch, less boring, less messy. But still mediocre.
But don't you want changes that not make movie mediocre?
Why not, mediocre would be an improvement.
The problem is that most of the flashbacks and dreams either screw with the pacing, contradict the main narrative points, or both. Even if they didn't exist to serve other movies, they'd still be negative influences on the movie in themselves. The worst offender, of course, being the Knightmare sequence, which simultaneously brings the plot crashing to a halt for an extended period, makes no sense if you think about it even for a second, and establishes a motivation that renders the denouement ( "Martha!" ) illogical. Its a pure Snyder move, in that its moments of visual "wow" that nonetheless shouldn't be in the movie at all.
There would be one quick fight during Batman and Superman's first meeting, but from then on they would be partners
Villains would be Powersuit Lex and Metallo.
No Wonder Woman
Batman wouldn't kill
No Doomsday or Death of Superman
of course, but as I said, if we want a good movie then we'll have to make everything from zero with a totally different path, in other words : that whole BvS should have been thrown into the junk basket.
so, I worked as if we had to fix that existing movie. Let's say a cut.
I had quite a few problems with BvS, so this became quite long. So I put it in spoiler tags.
Haunted by the death of Jason Todd/Robin, Bruce Wayne/Batman has become more cruel against his enemies. While he hasn't killed anyone yet, Commissioner James Gordon fears that it's only a matter of time. He tries to plead with Batman to stop this vicious road that he's on, but Batman refuses. Alfred is also trying to get Bruce to stop with the vicious violence.
After the destruction that happened in the final fight in Man of Steel, Clark Kent/Superman, with the support of Lois, is trying his hardest to get people to not fear him. A demonstration against Superman goes haywire when people against Superman and people for Superman get into a huge brawl. That's what fear leads to. Superman wants to be an inspiration to people and give them hope. Superman believes that the best way to help people is to give them hope.
Bruce can't sleep during the nights. He's always dreaming of Jason's lifeless and bloody body. The never ending nightmares force Bruce to forget about sleep and instead put on his costume, and find peace in the violence against criminals. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon has had enough of Batman's brutality. They suit up as Nightwing and Batwoman, and locate Batman. They try and talk some sense into Batman, but when they start talking about Jason, the situation gets out of hand. It doesn't take long for the conversation to turn into a fight. During the fight, Batwoman is injured by an accident.
When Commissioner Gordon sees that his daughter has been injured in a fight with Batman, he realizes that Batman has to be stopped. He calls for a manhunt on Batman. Batman does no longer have the support of the police. Dick lets the police handle it because he now knows that the only way for him to stop Bruce, is to fight him with with no holds barred. And he can't do that against his old mentor. His friend.
Clark hears about the manhunt. He and Lois investigate further and realize how far Batman has fallen. They also find an article about the brutal death of Robin. As Superman, Clark is trying to give people hope and make them believe in heroes. But Batman's violent crusade is only putting fear in people and making them question heroes. Superman flies to Gotham City and locates Batman. Superman tries to reason with him and make him understand that keeping people in fear doesn't solve anything. It only leads to more violence. Batman argues that keeping people in fear is the same thing as keeping them in check.
Batman: If you go easy on them, trying to be an inspiration ... a hopeful figure ... they will laugh at you while they burn your world down.
Superman brings up that he knows what happened with Robin, and that he understands. Batman shoots back that he doesn't understand. Not yet. Batman says that criminals has to fear him more than they have in the past. They have to be afraid of what he will do, so they won't have the nerve to harm people close to him, like Nightwing, Batwoman and James Gordon. Batman tried to be an inspiration with Robin, but that only lead to the Joker not being afraid of Batman and what he could do, so he killed Robin without fear. That will not happen again. Superman argues with him, but Batman gets tired of his naivety. Batman tries to leave, but Superman doesn't let him. Batman attacks him, but Superman puts him to the ground with minimal force. Superman tells him to hang up his cape. If he doesn't, Superman will hand him over to the police.
Bruce, realizing that he's powerless aginst Superman, decides to stop being Batman. But it's easier said than done. Being Batman is like a drug, and the only life Bruce knows, so without it, he's a mess. He can't sleep, the nightmares about Jason won't let up. And he can't take out his frustration on criminals anymore. His temperament is unstable, and he tries to put space between himself and Alfred.
With Batman gone, people are starting to become more trusting of heroes, especially as Superman is out during the day, helping people with a smile on his face, and not hurting the criminals he stops.
