i thought Tony was trying to REEDEEM his mistakes

Discussion in 'Captain America: Civil War' started by 3dman27, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. auditor Registered

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    That was not a criticism of the movie though. Iron Man isn't supposed to be enlightened like superman. In a future movie Iron Man can right his wrong and forgive Bucky, and then ask for forgiveness for himself for trying to kill Bucky.
     
  2. harryoscop Registered

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    He demanded Peter come to Germany with him or he tell Aunt May he's Spider-Man. That's the definition of blackmail: Forcing an individual to do something for you in exchange of you not releasing/revealing damaging information. Why do you think Peter said "Don't tell Aunt May"?? Peter didn't even want to go to Germany hence "I can't go to Germany!" "I got homework..."
     
  3. Flint Marko Bring me Thanos

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    Nope. He didn't demand that Peter go to Germany, nor did he say he was going to tell Aunt May that Pete was Spider-man. He just said he was going to tell her "that he's going on a field trip". Try again.
     
  4. Doctor Octopus Registered

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    Agreed. It also not seriously done since Peter web his hand to door and Tony smile. It all light hearted.
     
  5. harryoscop Registered

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    Except the movie clearly illustrates that was Stark's intent with Peter's "Don't tell Aunt May". Try again (after I finish my Homework. :oldrazz:)
     
  6. MyDudeSpidey Marvel's

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    I think the "Don't tell Aunt May" was in regards to Tony taking him to Germany, not that he was going to reveal his secret identity to her.
     
  7. harryoscop Registered

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    Hmm, good point...?
     
  8. Doctor Octopus Registered

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    No blackmail there.
     
  9. frostanon Registered

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    This.
     
  10. 3dman27 super-hero wannabe

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    Spider-man had a point about somebody in the wrong thinking he's doing good
     
  11. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Yep. He just was talking to the wrong guy about it.
     
  12. Pink Ranger The North Remembers

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    Tony Stark is a vain narcissist with an addictive personality. Therefore, when he tries to redeem himself, he assumes a position of moral superiority and everyone has to follow him down the rabbit hole, whether it's his best friend, an American hero or a teenage boy from Queens.
     
  13. ARA Registered

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    The movie hardly acknowledges Tony's mistakes. Like, you'd think that him building Ultron would be a way bigger deal. But no, no one aside from him cares.
     
  14. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Well, it kind of makes sense. All the Avengers already know who Tony is, and what his flaws are. They've kind of accepted that Tony is Tony. Its Tony who is the one with the neurotic megalomania that leads him to obsessively overcorrecting.
     
  15. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Did the UN accept that Tony is Tony, too?
     
  16. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    I suspect they are suffering from almost as much "make a bad solution to a problem out of irrationality" as Tony is. Which is to say, somebody sold them on the idea of "All our panicky fears would be fixed if we just controlled the Avengers", and they haven't been forced to admit that this solves absolutely nothing and largely just makes things worse.
     
  17. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Eh, that doesn't really explain it.

    You'd expect someone to have more questions about where Ultron came from.
     
  18. Steamteck Registered

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    I also hope we get to see him hand Cap back his shield.
     
  19. Ceies Registered

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    Is it really an issue, that Tony brought in Spiderman who's a minor? I mean sure, it's not exactly the right thing to do, but then again he gave Peter specific orders to keep his distance and use his webbs. Plus despite Spidey beng reluctant to join him, noone can argue that he wasn't enthusiastic about it, so 'blackmailing' is not really the word to put it.
    Plus it really wasn't supposed to be an actual fight. Those were friends, and Tony didn't really expect it to get so much over board. You can pretty much see it in the mood of the fight. If anyone, Captains team goes way over board, something Tony couldn't have expected and even Cap didn't really see coming. I'm not even talking about Rhodey, cause that was an accident, but... well Ant-Man's fuel truck could have gone pretty wrong and Cap and Ant-Man just brushed it off with a little joke and a raised eye brow. Ant-Man pulling the wires out of Tony's suit in midflight could have gone all kinds of wrong, and the only person who actually wanted to make this a serious fight was Wanda (who actually told other characters to get more serious and don't pull their punshes). Even Black Panther, while being all serious and out for revenge only really went for Bucky...

    And in the end it was Cap who - knowing that Spidey's quite young - dumped that container on him. So... yeah...

