Comics I am enraged (Feel free to merge this)

[Captivated]

The main reason Gwen was killed was because Marvel knew that it was going to have to be a break-up, Gwen's death, or marriage.

A break-up wouldn't work because it had already been done too many times, and the fans would wonder if and when they'd get back together (much the way it is with Mary Jane today). Even if they'd broken up, Gwen would not likely have become merely another cast member like Betty Brant did after she broke-up with Peter, since she'd been too prominent for too long.

Marvel knew then that marriage would be bad for Spider-Man, so that was out.

The best option, then, was to kill Gwen. not only would this free Peter up, but it would also give ASM a shot in the arm and some new energy (which it did).


The only reason Peter and MJ were married in the comics is because Stan felt a married couple would work better, dramatically, for the needs of his Spidey newspaper strip. EIC Jim Shooter felt that it would be weird to have Spidey married in the newspapers but not the comics, and so halted the original plan to have MJ dump Peter at the altar and shoehorned the marriage in.


Anyway, the illusion of change is difficult to define for those who refuse to accept it.

Peter gets a new girlfriend? The Illusion of change.

Peter has a profound experience and learns a valuable lesson, and then next issue things are back to normal? Illusion of change.

New characters introduced, and old ones sent away/killed? Illusion of change (expect in Gwen's case, particularly, because readers--and later, WRITERS-- refused to let her go).

Didn't really intend to spark a debate about why they killed Gwen... that's really not the focus of my point.

The bottom line debate (as you are defining it) is, should Peter have STAYED a teen-ager or not. It's obvious that his creator did not intend for him to forever be 15. However slow or fast it happened, Peter was intended, from the get-go, to grow past that.

HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that the writers have an obligation to write him into senility. Spidey growing beyond a certain point is not a logical conclusion either.

So, while I don't agree with your arguement -- that the character should not have progressed past high school -- I do agree that the character was meant to stay this side of middle-age.

 

[Themanofbat]

The main reason Gwen was killed was because Marvel knew that it was going to have to be a break-up, Gwen's death, or marriage.

Gwen's character was going to die immediately after ASM #90 where she became a two-dimensional "I hate Spider-Man" screaming little girl that Stan didn't know what to do with her anymore. And when she was placed in the hands of a young 19 year old Gerry Conway (who couldn't write his way out of a paper bag), he didn't know to properly develop her character so it was decided to have her killed.

This proves my point. It's not about what you want.

Spider-Man was created to be a youthful character. But because a whole bunch of immature readers just won't let go when they get bored with that basic concept, they drag Spider-Man to places he's not supposed to go. And look where's that's gotten us.

To borrow a Byrne-ism:

Let's say the original, youthful, single version of Spider-Man was a sleek sportscar.

You enjoy riding in the car when you're young, but as you get older and have a family, do you:

A. Leave the sportscat behind and buy a stationwagon that the whole family can fit in?

Or...

B. Take the sportscar to the dealer and demand that it be retrofitted into a stationwagon so that you can keep riding in it (as opposed to selling it to a young, single person who would love to drive a sportscar)?


Most of today's fanbase has opted for "B". And that's wrong.

So if I choose option "A", I'm basically walking away from a character that I've grown fond of because his stories have become repetitive fodder for the next generation.

I'm sorry, but after reading Spidey comics for over 31 years, that's not an option.

I want to read good stories about Spider-Man, his cast of villains, new & old alike, and his supporting cast. The ability to do that with incorporating growth and change (or the illusion of change) can easily be done by good writers.

However, you seem to have this "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude, so I'm ending my attempt to try and have a civil conversation with you.

Good luck with all your endeavors...

Best regards,

Mike aka TMoB

 

[Gregatron]

Didn't really intend to spark a debate about why they killed Gwen... that's really not the focus of my point.

The bottom line debate (as you are defining it) is, should Peter have STAYED a teen-ager or not. It's obvious that his creator did not intend for him to forever be 15. However slow or fast it happened, Peter was intended, from the get-go, to grow past that.

HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that the writers have an obligation to write him into senility. Spidey growing beyond a certain point is not a logical conclusion either.

So, while I don't agree with your arguement -- that the character should not have progressed past high school -- I do agree that the character was meant to stay this side of middle-age.

It seems clear that right after Stan and Steve aged Peter into college, they realized it was a mistake, and would eventually detract from the character.


