The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[gwynplaine]

And btw there are a lot of people who don't find Gacy interesting at all and consider him to be just a sick f**k (Quoting Nepenthes) and who believe that this weird and morbid interest that those killers seem to generate is just the reflection of a sick society as well. Whatever turns you on, dude, but once again no need for name calling.

 

[ronny]

I was just trying to say that if the Joker was just a Gacy wannabe onscreen it wouldn't be that interesting to me.
And I don't think calling me a moron was completely necessary.

Let's be fair though. If anything Gacy was a Joker wannabe. Remember, this is a character who goes back to the 1940's. Whilst Gacy was dressing up like an overfed **** long after the World War 2 days.

 

[Marx]

What are we talking about here? John Gacy? Jeffrey Dahmer? Hannibal Lecter? Alex De Large? Jack The Ripper? Sweeney Todd? Mr. Magoo?

You know who I think should be used as inspiration......the character called "The Joker" from the comic books, or is that asking for too much?

Now THAT'S just asking entirely too much! You should know better Socko!

 

[gwynplaine]

Let's be fair though. If anything Gacy was a Joker wannabe. Remember, this is a character who goes back to the 1940's. Whilst Gacy was dressing up like an overfed **** long after the World War 2 days.

Yes but that was not my point. In a Batman story I want to see the Joker and Nolan said he based the character on his 1st two appeareances which I couldn't be more happy about. Now that we know he wears make-up he could have been just a Gacy wannabe but from what we've seen so far I know we are getting more and I have the feeling that we'll be getting the most faithful incarnation of the character on a screen so far and that also makes me very happy. Maybe now would be a good time to get back on topic (even tho we're not that far offt: ).

 

[ronny]

Yes but that was not my point. In a Batman story I want to see the Joker and Nolan said he based the character on his 1st two appeareances which I couldn't be more happy about.

I do see your point. The Joker is an established character, one that is so rich and detailed that real life influences should never be overstated. The key is finding balance. Between showman and serial killer. Between grinning loon and crazed gunman. The comics do this well and, until now, other forms of media have failed. They have failed because they were either too camp, inhibited by a permanent smile or could not show The Joker killing anyone. Seems as though this is being rectified, don't let people fool you into thinking that this is an "emo Joker" or even a "Crowker". All signs point to him being more than a killer, he's like a circus ringleader, a pied piper leading the coppers on a merry dance. Charles Manson wearing a red wig, big shoes and singing Michael Jackson songs. Can't do fairer than that.

 

[gwynplaine]

I do see your point. The Joker is an established character, one that is so rich and detailed that real life influences should never be overstated. The key is finding balance. Between showman and serial killer. Between grinning loon and crazed gunman. The comics do this well and, until now, other forms of media have failed. They have failed because they were either too camp, inhibited by a permanent smile or could not show The Joker killing anyone. Seems as though this is being rectified, don't let people fool you into thinking that this is an "emo Joker" or even a "Crowker". All signs point to him being more than a killer, he's like a circus ringleader, a pied piper leading the coppers on a merry dance. Charles Manson wearing a red wig, big shoes and singing Michael Jackson songs. Can't do fairer than that.

Great post. I completely agree with you.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I agree entirely. This is an intellectual property that has been with us for so long that a diverse range of new approaches could be taken, without mongrelising the influences.

Right on Reg. Hannibal Lecter, Alex Delarge, and Mr. Magoo are great characters. But why would anyone use them as influences for the Joker when you've got nearly 70 years of comic books and graphic novels to look at?

I do see your point. The Joker is an established character, one that is so rich and detailed that real life influences should never be overstated. The key is finding balance. Between showman and serial killer. Between grinning loon and crazed gunman. The comics do this well and, until now, other forms of media have failed. They have failed because they were either too camp, inhibited by a permanent smile or could not show The Joker killing anyone. Seems as though this is being rectified, don't let people fool you into thinking that this is an "emo Joker" or even a "Crowker". All signs point to him being more than a killer, he's like a circus ringleader, a pied piper leading the coppers on a merry dance. Charles Manson wearing a red wig, big shoes and singing Michael Jackson songs. Can't do fairer than that.

