If Dark Phoenix did good both critically and financially instead of bombing, what would have happen?

[BobJM]

I'm not sure Apocalypse was ever going to beat DOFP's numbers without Jackman and the original cast.

I tend to agree with this. I think the issue with the X-Franchise after DOFP is that it just lost its steam. I don't know if the full original cast was necessary to continue the B.O. returns, but certainly Jackman. I remember when it was rumored he was going to be paling around with Mystique and recruited as a Horsemen in Apocalypse.

I just pitched this alternate take on X-Men: Apocalypse over on the What-If thread. I think the train was already too far off the track with Dark Phoenix, and what the franchise really needed to survive--critically and financially--was a better follow-up to X-Men: Days of Future Past that set up the new team with Wolverine as the drill-sergeant figure (similar to X-Men: Evolution).

X-MEN: APOCALYPSE
directed by Jordan Vogt-Roberts

Summer 2016

Professor Charles Xavier: James McAvoy

En Sabah Nur / Apocalypse: Idris Elba
Magneto: Michael Fassbender
Mystique: Jennifer Lawrence
Dr. Hank McCoy / Beast: Nicholas Hoult
Logan / Wolverine: Hugh Jackman

NEW CLASS
Scott / Cyclops: Timothee Chalamet
Jean Grey: Saoirse Ronan
Kurt / Nightcrawler: Kodi Smit-McPhee
Warren / Angel: Austin Butler
Alison / Dazzler: Odeya Rush

SUPPORTING
Ororo / Storm: Letitia Wright
Peter / Quicksilver: Evan Peters
Dr. Moira MacTaggart: Rose Byrne

ADDITIONAL
Alex Summers: Lucas Till
Colonel William Stryker: Josh Helman
Senator Robert Kelly: Brian Geraghty


FULL CAST PHOTO GALLERY

Professor Xavier: James McAvoy

APOCALYPSE & THE FOUR HORSEMEN
En Sabah Nur / Apocalypse: Idris Elba

Magneto: Michael Fassbender

Mystique: Jennifer Lawrence

Dr. Hank McCoy / Beast: Nicholas Hoult

Logan / Wolverine: Hugh Jackman

NEW CLASS
Scott / Cyclops: Timothee Chalamet

Jean Grey: Saoirse Ronan

Kurt / Nightcrawler: Kodi Smit-McPhee

Warren / Angel: Austin Butler

Alison / Dazzler: Odeya Rush

SUPPORTING
Ororo / Storm: Letitia Wright

Peter / Quicksilver: Evan Peters

Dr. Moira MacTaggart: Rose Byrne

ADDITIONAL
Alex Summers: Lucas Till

Colonel William Stryker: Josh Helman

Senator Robert Kelly: Brian Geraghty

PLOT TREATMENT CHANGES / NOTES

X-Men: Apocalypse, set in 1983, is intended to kickstart a new set of films centered around the new class of X-Men: CYCLOPS, JEAN GREY, STORM, ANGEL, NIGHTCRAWLER, and DAZZLER in the 1980’s.

Warren Worthington is already a student at the X-Mansion when Scott Summers arrives, along with Jean Grey and Alison Blaire / Dazzler (replacing Jubilee).

• Jean‘s powers make the other students fearful of her. Warren is the popular boy on campus (and rival for Scott), and Allison is pure 80s Dazzler from the comics.
• Instead of the classroom introduction we have on film, we are introduced to high schooler Scott Summers on the cusp of pitching a no-hitter when his mutant abilities first start to manifest. He runs off the mound and into the locker rooms as the crowd boos. His optic blasts unleash, punching a hole through the wall and nearly through his teammates on the field. He’s a natural-born leader.

Senator Kelly is a junior senator from New York always on the cable news circuit—it’s an appearance of his on CNN early in the film that provides the exposition for the audience & reminder of the events of Magneto’s attack against the President in 1974.