But, the college-age Peter STILL WORKED. And if he'd stayed there forever, things might have been okay.


Oh, and Spider-Man doesn't have to age into senility. He's already aged into stupidity. Just ask Petey.


"Yay! Petey don' like sernilitry! Mer like strupiditly! Me bash capt-un pan-american in da face! Then me use org-an-ick webbies on anyone else who dun't like orionedman! Petey shin his boots really shinny!"

 

[Gregatron]

So if I choose option "A", I'm basically walking away from a character that I've grown fond of because his stories have become repetitive fodder for the next generation.

I'm sorry, but after reading Spidey comics for over 31 years, that's not an option.

I want to read good stories about Spider-Man, his cast of villains, new & old alike, and his supporting cast. The ability to do that with incorporating growth and change (or the illusion of change) can easily be done by good writers.

However, you seem to have this "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude, so I'm ending my attempt to try and have a civil conversation with you.

Good luck with all your endeavors...

Best regards,

Mike aka TMoB

"I want" "I want" "I want". Selfish, selfish, selfish.


Old-style Spider-Man stories may be boring to people who have read for, I don't know, 30 years, but to kids who have never seen the character before, no.

Back in the day, people (kids) read for a few years and then grew up and left. The readership had a consistent turnover rate. They didn't stay around long enough to get bored, or to ask why Robin didn't age.

Now, we have one or two generations who just won't let go, and writers who feel the same way.


"Gee, I've been reading Superman comics for 68 years, and I'm bored. He should turn evil and kill people for a while. And he should have an illegitimate child with Lois, too! That'll surely retain my interest, and it will be kewl!"

 

[Themanofbat]

"I want" "I want" "I want". Selfish, selfish, selfish.

Old-style Spider-Man stories may be boring to people who have read for, I don't know, 30 years, but to kids who have never seen the character before, no.

"Gee, I've been reading Superman comics for 70 years, and I'm bored. He should turn evil and kill people for a while. And he should have an illegitimate child with Lois, too! That'll surely retain my interest, and it will be kewl!"

I think I speak for everyone when they say they WANT good stories.

Old style Spider-Man stories do not bore me, but that doesn't mean I want to read the same type of tale ALL the time. Growth and change, or the illusion of growth and change can be good. Good writers should be able to tell fun and entertaining Spider-Man stories for 30 year old readers and new readers alike. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

And I never said I was bored with Spider-Man comics despite my 31 years of monthly reading. And that golden helmet you're wearing must be cutting off the oxygen supply to your brain if you think at ANY point in time I suggested that I want Spider-Man to act completely out of character. Peter has been acting within character during this Civil War business, he's made some rash decisions based on family support (which he never had the luxury of before), and he will see the error of his ways sooner or later and this could be a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to return him to his untrusted loner self in the Marvel Universe. Only time will tell.

And maybe if you can take those narrow-minded blinders off, maybe you can enjoy the ride as well.

But somehow.... I doubt it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Captivated]

It seems clear that right after Stan and Steve aged Peter into college, they realized it was a mistake, and would eventually detract from the character.

Clear to who?! That is your ASSUMPTION, based on your BIAS. I see nothing that would indicate that was their thought process... in fact, just the OPPOSITE.

Again, the only regret indicated was concerning the SPEED of growth.

But, the college-age Peter STILL WORKED. And if he'd stayed there forever, things might have been okay.

I thought you were arguing a "Spider-Man was meant to be a perpetual teen-ager" point...

Oh, and Spider-Man doesn't have to age into senility. He's already aged into stupidity. Just ask Petey.

No one likes the fact that many of today's writers are dumbing down the character... but that's a DIFFERENT subject entirely.

"Yay! Petey don' like sernilitry! Mer like strupiditly! Me bash capt-un pan-american in da face! Then me use org-an-ick webbies on anyone else who dun't like orionedman! Petey shin his boots really shinny!"

I understand you are trying to say that Peter is being written like a dumbass... but I don't know which I find more annoying...

 

[Gregatron]

I think I speak for everyone when they say they WANT good stories.

