If DC would reboot it's universe from scratch again, how would you do of each the bi

[Lane & Kent]

Wasn't meant to sound angry at you, more angry at the ****s who seem intent on making everything about Superman as different as possible to "revitalize" him, when anyone can see that the problem is that they don't get decent writers. Stick Grant Morrison on his books forever, and be done with it.

Agreed

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Damn, dude. You're taking these mother****ers down left and right, today.

I feel inspired. Oddly, by listening to really sappy girl-with-guitar music.

Agreed with everything.

Wow, I really thought I'd be on my own with most of my changes. Cool.

 

[PhotoJones]

I feel inspired. Oddly, by listening to really sappy girl-with-guitar music.

Who? I'm a Tegan and Sara guy, myself.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Haven't heard of them. I'll have to try them out. I've recently become pretty obsessed with a singer/songwriter named Madeline Adams, although she usually just goes by "Madeline." I also just heard Dar Williams and Coles Whalen, both for the first time, listening to Pandora at work.

 

[Aristotle]

I'd make Superman a socialist ass-kicker who solves the little guy's problems with violence.

I'd have Wonder Woman go beat up wife-beaters and deadbeat dads and I don't know, The Patriarchy. ****, that'd be her new supervillain. The Patriarchy.

Batman... Well, Batman beats up muggers and things. I mean, it's what he's for.

Green Lantern would be space-cop adventure stories.

I'd rename MM "The Alien" and play him as an immigrant story. He enters America in human guise as a political refugee from a war-torn country (when really he's a political refugee from a war-torn planet), puts in for asylum, and takes up life in an immigrant slum, where he secretly uses his Martian powers to right wrongs among the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

I can't think of a thematically appropriate source of conflict for a guy that runs really fast, and I'd have Aquaman protect the environment but then he'd just turn into Captain Planet, and I mean, **** Captain Planet. So those two are on hold.

Also, everyone for all intents and purposes occupies his own comic-book universe.

I figure instead of dickering around with the miscellaneous errata of origin stories and power levels, I'd focus on giving the characters some kind of actual dramatic purpose, past "beats up the interchangeable space-monster of the week."

I like these ideas for more of an "Ultimate DC" line than for a reboot. This isn't really what I want to read from the mainline DCU, but I've come to see Marvel's Ultimate line as useful, if only for one purpose: to tell the superhero stories with a point. This is where you get to tell the risky, political stories with established heroes. I'd tend to disagree with you on the self-contained idea--crossovers might be much more interesting in this context.

Flash could deal with issues pertaining to the pace of today's world, technology, etc. And there'd be nothing wrong with Captain Aqua-Planet.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If they can make Green Arrow's distant descendants environmentalist heroes, it could work for Aquaman, too.

 

[fifthfiend]

I like these ideas for more of an "Ultimate DC" line than for a reboot. This isn't really what I want to read from the mainline DCU, but I've come to see Marvel's Ultimate line as useful, if only for one purpose: to tell the superhero stories with a point. This is where you get to tell the risky, political stories with established heroes.

I can see where you're coming from, although I'm not really going for that Ultimate "gritty realism" style or anything. If anything I'm reaching for like, early, early Golden Age, where you had the state about to execute an innocent man and then Superman kicks the governor's door in and goes "dude, not cool," or some crooked-ass mine owner is working his employees to death and then Superman beats up his thuggish management and then steals the proof that Clark Kent needs to expose the whole thing in the Daily Planet (or Star or whatevs). If anything it'd read like an All-Star line, or at least an All-Star line without Frank Miller being a creepy old nutcase all over it.

The divided universes is mainly because I'd be more focused on superheroes used as a means of telling stories about real people, and just generally getting away from the endless super-on-super buddy-**** fanfic frenzy that the shared universes have more or less become. I don't need a bunch of pages of Superman and Batman arguing how okay it is to beat up muggers and politicians, I just want to see a bunch of crooked politicians ****ing over the little guy and then Superman beats them up, and then some mugger's about to stick up some guy and lady and their kids and then Batman beats them up. And like I want to see J'onn as an alien among aliens, I don't need him running into Superman and then Clark's like "You're from another planet? Awesome, me too!" Partly it's just about reestablishing these characters in a context where their very existence as heroes is itself a uniquely incredible and extraordinary thing, an effect which tends to get ruined once you've got them all hanging out together in their super-buddies secret clubhouse.

