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I feel like Batman Begins and Joker are the same on a conceptual level...

Brightburn1985

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Because Christopher Nolan wanted to make a superhero story but told in a realistic fashion. And that's what Batman Begins is...I feel like Joker is the natural evolution of that. Except Joker himself is not a superhero, but he's not a clear-cut villain either. Joker (2019) deals in more shades of grey than Batman Begins ever did.
 
Joker was clearly lifted off of Darren Aronofsky’s Year One script...

kidding...

but now that I think about it...
 
The idea of Gotham's corruption being indirectly responsible for the Wayne murders is a big similarity.
 
Because Christopher Nolan wanted to make a superhero story but told in a realistic fashion. And that's what Batman Begins is...I feel like Joker is the natural evolution of that. Except Joker himself is not a superhero, but he's not a clear-cut villain either. Joker (2019) deals in more shades of grey than Batman Begins ever did.

???

Arthur is shown to be an exceptionally evil person in Joker. I don’t think there’s any shades of grey in just how evil he is.
 
???

Arthur is shown to be an exceptionally evil person in Joker. I don’t think there’s any shades of grey in just how evil he is.


My point is, Joker wasn't completely evil. You understand why he is, the way he is. Most people wouldn't react to their problems the way Joker would but that's the point. The man was mentally ill and he couldn't get the proper care that he desperately needed.
 
:funny:
the fights really sucked in batman begins didn't it?

Unfortunately so true! There was such promise but most of the fight scenes in the trilogy were pretty lackluster and boring. Compare them to the amazing fights in Daredevil or Punisher or even BVS; I really hope Reeves can really put up some kick ass action with Pattinson
 
Unfortunately so true! There was such promise but most of the fight scenes in the trilogy were pretty lackluster and boring. Compare them to the amazing fights in Daredevil or Punisher or even BVS; I really hope Reeves can really put up some kick ass action with Pattinson

never...ever...let christopher nolan direct a kung fu movie!
 
Unfortunately so true! There was such promise but most of the fight scenes in the trilogy were pretty lackluster and boring. Compare them to the amazing fights in Daredevil or Punisher or even BVS; I really hope Reeves can really put up some kick ass action with Pattinson

Nolan's a tremendous director, but weak fight scenes and wooden performances, particularly from female characters, are valid critiques.

And it's not even necessarily a bad thing, Kubrick is a heavy influence for him and he definitely had wooden performances throughout most of his films. But he also made it work for him, most of Kubrick's films have a detached, cold feel to them. Nolan , I think, strives for a little more in that regard, but the results can still come off somewhat empty...
 
Wooden performances? Nolan has actually crafted some of the most compelling performances of these actor’s careers.

Robin Williams in Insomnia.

Christian Bale in Batman Begins and The Prestige.

Hugh Jackman in The Prestige.

Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight.

Tom Hardy in Inception, Dark Knight Rises, Dunkirk

Anne Hathaway in Dark Knight Rises

Matthew McConaughey in Interstellar.
 
Because Christopher Nolan wanted to make a superhero story but told in a realistic fashion. And that's what Batman Begins is...I feel like Joker is the natural evolution of that. Except Joker himself is not a superhero, but he's not a clear-cut villain either. Joker (2019) deals in more shades of grey than Batman Begins ever did.

I don't really agree they're the same concept. Batman Begins might be a superhero story told in realistic (relatively speaking) fashion, but it's still a superhero story. Batman Begins and even The Dark Knight or hell even Logan or Deadpool are all still much more conventional CBMs than Joker, which is basically Taxi Driver meets King of Comedy thrown into a blender with some Joker comic book influences.
 
Wooden performances? Nolan has actually crafted some of the most compelling performances of these actor’s careers.

Robin Williams in Insomnia.

Christian Bale in Batman Begins and The Prestige.

Hugh Jackman in The Prestige.

Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight.

Tom Hardy in Inception, Dark Knight Rises, Dunkirk

Anne Hathaway in Dark Knight Rises

Matthew McConaughey in Interstellar.

The only ones of those I'd say are exceptional performances or among the best of someone's career are Ledger in TDK and McConaughey in Interstellar. Hardy in Dunkirk isn't much of a role, and I'd say (some will argue with me) that Bane is a fairly nothing part for him too, certainly nowhere near some of his performances in stuff like Bronson, Warrior, or Legend. Williams is much more exceptional in Good Will Hunting and One Hour Photo.
 
Wooden performances? Nolan has actually crafted some of the most compelling performances of these actor’s careers.

Robin Williams in Insomnia.

Christian Bale in Batman Begins and The Prestige.

Hugh Jackman in The Prestige.

Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight.

Tom Hardy in Inception, Dark Knight Rises, Dunkirk

Anne Hathaway in Dark Knight Rises

Matthew McConaughey in Interstellar.

The only ones of those I'd say are exceptional performances or among the best of someone's career are Ledger in TDK and McConaughey in Interstellar. Hardy in Dunkirk isn't much of a role, and I'd say (some will argue with me) that Bane is a fairly nothing part for him too, certainly nowhere near some of his performances in stuff like Bronson, Warrior, or Legend. Williams is much more exceptional in Good Will Hunting and One Hour Photo.

Agreed with Schlosser 100%, not to mention that I also said "particularly from female characters" who Catwoman is obviously the one memorable exception. As in to say it's not completely forgettable, not that it was great or anything.

I thought she was ok but again, a femme fatal type should exude some form of sensuality, and I've never really gotten that from any Nolan film. I'm sure he'll attempt his Eyes wide shut at some point though...
 
I enjoyed Hathaway as Selina, but even in the same year she was more exceptional in Les Mis. Still a bright spot in TDKR though.
 
I was thinking after seeing it how both films had a similar "levels of villains", who were at least symbolically defeated by Joker, Falcone/Scarecrow/Ra's, Randall/Murray/Thomas.
 
I was thinking after seeing it how both films had a similar "levels of villains", who were at least symbolically defeated by Joker, Falcone/Scarecrow/Ra's, Randall/Murray/Thomas.

Joker doesn't really have full-on "villains", apart from ultimately Arthur/Joker himself, but you could interpret it that way, especially from his perspective.

You could even equate the dudebros on the subway to the goons at the docks, some run-of-the-mill guys he starts out with.
 
Joker doesn't really have full-on "villains", apart from ultimately Arthur/Joker himself, but you could interpret it that way, especially from his perspective.

You could even equate the dudebros on the subway to the goons at the docks, some run-of-the-mill guys he starts out with.

yeah like - dudebros/dock goons - basic fodder

Randall/Falcone - person who used to intimidate him but now is beneath him

Crane/Murray - a peer - (costumed freak/celebrity)

Wayne/Ra's - powerful string puller
 
its funny u say this cuz this 2 films are in my top3 of CMB with Constantine, my holy trinity
 

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