Logan is with Mystique in East Berlin when she rescues Kurt (there is an extended action sequence with released mutants attacking the guards with Logan).

• In their dialogue, we learn that Mystique and Logan have worked together on-and-off since she rescued him from Stryker in X-Men: Days of Future Past.

More time is spent getting to know the new class of mutants—with less focus on Xavier, Magneto, Mystique, & Beast.

• Both Xavier and Magneto are gray / silver (not overdone with aged-makeup, but there’s an effort made to show that it’s been 20 years since X-Men: First Class).
• Hank is always in blue beast form—no mention of serums or pills.
• Mystique hides her blue form from the public to avoid attention. She doesn’t see herself as a hero—not when there are so many mutants around the world that still need help.

The opening sequence is altered from the filmed version:

In ancient Egypt, En Sabah Nur is a ruthless warlord razing villages in search of mutants with his Four Horsemen (comic accurate costumes, albeit with an ancient Egyptian-skew). He has the ability to transfer his consciousness into bodies & collect mutant abilities, extending his life each time.

• After his latest raze, we watch him transfer his mind into the body of a mutant with cellular regeneration powers (body of Idris Elba).
• It’s a ritualistic ceremony but the process is solely-powered by Apocalypse and takes his full concentration which leaves him momentarily powerless—protected only by his Horsemen.
• During the transference, the Horseman betray En Sabah Nur—fearing his power— and entomb him underneath his pyramid.

Apocalypse is first awakened during an archaeological dig. There is Egyptian military onsite with CIA agent Moira MacTaggart due to concern over a cult called the Clan Akkaba. Apocalypse decimates the site with only Moira narrowly escaping.

• Since X-Men: First Class, MacTaggart has become one of the intelligence communities’ foremost minds on mutant policy. The mind-wipe was a temporary setback in her career but only served to intensify her research and field missions.

Alex Summers brings his brother Scott to Xavier Mansion where Scott meets Jean for the first time, and first butts heads with Warren.

Apocalypse later rescues runaway thief Storm as he wanders the streets of Cairo but she turns down his offer to join him, seeing herself as a loner.

He uses the television to “learn” and instead seeks Magneto who is not hiding in Poland but instead is already forming Genosha off the coast of Madagascar with his son, Peter aka Quicksilver.

Magneto & Quicksilver have already come to terms with their father-son relationship in the 9 years since X-Men: Days of Future Past. Peter is trying to help rehabilitate his father, guiding him towards a life of peace & his newfound family at the commune of Genosha.

Apocalypse seduces Magneto to his cause by taking him to Auschwitz and unlocking his full powers to destroy the camp. Afterwards, Magneto is mentally exhausted & Apocalypse is able to take control of his mind.

Logan meets a young Jean & Scott at the mansion when he arrives with Mystique and Kurt.

The new class of X-Men ditch the mansion to go to the mall in this film version and we see their characters interact & the bonds form in an 80s music-filled montage.

Xavier reaches out to Magneto via Cerebro after seeing news coverage of Auschwitz’s unnatural destruction. Apocalypse connects to his mind to detonate the world’s nuclear arsenal before transporting to the mansion to capture Xavier and take control of Mystique, Logan, and Beast as his remaining horsemen.

David Bowie’s “Let’s Dance” is the song for Quicksilver’s rescue sequence (otherwise relatively unchanged, but Apocalypse is fully responsible for Alex’s death and the mansion’s destruction).

• Quicksilver is there to warn the X-Men about Apocalypse, but is too late again.

Apocalypse bonds adamantium to Logan’s skeleton (the ending of X-Men: Days of Future Past is upheld; Logan never undergoes the Weapon X procedure). Logan wears a suit similar to his classic comics costume as a Horseman.

Apocalypse’s Horsemen are fully under his control with no will of their own: Wolverine, Magneto, Mystique, & Beast

• Each Horseman’s powers are enhanced tenfold.
• The new class of X-Men, led by Scott Summers, will have to save the day.