Bruce's watching Superman on TV. He's watching how Superman gets to use his powers for good, how no one is telling him what to do. Bruce watches and gets more and more frustrated that he can't do what he lives for. Just because a boy scout doesn't know how the real world works. A boy scout who isn't even from this world. Bruce changes the channel to a local news report. A news reporter tells us that following the disapperance of Batman, crime has gone up in Gotham City. As Bruce watches the news, he has visions of Jason's death. It would be like this scene, but instead of Bruce having a flashback of his parents murder, it would be a vision of Jason's death:
Then a news report shows how Superman has been hit by a nuclear blast while trying to save a village. Reports show that Superman is alive, but he is hurt. Bruce smiles. Bruce goes to his cave and and all his different costumes and weapons. He chooses an armored costume and plenty of different weapons. He's born again.
Batman goes out in the night and starts punishing the criminals, putting them in hospitals, one after one. Superman hears of this, and even though he's still weak after the nuclear blast, he decides to stop him. Superman finds Batman while he's chasing criminals. Superman has had enough, he will turn over Batman to the police. Batman will make Superman learn that hope is without meaning. If you want order, you have to force it. People won't try and hurt you if they fear you. Batman is going to make Superman fear him. They engage in a brutal fight, where Batman gets the upper hand in the end. Batman is beating the crap out of Superman, but Superman refuses to back down. Refuses to give up. Superman's inner strength frustrates Batman, who just wants Superman to give up.
Batman: Why are you doing this? Why do you keep fighting?
Batman is punching Superman over and over again in the face.
Batman: Aren't you afraid, huh? Aren't you afraid?!
He raises his fist to hit Superman again, but Superman doesn't fight back.
Superman: My hope overcomes my fear. I know there's still good in you. I'm willing to bet my life on it.
Batman can only look at him, shocked. Batman contemplates what to do. Then he lowers his fist. Full of regrets, Batman drops to his knees, beside Superman. Superman's wounds heal quickly.
Batman: You remind me of him ... Naive ...
He tries his hardest to fight back his tears.
Batman: ... but pure.
He looks at Superman with regret showing in his eyes.
Batman: I'm sorry.
Superman stands up.
Superman: We all fall down sometime. That's why we need each other.
He offers Batman his hand. Batman looks at his hand, and contemplates. Batman then takes it, and Superman helps him to his feet. They shake hands, and Superman smiles.
Superman: Nice to finally meet you, Batman.
Batman shows a hint of a smile.
Batman: Now what?
A montage shows how Bruce apologizes to Dick and Barbara. Barbara hugs Bruce. Dick and Bruce shake hands, while Alfred looks on with an approving look. Batman drops off a criminal on the roof of Gotham City police department. Commissioner Gordon is there. The criminal is cuffed, but not hurt. Batman and Gordon share a nod. Batman jumps off the roof, and Gordon throws a glance at the batsignal that's also on the roof. Bruce buries the remains of Jason's battered Robin costume. Batman stands on top of a gargoyle. He sees the batsignal showing in the sky. Superman shows up. Batman shoots out a line from his grapple gun, and looks at Superman.
Batman: Race you.
Batman flies off the gargoyle. Superman can't help but to chuckle. Then he flies off, in the same direction. Batman is swinging with his line, and sees Superman flying pass him.
He continues swinging.
While it isn't a huge issue, it did bother me that the character name, "batman" wasn't actually used at all in the film. No one called him that.
I think only one character (Perry at the daily planet) called him batman, once.
Every other reference was either "the bat" "the Gotham bat" "bat vigilante", etc.
It was a small issue, but it was slightly annoying to me!
I'd like to thank all of the contributors in this thread. All of the ideas for a better plot helped me make this trailer for BvS. Tried to make it look a bit more focused.
My first post on the board:
When I saw the African scene in the theater, I thought that in part it functioned to light a fire under the U.S., to make the U.S. government more proactive about the hero's influence upon world affairs.
I think the ethical point of that section got lost in the shuffle: that just because a super-powerful hero comes in and messes with the affairs of a tyrant, that doesn't mean the tyrant will just roll over and reform once the hero's gone. The idea of the corrupt Africans simply slaughtering their own people out of spite seemed unfortunately on target as to how human beings behave when thwarted.