That's the one thing that stopped TAS Joker from being the best, but he was able to kill in Mask of the Phantasm. Which is still my #1 favorite version of the character. He was about perfect in every way and he was only playing a supporting role! That one will remain my favorite incarnation but I'm hoping The Dark Knight's Joker will be right behind him.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Right on Reg. Hannibal Lecter, Alex Delarge, and Mr. Magoo are great characters. But why would anyone use them as influences for the Joker when you've got nearly 70 years of comic books and graphic novels to look at?

It's a good point, but I think that Ledger might have looked to on-screen characters such as Alex DeLarge just to get a general idea of how to play the Joker in a "live-action" sense, as opposed to looking at pictures and then figuring out how to play the character. I think Alex DeLarge's characterization is just a reference, because that character has proven to work, so I see no reason why Ledger wouldn't aspire to partially emulating such a character.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I was kidding about that last one btw


And that's understandable, I agree.

 

[gwynplaine]

Right on Reg. Hannibal Lecter, Alex Delarge, and Mr. Magoo are great characters. But why would anyone use them as influences for the Joker when you've got nearly 70 years of comic books and graphic novels to look at?



That's the one thing that stopped TAS Joker from being the best, but he was able to kill in Mask of the Phantasm. Which is still my #1 favorite version of the character. He was about perfect in every way and he was only playing a supporting role! That one will remain my favorite incarnation but I'm hoping The Dark Knight's Joker will be right behind him.

I don't understand. Of course Heath's main influence is the Joker but he is the one who mentionned Alex and Sid, whatever helps him get the closest rendition of the character as possible. Actors often use other outside references or influences to nourish a character, it's nothing unusual.
Depp based his performances on pirats but I loved that he threw a little Keith Richards and Pepe le phew in there.

 

[gwynplaine]

It's a good point, but I think that Ledger might have looked to on-screen characters such as Alex DeLarge just to get a general idea of how to play the Joker in a "live-action" sense, as opposed to looking at pictures and then figuring out how to play the character. I think Alex DeLarge's characterization is just a reference, because that character has proven to work, so I see no reason why Ledger wouldn't aspire to partially emulating such a character.

My point and probably better said than I didt: .

 

[Mercurius]

I keep looking at your Conrad Veidt avvy and can't stop thinking how brilliant a Joker this is.

I mean, Gwynplaine. t:

 

[gwynplaine]

I keep looking at your Conrad Veidt avvy and can't stop thinking how brilliant a Joker this is.

I mean, Gwynplaine. t:

I agree with you . Devan made the avvy for me.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I don't understand. Of course Heath's main influence is the Joker but he is the one who mentionned Alex and Sid, whatever helps him get the closest rendition of the character as possible. Actors often use other outside references or influences to nourish a character, it's nothing unusual.
Depp based his performances on pirats but I loved that he threw a little Keith Richards and Pepe le phew in there.

I understand all of what you're saying except the bold. What is defined as the "closest rendition of the character," and how would one come about achieving it? I'm simply saying, whatever that closest rendition may be, I believe it is achieved by using The Joker as the main influence foremost.

And 'pirates' is a really broad area, that coupled with Sparrow being an original character pre-Depp doesn't really due that comparison much justice but I understand what you mean.

 

[gwynplaine]

I understand all of what you're saying except the bold. What is defined as the "closest rendition of the character," and how would one come about achieving it? I'm simply saying, whatever that closest rendition may be, I believe it is achieved by using The Joker as the main influence foremost.

And 'pirates' is a really broad area, that coupled with Sparrow being an original character pre-Depp doesn't really due that comparison much justice but I understand what you mean.

Cool. And you're right about the closest rendition pt, wrong choice of words (I apologise, english is not my first language).
I read somewhere that Jack used Bugs Bunny as an inspiration, of course his main source of inspiration was the Joker but I also can see a little bit of that wonderful cartoon mischief maker in his interpretation and I like it.