Apocalypse‘s plan is relatively unchanged—he targets Professor Xavier for his next transference (but with less global destruction). He instructs Magneto to raise his buried pyramid from the sands, and has the Four Horsemen protect the fortress during the transference.

As the city of Cairo begins to evacuate when the transference begins, Storm decides to stop running and join the fight.

Col. Stryker loans a jet and flight suits for MacTaggart and the young X-Men to get to Egypt, but his motives aren’t completely altruistic—shortly after they depart, he deploys a fleet of SENTINELS to kill all the mutants.

In the final battle, Apocalypse kills Mystique—mutantkind’s ‘false hero,’ as he calls her—though she manages to distract the villain long enough for the heroes to unite against him. She dies in Xavier’s arms and he tearfully echoes her words back to you...“mutant & proud.”

Jean does “let go” and unleash her power on Apocalypse at the end, bringing her arc full-circle (although there is no Phoenix reveal).

At the end...

Magneto goes back to Genosha with Quicksilver, bidding farewell to Xavier (now bald due to Apocalypse’s attempt at transference). Moira MacTaggart’s memories are now fully restored.

The X-Men, in comic-accurate costumes, ready themselves for a Danger Room simulation against Sentinels, with Beast at the controls and drill sergeant Wolverine suited up and ready to begin.

Mid-credits...

Military personnel are scouring the finale battle location site, cleaning up & assessing the damage. Amongst them is the Weapon X team, with William Stryker present too. They collect a blood sample belonging to Wolverine in briefcase labeled WEAPON X (teasing a Laura / Weapon X-23 future appearance in these 80s films).

THE X-MEN WILL RETURN.

 

[psylockolussus]

I'm not sure Apocalypse was ever going to beat DOFP's numbers without Jackman and the original cast.

That was never going to happen especially after their comeback appearance. The OT cast returning was literally the big reason for the film's buzz. Not McAvoy. Not Fassbender. Which made it more baffling that they moved forward with the cast that were literally set in the cast. And people wanted James Marsden, Famke and Halle after those cameos, not younger versions of the characters they played.

Flashforward to 2019, Dark Phoenix couldn't even outgross Apocalypse's opening weekend in America.

 

[Fosterson]

You could, although at the time the X-Men series was more established than the MCU.

I seriously disagree. Avengers made the MCU the No.1 superhero movie franchise in Hollywood (and don't forget IM3 made $1.3 billion too!) so by the time TWS rolled around I would argue that there was far more hype and attention surrounding it than there was surrounding the X-Verse.

Given that Bryan Singer was returning with a good number of the original cast, I was expecting DOFP to be the highest grossing superhero film of 2014. I wasn't certain how well The Winter Soldier would do because the first Captain America movie had done well but nowhere near Avengers numbers and it was also following the mediocre Thor: The Dark World.

Except Borigins got significantly worse reactions from both critics and fans than TDW did (37% on RT vs 66%) and it also made far less money. People really love to exaggerate how much of a "failure" TDW was when the fact is that it made $644 million WW and was by any measure a successful movie.

It was certainly not a great film, but it didn't deal nearly fatal damage to the franchise in the way that The Last Stand and in particular Borigins did to the XCU. DoFP was only the third X-Men movie since that calamity and the poor taste left behind had certainly not been forgotten.. By contrast, TWS was coming off the back of a first Cap movie - which, while it didn't light up the box office, was nevertheless well-received - as well as the massive critical and financial success of Avengers and the undeniable success of IM3 and to a large extent TDW.

There's no comparison there.

 

[Fosterson]

I'm not sure Apocalypse was ever going to beat DOFP's numbers without Jackman and the original cast.

Well, even the borderline unwatchable version we got managed to make $543 million WW. So I think its reasonable to believe that a really good Apocalypse with glowing reviews and word of mouth would have surpassed DoFP.

And its not like the original cast were the only draw with DoFP either. People really liked Fassbender and McAvoy as Erik and Charles, and no matter how much we might hate her in the role, JLaw was certainly a big draw too.