Old style Spider-Man stories do not bore me, but that doesn't mean I want to read the same type of tale ALL the time. Growth and change, or the illusion of growth and change can be good. Good writers should be able to tell fun and entertaining Spider-Man stories for 30 year old readers and new readers alike. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

And I never said I was bored with Spider-Man comics despite my 31 years of monthly reading. And that golden helmet you're wearing must be cutting off the oxygen supply to your brain if you think at ANY point in time I suggested that I want Spider-Man to act completely out of character. Peter has been acting within character during this Civil War business, he's made some rash decisions based on family support (which he never had the luxury of before), and he will see the error of his ways sooner or later and this could be a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to return him to his untrusted loner self in the Marvel Universe. Only time will tell.

And maybe if you can take those narrow-minded blinders off, maybe you can enjoy the ride as well.

But somehow.... I doubt it.

Have a nice day.

Wasn't referring to you, specifically. Don't take my statements personally.

And I thought you were done trying to have a "civil" discussion with me, eh?

The writers are paid big bucks because they are rock stars riding a wave of hype, not because they've actually done the characters any good.

Instead, they'll leave a mess for the next creative team to clean up, as opposed to leaving things where they found them.

But who cares, right? As long as they get to "do their take" and "leave their mark" on a book, right?


"Yay! Petey want to leave mark! Petey goona pee on stuff! Petey like goldun hellmut! Peter bop cap-un-amarica in the gut, then kik him in the nutz! Cuz Petey a big-time superdood! KEWL!"

 

[Gregatron]

Clear to who?! That is your ASSUMPTION, based on your BIAS. I see nothing that would indicate that was their thought process... in fact, just the OPPOSITE.

Again, the only regret indicated was concerning the SPEED of growth.


I thought you were arguing a "Spider-Man was meant to be a perpetual teen-ager" point...


No one likes the fact that many of today's writers are dumbing down the character... but that's a DIFFERENT subject entirely.

I understand you are trying to say that Peter is being written like a dumbass... but I don't know which I find more annoying...

Negative reinforcement, friend. Every time you pick up a Civil War or Spider-Man book, you will now think of Petey and his Golden Helmet Award.

"Yay! Me big star! Me gonnas crak internutz in halfzies! Joey Q sez so!"

 

[Captivated]

Negative reinforcement, friend. Every time you pick up a Civil War or Spider-Man book, you will now think of Petey and his Golden Helmet Award.

No... Not even if I had read half of that nonsensical gibberish... I won't.

Mer don' like strupiditly... Mer ignor u now.

 

[Gregatron]

No... Not even if I had read half of that nonsensical gibberish... I won't.

Mer don' like strupiditly... Mer ignor u now.

"Nonsenzicalll? Petey just acting the way he do in Joey Q-verse! Bah! Petey bored now. He inist that this forum gwow and change like he did."

 

[Themanofbat]

And I thought you were done trying to have a "civil" discussion with me, eh?

What can I say... I'm a sucker for punishment.

 

[Gregatron]

What can I say... I'm a sucker for punishment.

Important safety tip: It's just a comic book. We should all be civil and friendly to each other, even if we disagree.


"Petey! Yeay! Letz all be freindz! And letz buy 17 varioants of CivIEll Waar # 2while we's at it! All hail Joey Q and JMZ!"

 

[RichardEdlung]

Like it or not, kids are NOT reading Spider-Man comics anymore. Children WON'T be reading Amazing any time soon, reguardless of what's currently happening to the character so long as the books cost 3 or more dollars a book. What point is there in writing Amazing for kids when they're too busy playing a "mature" X-box game and MAYBE reading some pseudo-deep anime.

This is how I see things... Change is ok when it's natural or needed, and not just change for changes sake. If I were writing Spider-Man, I COULD have him be bitten by a radioactive ballerina and give him a new tutu for a costume, but should I?

I'm enjoying Civil War, and I think if they don't drop the ball they'll get two or three good stories out of the unmasking, but after that they are doing some serious long term damage to the character.

 

[Gregatron]

Like it or not, kids are NOT reading Spider-Man comics anymore. Children WON'T be reading Amazing any time soon, reguardless of what's currently happening to the character so long as the books cost 3 or more dollars a book. What point is there in writing Amazing for kids when they're too busy playing a "mature" X-box game and MAYBE reading some pseudo-deep anime.

This is how I see things... Change is ok when it's natural or needed, and not just change for changes sake. If I were writing Spider-Man, I COULD have him be bitten by a radioactive ballerina and give him a new tutu for a costume, but should I?

I'm enjoying Civil War, and I think if they don't drop the ball they'll get two or three good stories out of the unmasking, but after that they are doing some serious long term damage to the character.