Anyway I'll grant as it's not for everyone, leastways in terms of what the vast majority of modern day comics fans look for in their super-stories. But I figure as long as these kind of threads come up as regularly as they do, I may as well go for something a bit further out there.

 

[PhotoJones]

Haven't heard of them. I'll have to try them out. I've recently become pretty obsessed with a singer/songwriter named Madeline Adams, although she usually just goes by "Madeline." I also just heard Dar Williams and Coles Whalen, both for the first time, listening to Pandora at work.

Tegan and Sara are a Canadian, indie-pop duo. It's pretty sugary, but if you're into 80's hooks and riffs with keyboards and synths, you might like it.

You mentioned Dar Williams; she's good. I've seen her live a couple times. I don't know Coles Whalen or Madeline Adams, but I'll check them out. If you haven't, you should give Jolie Holland, Neko Case, Nina Nastasia (incredible musician/singer-songwriter) a listen. They're all great.

 

[CConn]

Superman - Give Superman and Lois their own child with Mxyzptlk's help, just as Rucka was hinting at in his run. Also, bring back Conner Kent and Matrix, and make them, Power Girl, and Steel more of an extended family to Clark.

Batman - Bring back the Gotham Central police officers and use some of them instead of dealing solely with Gordon and Bullock. Have Dini write everything. Make Tim his own person again instead of a miniature clone of Bruce.

Wonder Woman - Make her less of a ******. I don't really mind the Diana Prince thing, though. I even kind of like Nemesis. Bring back more of a mythological influence alongside the political espionage stuff, though.

Martian Manhunter - For God's sake, put him on the JLA. Agree with Anubis on the rest: keep the costume, lose the emo. Though that seems to be the way they're going anyway.

Green Lantern - Ditch Hal and the Parallax fear demon, make John and Guy the sector Lanterns for 2814, keep Kyle as Ion and continue with the "troubleshooter" role he's got, and give Alan Scott more of a presence alongside Kyle. Everything else is fine.

Flash - Waid's doing pretty well.

Aquaman - Reveal that the Aquanewb is just a piece of Orin that splintered off, rejoin them, keep the water hand and Aquanewb's costume, keep the Arthurian, magical overtones, return him to his rightful place as an arrogant yet noble king, add Sub Diego to his kingdom, restore Tempest to a powerful sorcerer and make him Orin's chief advisor, keep Lorena around.

That's pretty good. Except for John existing. And Dini being on Batman.

 

[PhotoJones]

How is possible to dislike Dini on Batman?

 

[fifthfiend]

CConn's hate-fu is strong.

 

[PhotoJones]

It's also ******ed.

 

[CConn]

How is possible to dislike Dini on Batman?

I'll explain...

Firstly, I felt the writing itself was very bland. Normally, I love, LOVE self-contained issues. Jonah Hex is one of my favorite titles. I greatly enjoyed all of those Batman Strikes! comics due to how they're nothing more than fun, little self-contained adventures. But so far, Dini's self-contained stories just seemed very bland, uninteresting, and - probably worst of all - seem to make the villains of each piece much more interesting than Batman himself.

Secondly, Dini's characterization of Batman himself was very, very unlikeable. It was as if you're reading the same jerk-off Batman from the past five years. He's just not a character I like, or would want to read about.

Not to mention the art did absolutely nothing but turn me off even more towards the book. Don Kramer shouldn't be on this book. He wasn't originally chosen for it for a very apparent reason; he's just not that good. He's a mediocre artist who should be off doing pointless fill-ins, not one of DC's flagship titles.

Add to that how Dini (for the most part) has offered absolutely no character progression for Batman is also highly disappointing. It's totally stagnant. And, truthfully, the issues in which Dini actually did write Batman as a living, breathing human being (like the latest Zatanna arc), I've enjoyed the writing much more.

Oh, and it should also be noted Dini's one of the very few writers in comics that can't even turn in scripts on a monthly basis. If he can't write one Batman title regularly, how on Earth could he write all of them?

 

[CConn]

Simply, I'll say this; I think we can all agree Rucka's Batman was 10 times better. While he had the same tone and style as Dini's gritty urbanism, he actually provided quality story and character progression for not just Batman, but all of Gotham.