 

[Hand Banana]

@BobJM

I think the best course of action would be to not have Apocalypse be the villain but Shadow King. Reduce Mystique to a supporting role and have Magneto as a cameo.

The film should have centered on Xavier forming the X-Men like he promised Wolverine in Days of Future Past. Establish Nightcrawler as Mystique’s son to have death be more impactful in Phoenix, set-up Jean’s backstory so the reveal that her father is alive in Phoenix would be an effective twist.

 

[Fosterson]

Although I agree with your first paragraph, from your second paragraph it sounds like you're faulting the MCU for doing exceptionally well out of the gate and struggling (?) to double on those already highs, but at the same time you're heaping praise and rewarding Fox for doubling on their new film from sucking previously (see: First Class suckage).

I'm not criticising the MCU for anything. I'm just pointing out that DoFP achieved a remarkable feat by more than doubling the revenue of its predessor.

And I couldn't disagree more with you about First Class sucking.

 

[Hand Banana]

Which made it more baffling that they moved forward with the cast that were literally set in the cast.

It is because they wanted to do Dark Phoenix with Emma Frost and the Hellfire Club. Therefore it had to be set in the past.

 

[BobJM]

@BobJM

I think the best course of action would be to not have Apocalypse be the villain but Shadow King. Reduce Mystique to a supporting role and have Magneto as a cameo.

The film should have centered on Xavier forming the X-Men like he promise Wolverine in Days of Future Past. Establish Nightcrawler as Mystique’s son to have death be more impactful in Phoenix, set-up Jean’s backstory so the reveal that her father is alive in Phoenix would be an effective twist.

That’s not a bad idea, although I still think redoing Dark Phoenix storyline was a mistake. The last film could have been another classic 80s romp—maybe Sinister and the Morlocks with Channing Tatum finally debuting as Gambit.

 

[Hand Banana]

That’s not a bad idea, although I still think redoing Dark Phoenix storyline was a mistake. The last film could have been another classic 80s romp—maybe Sinister and the Morlocks with Channing Tatum finally debuting as Gambit.

Dark Phoenix isn’t a single story arc though, it was a saga. Like the Rocky Saga, Skywalker Saga, Fast Saga, and Infinity Saga, etc. The Last Stand rushed into the final arc of the Dark Phoenix Saga and made Jean a villain without having her go through a corruption arc.

The Dark Phoenix movie was based on X-Men Origins: Jean Grey and the Black Queen arc of the saga, which have never actually been adapted. Besides, Fox did Deadpool’s origin story twice.

 

[psylockolussus]

It is because they wanted to do Dark Phoenix with Emma Frost and the Hellfire Club. Therefore it had to be set in the past.

Eh. So Kinberg could ruin Dark PhoeniX once again. There was no point going back to the past especially when they just resurrected the present day X-Men. Story wise, the narrative should just continued in the present. And there are plenty of X-Men storylines to adapt.

 

[Hand Banana]

Eh. So Kinberg could ruin Dark PhoeniX once again. There was no point going back to the past especially when they just resurrected the present day X-Men. Story wise, the narrative should just continued in the present. And there are plenty of X-Men storylines to adapt.

Again? Brett Ratner was director was director of X3 and he rewrote the script Matthew Vaughn, Zak Penn, and Simon Kinberg. Apparently, because Fox didn’t think a female superhero movie was sellable after Elektra tanked.

 

[psylockolussus]

Again? Brett Ratner was director was director of X3 and he rewrote the script Matthew Vaughn, Zak Penn, and Simon Kinberg. Apparently, because Fox didn’t think a female superhero movie was sellable after Elektra tanked.

Again? You just said Kinberg was involved in X3's script? Again? He worked with the Dark PhoeniX's film adaptation twice.