Problem # 1: Bad writing/growth/change.

Problem # 2: The Direct Market.

 

[Pyro Man]

Well, I don't really have much to say that hasn't already been said other than the fact that I've been reading comics faithfully for about six years now, which isn't long I know, and spider-man's always been my favorite hero, and well, quite frankly I hate what they've done to him.

That is all.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Peter was under a LOT of pressure to unmask by his friend and comrade Tony. He relunctantly did it despite his misgivings because his wife, his aunt & an old friend told him it was the right thing to do. Peter Parker is not the first person, fiction or otherwise, to make a rash decision under pressure nor will he be the last.

And despite all the hatred from the so-called "real Spider-Man fans", the real Spider-Man is in these books and he's made a decision that he was convinced was the right thing to do. And it's in my opinion, as it's being hinted at all over the internet, that Peter will see the error of his ways and change sides.

That doesn't mean that he's been acting "out of character"... since when is making mistakes "out of character"????

Sometimes I wonder if we're all reading the same comics...

Good post, as usual, TMOB. Agreed.

 

[Gregatron]

No... Not even if I had read half of that nonsensical gibberish... I won't.

Mer don' like strupiditly... Mer ignor u now.

Ignoring people is for cowards. I ignore no one. It's best to see all posts in a thread, even when they're annoying or stupid. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's no way to live.

 

[USMC]

I want to read good stories about Spider-Man, his cast of villains, new & old alike, and his supporting cast.

Don't we all...

 

[Chris Wallace]

Here's a thought on the whole Registration Act matter:
Would it really change anything? A superhero didn't kill all those people; a villain did. And they CANNOT be controlled. Accidents happen. People make mistakes, regardless of training or experience. The Avengers could have just as easily been in that situation & had it get out of hand. Cops & soldiers in the real world make mistakes all the time. Innocent bystanders get killed all the time. Reining the heroes in & giving them badges guarantees nothing.

 

[Themanofbat]

Here's a thought on the whole Registration Act matter:
Would it really change anything? A superhero didn't kill all those people; a villain did. And they CANNOT be controlled. Accidents happen. People make mistakes, regardless of training or experience. The Avengers could have just as easily been in that situation & had it get out of hand. Cops & soldiers in the real world make mistakes all the time. Innocent bystanders get killed all the time. Reining the heroes in & giving them badges guarantees nothing.

The government doesn't want the registration to prevent innocent deaths, they want to hold someone accountable when they do die.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I get that; but it's bull.

 

[Norman Osborn]

I get that; but it's bull.

Why do you feel it's bull?.....simple scenario, a hostage taking at a convenience store....place is surrounded by cops.....I decide to play hero, rush in, criminals get trigger happy and three hostages are killed .....am I not held responsible for my actions?......well why would a guy who was bitten by a radioactive gecko be less responsible?....cause he can wear a mask and flee the scene quicker than I?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating everything Marvel has done to get to "Civil War" (I've heard many intelligent posters defend the unmasking but as of yet have not heard an intelligent defence.....nobody should take that personally..it's just my opinion) but the Registration Act itself makes perfect sense......also just my opinion

 

[JackBauer]

The government doesn't want the registration to prevent innocent deaths, they want to hold someone accountable when they do die.

in the end, it's the villain who's to be held accountable. it certainly was in the Stamford incident.

 

[JackBauer]

Why do you feel it's bull?.....simple scenario, a hostage taking at a convenience store....place is surrounded by cops.....I decide to play hero, rush in, criminals get trigger happy and three hostages are killed .....am I not held responsible for my actions?......well why would a guy who was bitten by a radioactive gecko be less responsible?....cause he can wear a mask and flee the scene quicker than I?

difference is... Spider-Man can stop them fast enough before there are any victims.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I get that; but it's bull.

Why is it bull? You're telling me that if that was YOUR child on the playground in Stamford, you wouldnt want someone held accountable?

At least the Avengers and FF have government liasons and public addresses where they can be reached....but for all practical purposes, who the hell are the "New Warriors"? (well, in all fairness; i didnt read the last series, but in the original one, they were serious "underground" vigilantes)...whats to stop them from doing serious damage, even un-intentionally, and then just disappearing into the night?

Looking at it from a real world perspective, Iron Man is totally correct, imo. (although as a comic geek, im rooting for Cap).