That's pretty much what I assumed it must be about, before the movie came out. After all, flying into a war-torn country, doing a few things, and then leaving could legitimately result in bad things happening afterwards. I don't know why they instead did what they did, unless it was simply a case of "the bad thing has to be totally the fault of the villain, Superman can't actually be making a mistake".
The movie should have worked better the contrast between the characters by showing more of Superman being active and well-regarded at the beginning. We know it happens, the statue, the press clippings, etc. But it should be shown more ON screen. Because if we see troubled long-disillusioned Batman and trouble progressively-more-disillusioned Superman, we are not really making the most of having the two characters in the same movie. The conflict should not just be a fight, but a contrast between two different approaches to superhero action.
A better received Superman would have irritated Luthor visibly, and the movie would have worked by having his manipulations slowly erode more and more of Superman's good image, not having it happen almost from the firsts events shown.
No silly nonsense of making Superman look like a killer, just emphasize the political tension resulting from his unilateral actions, and scrap completely the weak bullet subplot, and instead have Lois investigate Luthor and his covert campaign against Superman directly, allowing for more significant character interaction, and involving her more directly in the later stakes.
Luthor should not have tried to discredit Superman with the blow up the hearing plot which really could not be logically attributed to him and muddled the story, but instead have continued to make Superman look as an uncontrollable authoritarian precisely by egging him to find and take down a Batman he helped make looked more of a crazed criminal.
Batman would be made to distrust Superman as becoming a rule onto himself, and fight against him because of that, because Superman would mean the gradual subjugation of mankind, one Kryptonian would be ruler who had taken out Zod because he wanted no competition.
Luthor could have still kidnapped Martha Kent, but blamed Batman for it.
Because blackmailing Superman with the kidnapping of his mother while a workable plot still made Superman look weak and ineffective from the start.
Better justify the fight by kidnapping his mother and framing Batman for it. That ensures an angry, non-communicative Superman, who keeps asking WHERE IS HIS MOTHER, and there, the name Martha becomes not a solution but a CONFLICT point, as Batman thinks Superman is taunting him with his dead mother's name.
Their fight could have been in the Batcave itself, as Superman thought he was taking down a dangerous criminal and saving his mother, thus sparing us a Superman looking weak and ineffective by letting Luthor manipulate him. Batman there would have a better defensive system justified.
And when the conflict is solved and Bats goes to save Martha, it is a nice reversal of the setup. Not only he didnt do the kidnapping, but he actually saves her for Clark.
Then Luthor could have pulled his Doomsday card, and all other events may progress similarly, but under a better logical foundation that made the stakes more significant and without diminishing the heroes to make things work.
Obviously I can only speculate where they're going, but I wouldn't have killed superman or made Batman a killer. Batman more brutal than we've ever seen is fine, broken bones, abusing whoever, but I don't like making the heroes unlikable. Batman was more ruthless than anyone in suicide squad. A movie full of villains. Ridiculous what's going on at the dceu
I agree with this.
I understand the decision to mostly present Superman in that more negative contentious light throughout the entire film, as perhaps they thought it tonally gels better with a Batman story, and on some level I liked that bleak 'real world' look at Superman as it's something we've never seen before. But ultimately, this was the first Batman/Superman movie, and it should have been a true meeting of those two iconic fictions, and that means having the characters in more recognizable status quos.
So like you suggested, I would have started with the Superman portions of the story feeling like...a Superman story. The more contentious Superman stuff could have crept into the story as it went along. Perhaps they could have set the movie around the one-year anniversary of the Metropolis incident, where it naturally comes back into the public consciousness.
I agree that the movie should have delved more into this theme, specifically because it relates to how Supes deals with the Bat vigilante. That should have been Clark's character arc or lesson, learning that perhaps sometimes he can't just follow his boyscout gut instinct and that maybe not one brand of justice works everywhere. Maybe he's not the best man for every situation and maybe he actually does need to ask others for help sometimes instead of trying to solve the world's problems on his own. Together with Batman's own arc of learning to trust people again, the two deciding to work together could have had more impact. It could have been the culmination of both their character arcs in the film.
Well for a start, I wouldn't have made a Batman vs Superman movie to begin with. I would have made a Man of Steel sequel further expanding on this Superman, his relationship with Lois Lane & how the world perceives him after the events of MoS. I'd establish Lex Luthor as a character, why he hates Superman, then use Metallo as Lex Luthor's way of trying to kill Superman without necessarily implicating himself ie keeping him out of jail for further movies.