 

[Drizzle]

I seriously disagree. Avengers made the MCU the No.1 superhero movie franchise in Hollywood (and don't forget IM3 made $1.3 billion too!) so by the time TWS rolled around I would argue that there was far more hype and attention surrounding it than there was surrounding the X-Verse.

By established I meant "been around longer". The franchise was 14 years old at the time compared to the 6-year-old MCU. I don't really remember how much hype each film had at the time to compare, but I do remember DOFP had a much larger presence at Comic Con 2013. Avengers aside, the MCU projects that didn't involve Iron Man were just starting to pick up steam at the time.

Except Borigins got significantly worse reactions from both critics and fans than TDW did (37% on RT vs 66%) and it also made far less money. People really love to exaggerate how much of a "failure" TDW was when the fact is that it made $644 million WW and was by any measure a successful movie.

It was certainly not a great film, but it didn't deal nearly fatal damage to the franchise in the way that The Last Stand and in particular Borigins did to the XCU. DoFP was only the third X-Men movie since that calamity and the poor taste left behind had certainly not been forgotten.. By contrast, TWS was coming off the back of a first Cap movie - which, while it didn't light up the box office, was nevertheless well-received - as well as the massive critical and financial success of Avengers and the undeniable success of IM3 and to a large extent TDW.

There's no comparison there.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Hand Banana]

Again? You just said Kinberg was involved in X3's script? Again? He worked with the Dark PhoeniX's film adaptation twice.

Yes, but the decision to make the Phoenix into a subplot was Fox’s choice instead of his. Dark Phoenix was based on the original plans for X3, except the Hellfire Club were the villains instead of aliens.

The situation with X3 was similar to how Justice League was reworked by Warner Brothers after BvS’s reception.

 

[psylockolussus]

Yes, but the decision to make the Phoenix into a subplot was Fox’s choice instead of his. Dark Phoenix was based on the original plans for X3, except the Hellfire Club were the villains instead of aliens.

The situation with X3 was similar to how Justice League was reworked by Warner Brothers after BvS’s reception.

You are making eXcuses to a writer with a bad track record. Kinberg also co wrote Fant4stic and Apocalypse. Dark PhoeniX is technically his 4th strike as a writer of a marvel movie.

Just because foX played a part in ruining X3, it doesn't mean it eXcludes Kinberg for his work on the script of X3.

 

[Hand Banana]

You are making eXcuses to a writer with a bad track record. Kinberg also co wrote Fant4stic and Apocalypse. Dark PhoeniX is technically his 4th strike as a writer of a marvel movie.

Just because foX played a part in ruining X3, it doesn't mean it eXcludes Kinberg for his work on the script of X3.

You claimed he was the one that chose to make Phoenix into a subplot and I simply pointed out that was incorrect. That isn’t the same as making excuses.

 

[henzINNIT]

You claimed he was the one that chose to make Phoenix into a subplot and I simply pointed out that was incorrect. That isn’t the same as making excuses.

You didn't actually. You first objected to Simon Kinberg ruining the Phoenix story twice. Which he did. I think a good writer should be able to overcome the studio notes once in a while. Kinberg may not have decided to make Jean the B-plot of TLS, but he's still a big part of why her story and the rest of that film sucks.

Well, even the borderline unwatchable version we got managed to make $543 million WW. So I think its reasonable to believe that a really good Apocalypse with glowing reviews and word of mouth would have surpassed DoFP.

And its not like the original cast were the only draw with DoFP either. People really liked Fassbender and McAvoy as Erik and Charles, and no matter how much we might hate her in the role, JLaw was certainly a big draw too.

First Class made barely any impression. It was a good film that practically no-one went to see. DOFP saw the franchise's biggest numbers because it was a unique opportunity to make an event film out of their shredded continuity and combine the casts. It wasn't solely on the shoulders of the original cast, but it was a huge part, the crux of that film's marketing and the speculation around it. Apocalypse was struggling to build hype long before we knew it sucked. Fox even spoiled their Wolverine cameo in a later trailer. It being good wouldn't have even made much difference as these films had no legs anyway.