And Brubaker should so be back on Batman it's not even funny.

 

[PhotoJones]

That's actually a pretty well thought out and intelligent answer.

I disagree, obviously and here's why:

You mentioned that Dini's stories to be character pieces for the villians and not for Batman, himself. I can see where you're coming from on that one. I don't necessarily dislike that, though. I mean, if you think about it, the animated series was the same way. Each episode opened with a villian and gave the viewer a look into the villian's mind to understand the motivation and/or backstory. Then Batman showed up and stopped them. That's really the formula that the show followed with a few exceptions. I see Detective Comics as a continuation of that formula, put to paper. Plus, Dini's done some things that get into Bruce's head. He narrarates every issue, for one. Another good example comes from the Bruce/Lois issue. They worked together to get some dirt on the Penguin, with Zatanna's help, of course. I thought that was a pretty good indication of where Batman is as a character. He's not the same old *****ebag Batman you're claiming he is. he even gave Ivy the benefit of the doubt before she, you know, killed people on camera. Dini's also inserted little bits of characterization for Robin. In the same issue, he's shown playing "Animal, Vegetable or Mineral" with Ivy to pass the time. Not only is he giving Ivy the benefit of the doubt by not being an ass around her, but Dini wrote the scene to include a game that would show off Tim's detection skills. I thought that was a nice little peek into their characters.

As for Kramer, I like his work. He's not breaking new ground with his pencils, but they're competant and he gets the job done. I've seen a lot worse.

 

[CConn]

BTAS did give a lot of focus to the villains. As did B89 (which I love). But they both seemed to give Batman such a styled, spooky presence - and even used the lack of focus on Batman to say things about the character. I don't feel that in Detective. It doesn't feel like a continuation of BTAS (which I would love more than anything in the world, btw). It, to me, at least, feels more like a gritty urban take on Batman rather than a Gothic Noir Fantasy that was BTAS and B89. With those, I think, it's easier to mystify Batman and make even the simpliest appearances seem cool. With the gritty take, he just seems like a guy in a costume.

 

[Aristotle]

I can see where you're coming from, although I'm not really going for that Ultimate "gritty realism" style or anything.

I think that's a mischaracterization of the Ultimate line (although it's one I have made often.) I think the Ultimate "style," if an overarching style can be said to exist, is just to provide a reboot. But with the best Ultimate books, there's a POINT. The Ultimates has a point, and it's good. Ultimate Spider-Man has no point at all, and it sucks. Ultimate X-Men sort of has a point, and it's decent.

If anything I'm reaching for like, early, early Golden Age, where you had the state about to execute an innocent man and then Superman kicks the governor's door in and goes "dude, not cool," or some crooked-ass mine owner is working his employees to death and then Superman beats up his thuggish management and then steals the proof that Clark Kent needs to expose the whole thing in the Daily Planet (or Star or whatevs). If anything it'd read like an All-Star line, or at least an All-Star line without Frank Miller being a creepy old nutcase all over it.

Fair enough. Stylistically, I don't care where it is, but I think these kinds of "superheroes with a point" stories belong in an Ultimate/All-Star line, rather than in the mainline DCU. Doesn't mean I don't want to see them--I do. Very much a lot.

The divided universes is mainly because I'd be more focused on superheroes used as a means of telling stories about real people, and just generally getting away from the endless super-on-super buddy-**** fanfic frenzy that the shared universes have more or less become.

Again, fair enough, but I think some of the issues that you have the characters revolving around could be juxtaposed with interesting results.

 

[The Question]

Superman: Make Superman's secret identity slightly more plausible by having him shun media attention and simply focus on saving lives. As Superman, he'd be more like Lois' guardian angel than her boyfriend. Metropolis would be a fictional version of the real life Metropolis Illinois, the expansion and urbanization of which was spearheaded by Lex Luthor. Lex is a billionair scientist and buisnessman who's expertise is in electronics, engineering, and computer programing. He's made Metropolis into the perfect city by secretly controling all major aspects of it, like the police, the city government, and even organized crime, and killing anyone who says otherwise. He has long term plans for the rest of the world, his main focus at the moment being the middle east, and eventually plans to run for president. He initially tries to get Superman to work for him, and succeeds in doing so, but Superman cuts all ties with Luthor after seeing the skelitons in his closet, and they become enemies. Most of Superman's enemies exist or are present because of Luthor: Metallo was a hitman for Intergang who was turned into a cyborg by Luthor to kill Superman, Bizarro was created to kill and replace Superman, The Parasite got his powers in one of Lexcorp's illegal genetic experiments, Toyman was a serial killer groomed by Lex to target organized crime figures in order to keep them in check, and Brainiac came to Metropolis to use Lexcorp's resources. I would minimize the presence of Kryptonite greatly, and have Superman's villains either match him physically, outsmart him, or have other powers that level the playing field. My biggest change would be, simply to not be repeatative, have Zod and that crowd be the leaders of a small band of Kryptonian refugees who come to Earth seeking a home, and then tentiones quickly flare and escalate into violence.

Batman: At the very begining of his crime fighting career, Bruce wouldn't be all that effective. He's just walk around at night, scare the **** out of people, and every now and then beat up a mugger or rapist and tie him up for the cops. It isn't until he starts secretly working with Dent and Gordon, and starts playing up on the fact that he's a detective, that he gets anything accomplished. I'd minimize the revolving door aspect of Arkham by having villains like The Joker get caught less often. I'd also portray The Riddler as a fairly compitent, albeit manic-depressive and OCD, criminal mastermind who is a thorn in Batman and Gordon's side, but as he sticks to thefts and con jobs, is fairly low on their to do list. The villains Clayface, Copperhead, and Killer Croc would have been normal (although in Croc's case, deformed) Arkham inmates who received super powers from the experiments of Dr. Hugo Strange, and Kirk Langstrom, simply for the sake of making him less of a rip off of The Lizard, would have been a physician at Arkham who found out too much. Carmine Falcone, Black Mask, and The Penguin would be recurring characters, and Gotham's biggest crime lords. Maxie Zeus would be the leader of a cult/street gang. Dick Grayson would have been closer to sixteen when he came under Bruce's wing, and Bruce would have trained him more because Dick was going to be a vigilante regardless, and he wanted to make sure he didn't get killed. Bruce's three main teachers would have been Ted Grant, Henri Ducard, and Ra's Al Ghul (Bruce initially thought he was merely an eccentric billionare, not a terrorist).

Wonder Woman: Themyscirca would be mainly the same. The mystical nature of the Amazons' physical prowess and longevity, and Wonder Woman's powers, would be largely debated by the rest of the world. Diana's main foes would be figures of Greek mythology, and more political and/or militaristic types, as she would encounted corrupt leaders in her role as ambasadore, and would often volunteer to aid U.N. Peacekeeping forces and keep the troops in line. She would also be a major political activist, and quasi-spiritual figure in the sense that she freely talks about her spiritual beliefs when asked.

So, yeah, basically the best ideas from Greg Rucka's run.

Martian Manhunter: I'd have him have been on Earth since the 1850s instead of the 1950s, mainly because I love doing flashbacks, and play up on the idea that he doesn't just have one secret identity, he's got hundreds all over the world. He'd be even more mysterious than Batman, and the source of interest for some of the more fringe cosnpiracy theorists, occultists, and UFO enthuseists. He also has ties to many of the other characters, serving as Clark kent's history teacher and a member of Diana's Embasy staff, as well as having ties to Lex Luthor. Not that he trusts, likes, or agrees with the man. He simply adheres to the old saying, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

Green Lantern: I'd keep the partner system the GLC has now, and loose the yellow weakness entirely. I'd also ditch Parallax and the other color coded emotion pokemon things. Hal and John would be sector 2814's GL's, Guy would be a member of the GLC's black ops devision, Kyle would be Ion, and for the sake of simplicity, I'd have Alan Scott be the former holder of a possition very similar to the one Kyle holds now. He'd be the hero cop who's pulled out of retirement for "one last case." Sinestro would be a dirty cop who was kicked out of the GLC, and his personality would be modeled after New York gangster Willaim "Bill The Butcher" Poole. Hal and John would be part time members of the League, as theyr duties as GLs keeps them busy in space.