    To me it looks hypocritical to look at Tony bringing in a minor and call this child endangerment, irredeemable, or I don't know 'Tony screwing up again', while it at best is maybe a bit irresponsible, especially considering Spider-mans skill set and orders, while not even looking at Cap throwing and igniting a fuel truck into a friends face and only raisng an eyebrow in astonishment, when the whole thing blows up. It was quite lucky that T'Challa and Widow jumped out in time... So how is Tony being the bad guy and Cap the good here. Either we accept that both didn't really expect a serious fight and it went way over board... or we have to hold them equally responsible for their screw ups...
     
  20. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Pretty much. To the extent Tony deserves the blame for the fight, he deserves it not because he brought Peter to it. He deserves it because the fight shouldn't have happened in the first place, because he shouldn't have submitted to Ross' authority in the first place. That doesn't change if he happens to not recruit a minor.
     
  21. Ceies Registered

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    So... it would have been better, had Ross sent his UN-Forces to kill Cap and Bucky as he originally planned? Making this a quarrel within the Avengers was definitally the better outcome than having a bunch of superheroes fight UN-Forces on an airport where they have no business to be, to steal a plane, to help their wanted fugitive friend escape custody. I'm imagining this statement to the public...

    Tony wasn't given much a choice here. Had Cap sent Bucky back to custody, asked Tony for help and gone to Siberia with the Avengers instead of only Bucky, that would have been preferable. It takes two for a fight, so why's it all on Tony, when Tony's the one who was literally given the choice: Bring them in alive, or we'll bring him in dead (and since we can't really defeat him, probably send hundred soldiers to their doom).

    Cap had just as many chances (if not more, since he wasn't blackmailed) than Tony to not fight him, yet somehow it's all Tony's fault that they ended up fighting.
     
  22. dax Registered

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    Cap didn't force Tony to fight him at all. He knew that Tony wouldn't listen to him even when he told him that Zemo was behind the UN bombing and is about to awaken multiple Winter Soldiers in Siberia because typical Tony thinks he knows better than Cap. Cap also knew that Team Iron Man won't allow him or his team to leave so they could stop Zemo from releasing the Winter Soldiers so yes, it's Tony's fault that the Avengers are now fighting each other because he signed the Accords out of guilt and convinced a few others to do the same.
     
  23. Ceies Registered

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    @dax yet Tony proves you wrong, cause apperently, since he actually managed to find evidence to clear Bucky and arrived in Siberia to help only shortly after Cap and Bucky arrived there. Despite first having to ask Falcon for the way. (Kinda unbelievable, but that's what happened, isn't it?)
    And Cap actually didn't know that. Cap's initial reaction was: Let's call Tony and tell him!
    But Falcon didn't want that. So Cap let Falcon talk himself out of calling Tony. But they KNEW that they'd meet Tony eventually, whether they called him or not. That's why they got the team, because they knew, Tony was going to stand in their way. But instead of even trying to prevent that, or trying to talk to Tony, he just ran straight into him.

    And I really don't see, why Rhodes signing (who believed in the accords even after he got hurt) or Widow signing, who does her own thing most of the time, or T'Challa's father dying speaking in favor of the accords, is suddenly all Tony's fault.
    Tony had a whole bunch of reasons to sign them, and he even told them to Cap, yet Fan's always narrow it down to 'he feels guilty.' Well at least he feels guilty... Can't say the same for Cap after Lagos. Or any time, really... Because yeah, Ultron might have been mostly Tony's screw up. But Lagos was on the whole Team, Hulk and Iron Man fighting in Avengers 2 was on Scarlet Witch and the whole Team...
    And wrecking that Police Corp to save Bucky was on Cap... Principle of minimum force?
    But, yeah... Tony was a bit guilty, that's part of why he signed, but not all of it.
    there's also:
    - he believes in the Accords. He thinks they are the right thing.
    - government delegates of 100+ nations, the general public, the media and families of past victims demanded accountability and oversight and some sort of consequences
    - they weren't really given a choice. Yeah, Tony actually said that if they didn't sign something worse would come
    - they could apparently be amended later on.
    Tony basically wanted to meet the UN halfway... Cap didn't want to compromise... which would have been okay, had he not been under time pressure.

    But Widow and Rhodes signed for their own reasons. And T'Challas father was actually among the most outspoken supporters of the accords. So blaming Tony for the accords is just childish. And blaming a political discrapency for losing friendships even more so. Politics are to each their own. For Cap to stop trusting Tony and thinking he'd sell them out, just because they disagreed on a political debate (albeit an important debate to their personal lives) is childish.
    Especially when the debate is so new and he hardly had time to even think about it, let alone read the papers. As much as Tony acted out of guilt, Cap acted because his dead love told him to plant himself like a tree once.
    And then surprise... Tony gets one single hint, that Cap might actually be right with Bucky being innocent and he btrays his political believes to come help a friend. Who would have guessed that would happen? Pretty much everyone who knows Tony, because Tony tends to be a loyal friend. And he also tends to place his own selfish desires (and protecting a friend is a selfish desire - hello Cap) above the law.

