"If you outlaw heroes, then only outlaws will be heroes.."

[MaskedManJRK]

I'm gonna assume that you're REALLY REALLY young to say something that misinformed. Illegal immigration has been an issue for decades, and a major issue for the past 20 years. It's really what might be called a "hibernation" issue. Every couple of years it gets brought up and there's a big fuss about it, then it dies out for a little while. Then someone brings up how comic books/TV/Music/Video games are corrupting our kids, then that fades and someone brings up whether flag burning is constitutional or not, then someone yells about prayer in schools, then it's the pledge of allegiance, then someone brings up immigration again, and the cycle repeats.

They really started that when voting time started again. That's what both sides do all the time at this time--try and divide the people with a seemingly new issue while the old s**t is ignored. They did it with same sex marriage last time, and now they're doing it for illegal immigration.

 

[Vanguard07]

Yeah. Vigilante activity is SO the same thing as alchohol. Seriously, the two things aren't comperable. Vigilante activity is barely legal as it is. The act simply is trying to control vigilantes, both super powered and otherwise. Make sure that they're properly trained and actually answer to the government.

Yes it's the same thing in that banning things never works. Banning drugs just creates drug crimes. Banning alcohol just creates organized crime and bootleggers. People are going to do what they want to do and the government cant stop that. When they try to stop it people will fight it and far more people will get hurt than if they just left it alone.

Written law precludes justice because it leaves no room for circumstance.

 

[Elijya]

THEY'RE NOT BANNING SUPERHEROES!!!


they're organizing them! yeesh, how many times?

 

[Trask]

Yes it's the same thing in that banning things never works. Banning drugs just creates drug crimes. Banning alcohol just creates organized crime and bootleggers. People are going to do what they want to do and the government cant stop that. When they try to stop it people will fight it and far more people will get hurt than if they just left it alone.

Written law precludes justice because it leaves no room for circumstance.

They are not talking about banning Superheroes, just putting some kind of legislation to train and keep a record of them. Your alcohol and drugs argument just does not make sence for a number of reason. It would make more sence if you compared it to doctors and firemen. I mean would you let anyone just wake up one day and say "hey I know a bit about medicin I think I will go out there and open a surgery, without any training or registering". Currently that is what the hereos are doing.

 

[The Question]

Yes it's the same thing in that banning things never works. Banning drugs just creates drug crimes. Banning alcohol just creates organized crime and bootleggers. People are going to do what they want to do and the government cant stop that. When they try to stop it people will fight it and far more people will get hurt than if they just left it alone.

Written law precludes justice because it leaves no room for circumstance.

First off, as Elijya said, thei're not banning them. And second, vigilante activity is very different from alchohol or drugs. These are untrained, on ufficial crime fighters meddling in police matters. What they do is barely legal already. When one of them screws up, the feds are going to get flustered. That's why they want to make sure they either become federal agents or quit. For the safety of the comunity. And truthfully, it does make a certain amount of sense.

 

[MajinShenron]

I'm gonna assume that you're REALLY REALLY young to say something that misinformed. Illegal immigration has been an issue for decades, and a major issue for the past 20 years. It's really what might be called a "hibernation" issue. Every couple of years it gets brought up and there's a big fuss about it, then it dies out for a little while. Then someone brings up how comic books/TV/Music/Video games are corrupting our kids, then that fades and someone brings up whether flag burning is constitutional or not, then someone yells about prayer in schools, then it's the pledge of allegiance, then someone brings up immigration again, and the cycle repeats.

Things like those are brought up once in a while, but nothing is done. Tell me, when was the last time illegal immigrants went on a strike? Doesn't ring a bell to me. And part of the reason why there are so many illegal immigrants here is because no one has been enforcing the law. Its like free cake on a table and no one is looking. Would you take a bite? Probably.

And you talk about having fads, well, there have been people in comics getting mad at heroes for hiding under masks. Look at J Jonah Jameson. He gets mad Spider-man hides behind a mask.

And you may be right, it might of been done earlier. But when super heroes first started coming out, not many of those heroes wore masks and there weren't that many. Now you look at it and there are tons of heroes, mutants, etc. And I can't remember the last time someone suggested this, it looks like a pretty original idea to me.

 

[Kotagg]

Tell me, when was the last time illegal immigrants went on a strike? Doesn't ring a bell to me.

Umm...less than a MONTH ago? Are you kidding me?

 

[Elijya]

immigrants don't have to be on strike for immigration to be an issue

 

[Kotagg]

Agreed. I should know, I live in Cali and half of my extended family are illegal.