The Flash: I'd have Barry's ID have been public from fairly early on, although not right away, as he would have had a hard time juggling his secret identity with his police work, and it's just easier to have it all be on the department's time. He'd have been Central City's hero cop. I'd also state that his power is, at it's core, the ability to absorb and manipulate kinetic energy, which obviously lends itself largely to super speed. The Speed Force would be a bit more mysterious, with a lot of people initially thinking that it's just Max Mercury and Savitar spouting mystical mumbo-jumbo. The Rogues would basically be the same: a bunch of thieves who used mostly stolen technology to up the ante in response to a crime fighter who can punch you at 500 MPH.

Aquaman: I'd play up on the mystical nature of Atlantis, and have the Atlantians be, at least partially, mystical in the nature of their existence, being similar to gods and other mythological beings in the DCU to an extent, and have Atlantis be an amalgamation of every sea going myth every to be conjured on the Atlantic. Orin would be much more interested in keeping his people isolated from the outside world, and his public status would be down played.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

But... why? Dini was made for Batman, and Batman deserves good comics before Hawkstupidman.

you don't like hawkman?!


*takes a piss on corp*

 

[Darthphere]

Wonder Woman - Make her less of a ******. I don't really mind the Diana Prince thing, though. I even kind of like Nemesis. Bring back more of a mythological influence alongside the political espionage stuff, though.

I got to say that I'm a fan of Diana Prince but have been disappointed that they have literally have done nothing with that aspect of her character, and it seems Simone is going to get rid of that too.

 

[Lane & Kent]

Superman: Make Superman's secret identity slightly more plausible by having him shun media attention and simply focus on saving lives. As Superman, he'd be more like Lois' guardian angel than her boyfriend. Metropolis would be a fictional version of the real life Metropolis Illinois, the expansion and urbanization of which was spearheaded by Lex Luthor. Lex is a billionair scientist and buisnessman who's expertise is in electronics, engineering, and computer programing. He's made Metropolis into the perfect city by secretly controling all major aspects of it, like the police, the city government, and even organized crime, and killing anyone who says otherwise. He has long term plans for the rest of the world, his main focus at the moment being the middle east, and eventually plans to run for president. He initially tries to get Superman to work for him, and succeeds in doing so, but Superman cuts all ties with Luthor after seeing the skelitons in his closet, and they become enemies. Most of Superman's enemies exist or are present because of Luthor: Metallo was a hitman for Intergang who was turned into a cyborg by Luthor to kill Superman, Bizarro was created to kill and replace Superman, The Parasite got his powers in one of Lexcorp's illegal genetic experiments, Toyman was a serial killer groomed by Lex to target organized crime figures in order to keep them in check, and Brainiac came to Metropolis to use Lexcorp's resources. I would minimize the presence of Kryptonite greatly, and have Superman's villains either match him physically, outsmart him, or have other powers that level the playing field. My biggest change would be, simply to not be repeatative, have Zod and that crowd be the leaders of a small band of Kryptonian refugees who come to Earth seeking a home, and then tentiones quickly flare and escalate into violence.

Batman: At the very begining of his crime fighting career, Bruce wouldn't be all that effective. He's just walk around at night, scare the **** out of people, and every now and then beat up a mugger or rapist and tie him up for the cops. It isn't until he starts secretly working with Dent and Gordon, and starts playing up on the fact that he's a detective, that he gets anything accomplished. I'd minimize the revolving door aspect of Arkham by having villains like The Joker get caught less often. I'd also portray The Riddler as a fairly compitent, albeit manic-depressive and OCD, criminal mastermind who is a thorn in Batman and Gordon's side, but as he sticks to thefts and con jobs, is fairly low on their to do list. The villains Clayface, Copperhead, and Killer Croc would have been normal (although in Croc's case, deformed) Arkham inmates who received super powers from the experiments of Dr. Hugo Strange, and Kirk Langstrom, simply for the sake of making him less of a rip off of The Lizard, would have been a physician at Arkham who found out too much. Carmine Falcone, Black Mask, and The Penguin would be recurring characters, and Gotham's biggest crime lords. Maxie Zeus would be the leader of a cult/street gang. Dick Grayson would have been closer to sixteen when he came under Bruce's wing, and Bruce would have trained him more because Dick was going to be a vigilante regardless, and he wanted to make sure he didn't get killed. Bruce's three main teachers would have been Ted Grant, Henri Ducard, and Ra's Al Ghul (Bruce initially thought he was merely an eccentric billionare, not a terrorist).