 

[Mr. Socko]

When you said Jack used Bugs as an inspiration I at first thought you were talking about Johnny Depp as Jack Sparrow lol

But I would say that speaks volumes about their interpretations. Jack sectionally used Bugs Bunny as an influence while Heath sectionally used Clockwork Orange as an influence. Admittedly I am more partial to the direction of the Joker in B'89 but I'd say I prefer the character of The Joker being more like Alex DeLarge than Bugs Bunny.

 

[The Shape]

When you said Jack used Bugs as an inspiration I at first thought you were talking about Johnny Depp as Jack Sparrow lol

But I would say that speaks volumes about their interpretations. Jack sectionally used Bugs Bunny as an influence while Heath sectionally used Clockwork Orange as an influence. Admittedly I am more partial to the direction of the Joker in B'89 but I'd say I prefer the character of The Joker being more like Alex DeLarge than Bugs Bunny.

How can you be more partial to the direction of Joker in B'89 when you haven't seen TDK? Unless you mean strictly appearance-wise.

 

[Prefix]

How can you be more partial to the direction of Joker in B'89 when you haven't seen TDK? Unless you mean strictly appearance-wise.

Because we already know what direction this Joker will be taken in. Its possible to compare the directions of the characters at this point, but not the outcome.

 

[The Joker]

I'm pretty sure Socko means appearance wise. He prefers his Joker a clean, sophisticated looking man.

 

[The Shape]

Because we already know what direction this Joker will be taken in. Its possible to compare the directions of the characters at this point, but not the outcome.

We've only seen maybe 30 seconds total of footage of the Joker out of a 2 and half hour movie, along with several stills. Yes, we know the direction they've taken with him, but how does one prefer either this interpretation or B'89's without having seen TDK?

 

[The Shape]

I'm pretty sure Socko means appearance wise. He prefers his Joker a clean, sophisticated looking man.

I figured that.

 

[Mr. Socko]

How can you be more partial to the direction of Joker in B'89 when you haven't seen TDK? Unless you mean strictly appearance-wise.

That yes, but I was actually meaning certain qualities of the Joker present in B'89/TAS/Comics that do not seem to be in tact, or at least as much in TDK(and I do not even mean perma-white as most of you are thinking right now). However, I hope I'm wrong about that, because Joker wearing a nurses outfit while blowing up a hospital seems to indicate he will also have that sense of humor besides just being the killer with knives.

And of'course all of the above boils down to how he is characterized not acted, as I already believe Heath's performance as the Joker has out-done Jack and the others. As I was just saying, he performed this as a method actor. The concern comes from the (hopefully small) chance that the Joker is characterized as just a slaughterer dressed as a clown for the heck of it, when I believe there is certainly much more than that when it comes to Joker.

As for his appearance, I'm just fine with this look, I think it fits this version well...the concern arises as to whether 'this version' is devoid of certain comic book elements. But even if it is, it just simply wouldn't be a preference of mine, I wouldn't argue the character isn't 'right,' as this is a just as valid version of the character as any other discluding The Batman. But right now I'm just going on and on and I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore so I'll just stop here.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I'm pretty sure Socko means appearance wise. He prefers his Joker a clean, sophisticated looking man.

It ain't the comic book but I think this look is just fine, it's all there. Besides the white skin, yuh yuh yuht:

We've only seen maybe 30 seconds total of footage of the Joker out of a 2 and half hour movie, along with several stills. Yes, we know the direction they've taken with him, but how does one prefer either this interpretation or B'89's without having seen TDK?

We're all just going by 'what we know of to date.' Once you know the mood, setting, interpretation, etc I'd say it's okay to make a first judgment(but final judgment doesn't come until we've seen the movie). When I say such things I usually precede it with "what I know of so far."

 

[Prefix]

We've only seen maybe 30 seconds total of footage of the Joker out of a 2 and half hour movie, along with several stills. Yes, we know the direction they've taken with him, but how does one prefer either this interpretation or B'89's without having seen TDK?

You can prefer an approach to something without making a judgement on the final outcome.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Something tells me that Solidus is lurking, typing up this extremely long post about Joker's skin right nowt: