The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[GlasgowBat]

It's commonly supposed that the incident occured in a playing card factory: bleaches are used in the production of cards, paper etc to make them whiter than white.

hmm, i always thought that was a bit coincidental, but i still bought it. i guess the origin was never a huge factor to me.

 

[PyroChamber]

If Ledger's Joker does turn out to be a great version of the Joker, do you think they'll making him in the comics more like Ledger's version; particularly with the scars?

 

[ronny]

If Ledger's Joker does turn out to be a great version of the Joker, do you think they'll making him in the comics more like Ledger's version; particularly with the scars?

I sincerely hope so.

 

[The Guard]

Well, you guys have said it yourself; you would welcome an alternate Joker origin with open arms, so how can the chemical bath origin be definitive? If it was definitive, then there would be no turning back. That would be the end of that. Finito. End of story. But, for me, this is all about our own personal preference. If you want to abide by DC canon, then by all means, enjoy the chemical bath origin. But fans are well within their rights to tell DC to cram their "official canon" right up their jack hole.

I said I would accept something as canon, not that I would welcome any change with open arms. You're making a lot of assumptions. First, an alternate Joker origin would have to be sufficiently interesting and relevant for me to welcome it with open arms.

Here is a definition of the word "definitive":

1. conclusive and final: providing a final decision that will not be questioned or changed

See, the keyword here is "A". "A definition", meaning there are multiple definitions.

Even though it looks like Saint beat me to it, here are some more. I have bolded the one that we were referring to.

clearly defined or formulated

of recognized authority or excellence; "the definitive work on
Greece"; "classical methods of navigation"

supplying or being a final or conclusive settlement; "a definitive verdict"; "a determinate answer to the problem"

So I take it the chemical bath origin is final, unquestionable and will never be changed?

No, as that is not the context we used the word definitive in. Although there don't seem to be any signs of that changing on the horizon.

And for you information, I do have a few ideas of my own, but at the same time I don't want my Joker to have an origin because I enjoy the mystical aspect of the character.

Ok, so, for the last time, what are your ideas for a possible Joker origin?

I mean, you've just gone and made one yourself by saying that the chemical bath origin is definitive -- as in it will never, ever, ever be changed and is totally unquestionable.

No, because I've already pointed out that was not the context we were speaking in.

 

[StylishHokie21]

So I think most of us have agreed on the chemical bath being the definitive origin?

 

[The Joker]

So I think most of us have agreed on the chemical bath being the definitive origin?

Considering it's been his only origin for his permawhite skin for decades, it'd be pretty stupid to think otherwise.

 

[Saint]

This is probably a good time to mention that in DC canon there is no longer any question as to who Joker was or how he came to be, thanks to Batman Confidential. The arc "Lovers and Madmen" was described by DC as being the true origin of the Joker. Frankly, I preferred The Killing Joke, but it is what it is. In the context that the word "definitive" applies to DC canon, it is definitive (until somebody retcons it).

 

[StylishHokie21]

Exactly. The end....

 

[GlasgowBat]

yeah, this discussion is pretty much done. we are only going to repeat ourselves, again and again.

what else can we talk about?

does anyone think this continous appliance of make-up will result in perma-white of some description? what would you think about such a development?

 

[Street Vendor]

does anyone think this continous appliance of make-up will result in perma-white of some description? what would you think about such a development?

I think that's what Michael Caine said.

 

[StylishHokie21]

Possibly. It's hard to tell what will happen.

Spoiler

Hasn't been said that he never takes off the make-up off the entire movie and it rots on his face?

 

[Mr. Superhero]

^ I love how people use the spoiler tags in a spoiler forum!

 

[StylishHokie21]

^ I love how people use the spoiler tags in a spoiler forum!

Does it bother you that much? Honestly?

 

[nickyg641]

I don't see why. It's no more ridiculous than any other comic book origin, especially since there are chemicals that bleach skin in the real world (though the efficacy and survivability of being submersed in them for any period of time is questionable). I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just not sure why Joker's origin seems to come under more scrutiny than other equally (or more) ridiculous origins.

Because Nolan apparently doesn't like it.

And, again, I don't see how it ruins the Joker. I don't know what exactly is so demystifying about the chemical origin. Does it clear up some things that I think I would like to be left a bit more mysterious? Yeah, probably. But does it completely destroy any mystery the characrer may have had? No.

A backstory,that's different. That's when you start learning about what kind of person the Joker was before his transformation, that's what should be left a mystery. The chemical bath origin itself, in its most basic, original form, was merely explaining how the Joker's outward appearance came to be. It didn't reveal his identity, it didn't show you what he looked like, you didn't even know what kind of person he was. Just his outward appearance.

And, personally, I kind of like knowing this little bit about the Joker. Because it just opens the door to so many more questions. Knowing this little bit makes you want to know more, but you can't, because all evidence of his previous life was erased with that chemical bath. And knowing that makes him all the more tantalizing.

Not saying that I don't like the idea of the Joker just showin up and being permawhite. That's what I advocated to be the situation for TDK. The Joker show up, be permawhite, and have the characters be baffled as to why. But drop little hints here and there, something alluding to an accident of some sort, but never quite elaborating as to how he was pulled into that situation or why; little things that prime the imagination, basic blocks upon which your imagination can build the rest.

That's how I like it, and that's what I like about the vagueness of the original 1951 origin.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Just found an interesting article while surfing the net:

Despite the chemical bath origin being widely applied to explain the genetics behind the Joker's permanently bleached skin, there are still rumors and speculation amongst fans that the Joker never actually fell into the acid bath.

Many claim that it is just one possible scenario, while other scenarios have yet to be explored. Shortly after creating the Joker, a close friend to Bill Finger revealed that the Joker's parent considered one particular origin, other than the chemical bath origin. Apparently, Bill Finger was prepared to write a story on how the Joker was involved in a major chemistry accident as opposed to the "Man Behind The Red Hood" story arc. Finger originally pulled out of writing a Joker origin story because he found that the greatest aspect of the Joker was the amount of mystery surrounding the character.

To this day, various writers have considered re-telling the Joker's origin, but have found that it is a widely accepted truth that the Joker fell into the acid bath while donning the Red Hood costume. However, the exact nature of the Joker character has yet to be fully realized, according to those who worked closely with Bill Finger and Bob Kane. After the release of "The Man Behind The Red Hood", Bill Finger publicly stated that his story serves only to generate speculation as to how the Joker became permanently bleached. Furthermore, the Joker parent claimed that "The Man Behind The Red Hood" was presented as a narrative-type story, being deceptively told by the Clown Prince of Crime.

In 1988, Alan Moore released "Batman: The Killing Joke" - a story that has been hailed as the greatest Batman story of all time. Alan Moore insists that "The Killing Joke" was climatically inspired by the comments made by Bill Finger after the release of "The Man Behind The Red Hood."

"I studied the Joker a lot - especially the Red Hood story arc. I found that it was a pretty accurate origin for the Joker, but at the same time it was highly deceptive. If there is one thing that I could say to a Batman comic-book reader, it would be to never trust a Joker story."
~ Alan Moore, The Torment Magazine, 1989

 

[MadeManifest]

Wait a minute...who cares what they said they were going to do? It's all about what they did. George Lucas may have thought at one point in time that Anakin Skywalker would be a Sith who eventually became the good and kind Darth Vader.

But that's not what happened. And Bill Finger and Bob Kane CREATED the Joker. That's it...Bill Finger and Bob Kane. Bill Finger wrote the story about the chemical bath origin. It's been an integral part of the character ever since.

The chemical bath is important and is certified canon regardless, BUT even if at one point in time a writer didn't like the chemical bath origin and said something differently, what has never been debated is the fact that somehow the murderer known as the Joker has perma-white skin.

 

[TheBat812]

^ I love how people use the spoiler tags in a spoiler forum!

I, personally, am grateful.

 

[deathfromabove]

this thread has become completely idiotic.

 

[Marx]

this thread has become completely idiotic.

you just now noticed that?

 

[Keyser Soze]

^ I love how people use the spoiler tags in a spoiler forum!

Yes. Because courtesy and consideration for other posters is hilarious...

 

[deathfromabove]

Yes. Because courtesy and consideration for other posters is hilarious...

well, consider the source

and how hard is it to click a spoiler tag anyway?

 

[escobar2248]

^ I love how people use the spoiler tags in a spoiler forum!

I've always scratched my head on that one too. This is a SPOILERS forum yet the tag is there to prevent spoilers from occurring in the SPOILERS forum. God Bless America!

 

[bkey]

I try to purposely avoid spoiler tags unless its something extremely spoilerish

 

[StylishHokie21]

I don't see what the big deal is about spoiler tags. True...this is a spoiler forum, but there could be a few out there that don't want to be completely spoiled. Just as Keyser stated, it's showing courtesy and consideration to other posters.

 

[nickyg641]

I think that's what Michael Caine said.

No, Michael Caine said that the Joker simply just never removes his makeup, so it "rots" on his face. It wasn't meant to imply any sort of permanent discoloration, or deformity. Just what it sounds like: he wears it, and it starts to flake off, and produces the appearance we see in most pictures.