Wonder Woman: Themyscirca would be mainly the same. The mystical nature of the Amazons' physical prowess and longevity, and Wonder Woman's powers, would be largely debated by the rest of the world. Diana's main foes would be figures of Greek mythology, and more political and/or militaristic types, as she would encounted corrupt leaders in her role as ambasadore, and would often volunteer to aid U.N. Peacekeeping forces and keep the troops in line. She would also be a major political activist, and quasi-spiritual figure in the sense that she freely talks about her spiritual beliefs when asked.

So, yeah, basically the best ideas from Greg Rucka's run.

Martian Manhunter: I'd have him have been on Earth since the 1850s instead of the 1950s, mainly because I love doing flashbacks, and play up on the idea that he doesn't just have one secret identity, he's got hundreds all over the world. He'd be even more mysterious than Batman, and the source of interest for some of the more fringe cosnpiracy theorists, occultists, and UFO enthuseists. He also has ties to many of the other characters, serving as Clark kent's history teacher and a member of Diana's Embasy staff, as well as having ties to Lex Luthor. Not that he trusts, likes, or agrees with the man. He simply adheres to the old saying, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

Green Lantern: I'd keep the partner system the GLC has now, and loose the yellow weakness entirely. I'd also ditch Parallax and the other color coded emotion pokemon things. Hal and John would be sector 2814's GL's, Guy would be a member of the GLC's black ops devision, Kyle would be Ion, and for the sake of simplicity, I'd have Alan Scott be the former holder of a possition very similar to the one Kyle holds now. He'd be the hero cop who's pulled out of retirement for "one last case." Sinestro would be a dirty cop who was kicked out of the GLC, and his personality would be modeled after New York gangster Willaim "Bill The Butcher" Poole. Hal and John would be part time members of the League, as theyr duties as GLs keeps them busy in space.

The Flash: I'd have Barry's ID have been public from fairly early on, although not right away, as he would have had a hard time juggling his secret identity with his police work, and it's just easier to have it all be on the department's time. He'd have been Central City's hero cop. I'd also state that his power is, at it's core, the ability to absorb and manipulate kinetic energy, which obviously lends itself largely to super speed. The Speed Force would be a bit more mysterious, with a lot of people initially thinking that it's just Max Mercury and Savitar spouting mystical mumbo-jumbo. The Rogues would basically be the same: a bunch of thieves who used mostly stolen technology to up the ante in response to a crime fighter who can punch you at 500 MPH.

Aquaman: I'd play up on the mystical nature of Atlantis, and have the Atlantians be, at least partially, mystical in the nature of their existence, being similar to gods and other mythological beings in the DCU to an extent, and have Atlantis be an amalgamation of every sea going myth every to be conjured on the Atlantic. Orin would be much more interested in keeping his people isolated from the outside world, and his public status would be down played.

I LOVE all your ideas, but I'd make The Flash Jay Garrick

 

[The Question]

I LOVE all your ideas, but I'd make The Flash Jay Garrick

C'mon, Jay needs to be the old guy who still kicks ass and dispenses sage wisdom to the youngins. He and Alan and Ted were with the JSA way back when. Barry just took up the name of Keystone City's legendary hero.

 

[Lane & Kent]

C'mon, Jay needs to be the old guy who still kicks ass and dispenses sage wisdom to the youngins. He and Alan and Ted were with the JSA way back when. Barry just took up the name of Keystone City's legendary hero.

The more I think about it the more I agree with you.

P.S Just wonding which version of Krypton would you use.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I got to say that I'm a fan of Diana Prince but have been disappointed that they have literally have done nothing with that aspect of her character, and it seems Simone is going to get rid of that too.

I hope not. I thought it was pretty slick. Hell, put Diana Prince in Checkmate! That might be pretty sweet if she was a bishop or a knight.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought of using Checkmate to expand on Wonder Woman's alter-ego, but I think it'd be bad for Checkmate if it became a circus of recognizable characters. I actually could go for a few more original or obscure characters like Tommy Jagger and Mademoiselle Marie for Rucka to develop.