    The whole incident came at a very bad timing. Cap didn't want to sign, because he had a bunch of issues with them, which was okay... But what should he have done? Bide his time and wait for those issues to be resolved. With Tony, Widow, Vision and Rhodey there were enough people on the 'UN-governed Avengers team' To just look for a while how it worked and make his decision later on. Noone would have been able to force him to sign, and as long as he didn't break the Accords. Then Bucky happened and Cap instead of doing what he should have done: either calling Tony or Vision to help out (apparently Rhodey got clearance to interfere later on), or if he had to do it himself, make Bucky surrender to the officials himself, instead of helping him escape, beating down the police and wrecking a tunnel.
    Then he got arrested, and suddenly he had given the officials everything to put him under preassure. That's not on Tony, that's entirely on him.
    Just like later, when he refuses to sign again and instead escapes custody he's now a wanted fugitive himself.... So Kudos to him, but that's not on Tony either. And again there was a way to deescalate the situation: Bringing Bucky back into custody. Or at least call Tony to deal with the Winter Soldiers and not do anything for a while. And way to escalate it: Taking matters into his own hands. And again, the savest hands are our own, so instead of letting the thing be solved by a team of UN-approved Avengers that would have been entirely capable of dealing with the problem - he decides he wants to do it himself.
    Meanwhile Tony has to literally beg Ross not to send a killing commando after Bucky. But Tony's untrustworthy, so nobody calls him to tell him what's really going on.
    And in the end, Bucky and Cap alone... (yeah, as if they'd have a chance against five winter soldiers who Bucky said were even stronger than him) get away... And look who appears to help a little later...

    What happens after that, is a different matter, because at that point it gets personal and stops being political.

    The thing is... Tony most of the film was only reacting to things going on around him. It's a Captain America film, because not only does the plot continue from Winter Soldier, but most of all, Cap is the driving force, next to the bad guy, Zemo. The films action gets mostly driven by Cap and Zemo. The only time Tony's actions gets actually relevant to the plot, is when he decides to help his friend out in Siberia.

    Before that, yeah, he was in favor of the accords. But the accords were mostly driven by politicians like T'Challas father, or Ross. They'd have happened anyway. the UN-Bombing would have happened, Cap would have gone to Bucharest. Bucky, Cap, Falcon, Black Panther and the Police would have destroyed the city a little more and fought a little longer, because maybe no Rhodey to come in and stop them. But in the end Cap and Falcon would still have surrendered to the officials, Bucky too... Because they are not actually bad guys, are they. Zemo would have come in and activate the Winter Soldier programming, Cap and Falcon would escape custody, to find out about the Sibrian Winter soldiers. At this point had Tony not been with the Accords they would have probably called him for help who knows, so maybe the plot would have changed there. But let's assume they wouldn't (because they didn't call him in Captain America Winter Soldier either, despite the main problem literally being a computerprogram), and then at the airport, instead of meating a bunch of old friends who start with a little talking and bickering and don't really want to hurt each other, they would have found UN-forces with killing orders. That would be the only difference to the plot, had Tony not been pro-Accords...

    It's a Captain America film. He's the driving force. He's the one who decides to get involved with Bucky - because he is his friend. He's the one who decides not to bring Bucky back into custody, after he escapes. He's the one who decides not to confide in Tony, when he should have. He's the one to go to Siberia. Tony most of the film runs behind him and tries to stop Ross from actually shooting Cap, or putting him in a prison.
     
    #48 Ceies, Apr 1, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
  24. Capsfan Registered

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    Tony didn't listen because Bucky killed many innocent people in Berlin which Tony saw himself and had no clue whatsoever about triggers. And after that Cap escaped with him without any word to Tony or Natasha. Why the heck Tony is supposed to believe Cap after all this? After Bucky shooting him in the face? So, while I agree that Tony was responsible, I fail to see how it was only his fault alone.
     
  25. Capsfan Registered

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    Completely agree. While I'm a huge fan of Cap, I really don't like when people try to say it was all Tony's fault. I don't need Cap to be this flawless ideal to love him. In fact, I love him the most in CW, where he makes mistakes and acts a little selfish as every over human being. It's a very interesting side of him and it helps dimensionalising the character.
     

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