People liked McAvoy and Fassbender. Jennifer Lawrence was already hated among nerds by Apocalypse. None of these people are proven draws in this franchise or elsewhere.

 

[Fosterson]

By established I meant "been around longer". The franchise was 14 years old at the time compared to the 6-year-old MCU. I don't really remember how much hype each film had at the time to compare, but I do remember DOFP had a much larger presence at Comic Con 2013. Avengers aside, the MCU projects that didn't involve Iron Man were just starting to pick up steam at the time.

The MCU had a pretty massive presence at Comic-Con 2013. TWS had a large panel dedicated to it (with all the main cast):



And who could forget Tom Hiddleston's Loki performance that set the internet on fire?

 

[Fosterson]

First Class made barely any impression. It was a good film that practically no-one went to see.

What I'm arguing is that the positive reception to Fassbender and McAvoy from both FC and DoFP created anticipation for Apocalypse.

Apocalypse was struggling to build hype long before we knew it sucked. Fox even spoiled their Wolverine cameo in a later trailer. It being good wouldn't have even made much difference as these films had no legs anyway.

I disagree that there wasn't much hype for Apocalypse. If anything, I would say that the critical and financial success of DoFP made it the most hyped X-Men movie yet. It seemed like, with Singer in charge of the ship, Fox had finally steered the franchise in the right direction and that we weren't going to get another train wreck. To reinforce my point, the teaser for Apocalypse got 55 million views on YouTube, whereas the DoFP teaser got 36 million. And Black Panther (which lets not forget, grossed $1.6 billion) only got 43 million for its first teaser.

Obviously, these numbers aren't everything, but they show that there was still a lot of hype surrounding Apocalypse

People liked McAvoy and Fassbender. Jennifer Lawrence was already hated among nerds by Apocalypse. None of these people are proven draws in this franchise or elsewhere.

Being hated by nerds is irrelevant since we comprise only a small percentage of the total audience. A lot of nerds hate Brie Larson too. It didn't stop Captain Marvel from grossing $1 billion.

Lawrence is a marquee name and most audience members didn't have negative feelings towards her like most fans.

 

[Hand Banana]

You didn't actually. You first objected to Simon Kinberg ruining the Phoenix story twice. Which he did. I think a good writer should be able to overcome the studio notes once in a while. Kinberg may not have decided to make Jean the B-plot of TLS, but he's still a big part of why her story and the rest of that film sucks.

Based on interviews with Matthew Vaughn and some of the cast, it was apparently Brett Ratner that rewrote the Phoenix into a subplot (along with other things), instead of Kinberg.

SuperHeroHype: When you were in New York six years ago for "Layer Cake," you were already well into development on the third "X-Men" movie and you had a lot of great ideas that sounded cool, then you left that. And now you're back, so what was the biggest factor in convincing you to do another movie? Was it the story or Bryan Singer's involvement?

Matthew Vaughn: Unfinished business, that's what inspired me. I was totally excited about doing "X3" and basically co-wrote the script with (Simon) Kinberg and Zak Penn. We did that in six days together, and then storyboarded the whole movie, prevised all the big sequences, and then like an idiot, thought that I didn't have enough time to make the film I wanted, so I had to leave. I sort of regretted that ever since, and when Fox rang me up and said, "Do you want a chance to reboot X-Men and put your stamp all over it?" When they told me that, I thought they were joking at first, and then they told me it would happen in the '60s against the Cuban missile crisis as the backdrop, I thought, "God, this sounds cool. Why not? Let's do it."

https://www.superherohype.com/featu...ith-x-men-first-class-director-matthew-vaughn

But Vaughn’s low regard for Ratner’s effort reared its head again more recently press rounds for ‘First Class,’ when he continued to kick ‘The Last Stand’ saying, “I storyboarded the whole bloody film, did the script. My ‘X3’ would have been 40 minutes longer. They didn’t let the emotions and the drama play in that film. It became wall-to-wall noise and drama. I would have let it breathe and added far more dramatic elements to it.”