At the same time I'd have made a Batman movie that establishes this Batman, why he's so angry & ruthless. In BvS we get glimpses & hints why he's so angry, dead Robin's suit, his argument with Alfred about broken promises, good guys turning bad etc play one of those stores out rather than acting like we are all supposed to know them perhaps the Jason Todd/Red Hood story. If they'd done that then maybe people wouldn't have as hard a time accepting why Affleck's Batman seems off the rails.
Then after you've made those 2, obviously indicating that the 2 share the same universe at points in each movie, then you can start considering Batman/Superman crossover movie depending on where each are at.
[RANT]The biggest problem with Batman vs Superman for me is that WB/DC/Snyder or whoever is responsible, have essentially skipped so, so much glorious potential story angles & potential standalone movies & instead mashed several of them together & bundled it into BvS just to establish the DCEU seemingly as an attempt to try & catch up to the MCU.
It's like WB/DC/Snyder don't understand the wealth of iconic characters & story at their disposal & instead tried to jump on Marvel's coat-tail rather than trying to build their own universe over time.[/RANT]
I'd be surprised if nobody brought this up yet, but just in case, Max Landis had a really good idea of how to do this film. But, really, the best idea would have been to forget about Man of Steel and start fresh.
I wouldn't have.
Standing ovation to this post.
I never realised that. However, I do think it could have been intentional, seeing as how this version of Batman has fallen from grace, resorting to more violent methods, thus straying from the pre-BvS Batman vigilante people might have looked up to before, but end up fearing him in BvS.
However, once Superman inspires Bruce and he reverts back to his old ways, we see him reborn as The Batman once again. Flash even refers to Bruce as "The Batman" in the JL trailer, which might signify Bruce's return to the Batman persona, morally and personally.
Watched this movie again and I still LOVED it...
But Man this movie would have been a lot more favorable to most viewers IF ...
Wonder Woman and Doomsday WAS NEVER mentioned at all in trailers and promotional stuff.
IF that was kept a secret THE REVEAL in the movie would have been Memorable!!!
Gal Gadot should be billed as a mysterious thief to the public before the movie came out.
And when Bruce finds her Old pic I'll bet everyone in the audience will go bananas!!!
And when WW pops out of nowhere to save Batman and join Supes and Bats against Doomsday at the end....then the whole audience will rank this movie the top superhero movie!!!
But no one will ever know cause they were spoiled by that trailer and the promotional of Gal Gadot is playing WW.
Oh well, but if I could go back in time and has access to Zack Snyder then I would tell him To Keep WW a secret...it will pay off at the end.
I'd tweak the "Martha" scene in this way: In the murder of the Waynes scene at the beginning, have a delirious and dying Thomas Wayne tell Bruce to "save Martha" as his dying words. Martha however has already been shot at this point and Bruce was powerless to do anything. This phrase "save Martha" is something that ends up haunting Bruce for the rest of his life with guilt and feelings of powerlessness. He hallucinates it when reading the paper, he dreams it, it just obsesses him. Then at the conclusion of the climactic battle an exasperated Superman inexplicably utters the phrase that has haunted Bruce for his entire life "...save Martha". This is what stays Bruce's hand and he suddenly starts to wonder if this moment with Superman is fate's way of giving him the opportunity for some kind of vicarious redemption by saving someone else's mother by the same name from a similar tragic end.
It's a minor tweak to the film but I feel it works so much better than simply uttering the name Martha and expecting that to change Bruce's mind.
I would have done something a bit out there and named Gadot as a different Dc comics character so people think she's that one. Could have even been someone a little obscure or maybe given her Silver St Clouds name.
If anything though I think that trailer has shown them what not to do so future films (and as we saw with Wonde Woman) likely won't make that mistake again. If they hadn't made that mistake then they may have made it later.
I hate when people quote long posts but I just had to state how much I like your ideas. If I was a rich oil tycoon I would pay for Zack to do this movie as well as the one he gave us. But I do have to ask, if Lex framed Bats for kidnapping Martha and Supes fell for it wouldn't that also make him look weak and additionally stupid? I accept that you think the bullet plot line was lame but how else would Lois become aware that Lex needs to be investigated? You're not a screen writer so it's not your job to answer that but you've had so many good ideas already, JW if you had any more.
You recall the crossover of Supes and Bats on their animated TV shows of the 90s? I wonder if that would have been a more embraced route to take with the film.