Brett Ratner Quietly Fights Back On Twitter After Matthew Vaughn Trashes ‘X-Men: The Last Stand’

"I loved the role, but hopefully you can put it f***ing right here, mate. I basically got mugged off. Matthew Vaughn signed me up, and it was a great role and a great script, and Juggernaut was a great character. I signed up for three of them, and that will show you how serious I was about it. Brett Ratner basically dissolved the character. I was in my f***ing trailer half the time. It's one of the most disappointing jobs I've been on as far as, you know, 'What am I doing here?'"

Vinnie Jones FINALLY Sets The Record Straight On X-MEN: THE LAST STAND Role: "I Got Mugged Off" - EXCLUSIVE

There was also this podcast from 2007 where Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg say that Phoenix just standing around wasn’t in their script.

 

[henzINNIT]

What I'm arguing is that the positive reception to Fassbender and McAvoy from both FC and DoFP created anticipation for Apocalypse.

It's hard to speculate on what the people thought with much conviction. I think interest in them was dwarfed by the big reunion of the OG cast. Magneto was also wearing thin by then.

I disagree that there wasn't much hype for Apocalypse. If anything, I would say that the critical and financial success of DoFP made it the most hyped X-Men movie yet. It seemed like, with Singer in charge of the ship, Fox had finally steered the franchise in the right direction and that we weren't going to get another train wreck. To reinforce my point, the teaser for Apocalypse got 55 million views on YouTube, whereas the DoFP teaser got 36 million. And Black Panther (which lets not forget, grossed $1.6 billion) only got 43 million for its first teaser.

Obviously, these numbers aren't everything, but they show that there was still a lot of hype surrounding Apocalypse

Perhaps my memory is coloured by personal experience. It didn't seem to make much noise to me. Not on the level of DOFP. I guess it must have been pretty optimistic before we started seeing warning signs.

Being hated by nerds is irrelevant since we comprise only a small percentage of the total audience. A lot of nerds hate Brie Larson too. It didn't stop Captain Marvel from grossing $1 billion.

Lawrence is a marquee name and most audience members didn't have negative feelings towards her like most fans.

I only mention the hate because it's pretty much the only notable reaction there has been to Lawrence in the role. I don't think she was ever popular as Mystique. She's a name but not a proven box office draw.

Based on interviews with Matthew Vaughn and some of the cast, it was apparently Brett Ratner that rewrote the Phoenix into a subplot (along with other things), instead of Kinberg.



https://www.superherohype.com/featu...ith-x-men-first-class-director-matthew-vaughn



Brett Ratner Quietly Fights Back On Twitter After Matthew Vaughn Trashes ‘X-Men: The Last Stand’



Vinnie Jones FINALLY Sets The Record Straight On X-MEN: THE LAST STAND Role: "I Got Mugged Off" - EXCLUSIVE

There was also this podcast from 2007 where Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg say that Phoenix just standing around wasn’t in their script.

So who is responsible for the screenplay if not the writers? Is it Vaughn who may have helped write it but says his version would have been 40 minutes longer and completely different? Or Ratner who was an admitted hired gun even at the time? Neither are credited as writers. Kinberg was the through-line, the first writer hired. It's apparent how much of him is in that script by how similarly terrible Dark Phoenix was 13 years later. No-one is saying X3 is all Kinberg, but he certainly deserves his share.

 

[EnDz0n3]

It is because they wanted to do Dark Phoenix with Emma Frost and the Hellfire Club. Therefore it had to be set in the past.

Please. You act like if Dark Phoenix was set in the future, this studio, this franchise, Kinberg, Singer, the Powers-That-Be et al wouldn't have found ways to re-re-reintroduce retconned characters that would otherwise not make sense.

Moira, Xavier's sister Raven, cameo Sebastian Shaw, cameo Hank McCoy, cameo lil Scott Summers, cameo lil Ororo Munroe, cameo Mirage, Trask, Sabretooth, Toad, Caliban, Yukio, Deadpool, Colossus, Sunspot, Quicksilver, Psylocke, Angel, Jubilee, friggin Emma "SilverFox" etc would all like a word.

I'm not criticising the MCU for anything. I'm just pointing out that DoFP achieved a remarkable feat by more than doubling the revenue of its predessor.

I love DOFP as much as the next guy and its $700Mil at the worldwide box office is nothing to sneeze at, but that's akin to saying doubling $1 to $2 is a remarkable feat. First Class' $146Mil box office was quite embarrassing in 2011 for an X-men movie. Speaking of which...

And I couldn't disagree more with you about First Class sucking.

LMAO I'm simply echoing your "First Class (which was positively received, but wasn't exactly a massive success financially)." Simply put: First class "sucked" at the box office.

Or are you really going to say that First Class' inability to match a X-men's box office 11 years later was a good thing?

 

[Fosterson]

It's hard to speculate on what the people thought with much conviction. I think interest in them was dwarfed by the big reunion of the OG cast. Magneto was also wearing thin by then.

IIRC, Fassbender's performance in DoFP was one of the most highly praised aspects of it.

Perhaps my memory is coloured by personal experience. It didn't seem to make much noise to me.

That may have been due to the fact that Apocalypse had the unfortunate fate of being released in the same year as Batman v Superman and Civil War, two of the most highly anticipated CBMs ever. With those two films hogging the lime light, its understandable that Apocalypse might have ended up seeming a little over-looked.

I only mention the hate because it's pretty much the only notable reaction there has been to Lawrence in the role. I don't think she was ever popular as Mystique. She's a name but not a proven box office draw.

JLaw might not have been super popular as Mystique, but she is definitely a proven box office draw. Its not for nothing that she was Hollywood's highest paid actress around that time.

 

[Fosterson]

I love DOFP as much as the next guy and its $700Mil at the worldwide box office is nothing to sneeze at, but that's akin to saying doubling $1 to $2 is a remarkable feat. First Class' $146Mil box office was quite embarrassing in 2011 for an X-men movie. Speaking of which...

LMAO I'm simply echoing your "First Class (which was positively received, but wasn't exactly a massive success financially)." Simply put: First class "sucked" at the box office.

Or are you really going to say that First Class' inability to match a X-men's box office 11 years later was a good thing?

I thought you were referring to the film's quality. And no, I'm not saying that First Class's performance was incredible or anything. But it was respectable given that it was coming off the back of two awful prior films and was also featuring a brand new (and Wolverine-less) cast.

 

[henzINNIT]

IIRC, Fassbender's performance in DoFP was one of the most highly praised aspects of it.

DOFP? Not really. He was the breakout of First Class for sure. Evan Peters stole the show and most attention for DOFP. McAvoy also got most of the meat in the film and the best dramatic moments. Never heard a bad word about Fassbender, but DOFP is where I really started hearing complaints about Magneto and his constant flip-flopping.

That may have been due to the fact that Apocalypse had the unfortunate fate of being released in the same year as Batman v Superman and Civil War, two of the most highly anticipated CBMs ever. With those two films hogging the lime light, its understandable that Apocalypse might have ended up seeming a little over-looked.

I'd argue it was over-looked. A prequel that introduces new teenage versions of characters was not a strong pitch against all the crossovers and events.

JLaw might not have been super popular as Mystique, but she is definitely a proven box office draw. Its not for nothing that she was Hollywood's highest paid actress around that time.

Proven by what metric? She had a good run but I don't think she was a proven draw at any point. Lawrence's box office success is largely tied to popular ip, Hunger Games and X-Men. Otherwise she has a career of hits and duds that seems pretty standard to me. It's not a slight against Lawrence. She's talented, put in good performances, won awards, and earned her asking price. She was certainly considered a draw at a time.