 

[BrianWilly]

People keep saying "You can't compare the SH registration act to registering alcohol!" And yet, the same sort of reasoning can be applied to the counter-argument where people keep saying that the license to own guns and drive cars is proof that superheroes need a license to use their powers. Well, the major flaw in comparing the registration of superheroes to the registration of vehicle drivers and gun owners is that people who drive cars and buy guns aren't out there voluntarily risking their own lives to save ours, every single day. There is no comparison; these are people giving their free time and their lives to perform a much-needed community service, not people who use these dangerous "privileges" for recreation and travel.

If some heroes obviously need to be trained, then train them, fine. But when you go around labelling the entire community of heroes -- several of whom have saved the world many times over -- like criminals, that's really just accusing people of and prosecuting people for crimes that they hadn't even committed. And there's no way to defend that.

Of course superheroes don't trust the government; the Marvel U government can't be trusted! You think that's paranoid and oversensitive? Look at how the government in the Marvel universe actually works: they have traditionally and constantly lambasted superheroes and persecuted them for the flimsiest of excuses. And yet they are often completely laissez-faire on their attitude towards supervillains and will often let these murderers and rapists off with a slap on the wrist. Agent Hill wants to know why Spider-Man hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin? I want to know why the hell Agent Hill hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin.

They'll hunt constantly for Daredevil, and yet they'll give Magneto an entire nation of his own. They constantly strive to make the superheroes' jobs harder and make the supervillains' jobs easier. If you were a superhero in this sort of world, would you trust the government either? How long would it be before your public identity gets passed on to the nearest widow-maker villain with some sort of "agreement" with SHIELD?

There is a distinct and blatant line between a hero and a villain, and this act is just the latest in a long tradition of the Marvel universe's need to blur that line. Which is fine from the meta-narrative perspective -- aka the perspective of writers to write an interesting story and the perspective of readers to read it -- but it's certainly not okay from the perspective of characters who actually live in this world. Fans sometimes bring up the cliche that the main difference between the DCU and the Marvel U is that the DCU has godlike superheroes while the Marvel has more humane ones; I, however, will argue that the only substantial difference between the two universes nowadays is that the DCU treats their heroes with reverence while the Marvel U treats their heroes with suspicion.

 

[The Question]

Really, the only thing the SH registration act is comperable to is our government's aditude towards vigilantes. It's not technically illegal, but it is frowned upon, more often then not innocent people get hurt because the vigilantes aren't properly trained, and law enforcement agencies will use whatever excuses they can to put the vigilantes in jail. It's just that in the MU, the vigilantes can throw cars around and blow things up with their minds. That's a good deal more dangerous. It does make sense that they'd want them to register with the authorities, be properly trained, and become agents of the government.

 

[tgjensen]

My guess heroes like the FF and Avengers end up on government payroll, like they've more or less been always, and heroes like Spider-Man and the X-Men have their "bad-boy" vigilante images reinforced. So, in the end, not too big a change.

 

[Trask]

People keep saying "You can't compare the SH registration act to registering alcohol!" And yet, the same sort of reasoning can be applied to the counter-argument where people keep saying that the license to own guns and drive cars is proof that superheroes need a license to use their powers. Well, the major flaw in comparing the registration of superheroes to the registration of vehicle drivers and gun owners is that people who drive cars and buy guns aren't out there voluntarily risking their own lives to save ours, every single day. There is no comparison; these are people giving their free time and their lives to perform a much-needed community service, not people who use these dangerous "privileges" for recreation and travel.

If some heroes obviously need to be trained, then train them, fine. But when you go around labelling the entire community of heroes -- several of whom have saved the world many times over -- like criminals, that's really just accusing people of and prosecuting people for crimes that they hadn't even committed. And there's no way to defend that.

Of course superheroes don't trust the government; the Marvel U government can't be trusted! You think that's paranoid and oversensitive? Look at how the government in the Marvel universe actually works: they have traditionally and constantly lambasted superheroes and persecuted them for the flimsiest of excuses. And yet they are often completely laissez-faire on their attitude towards supervillains and will often let these murderers and rapists off with a slap on the wrist. Agent Hill wants to know why Spider-Man hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin? I want to know why the hell Agent Hill hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin.

They'll hunt constantly for Daredevil, and yet they'll give Magneto an entire nation of his own. They constantly strive to make the superheroes' jobs harder and make the supervillains' jobs easier. If you were a superhero in this sort of world, would you trust the government either? How long would it be before your public identity gets passed on to the nearest widow-maker villain with some sort of "agreement" with SHIELD?

There is a distinct and blatant line between a hero and a villain, and this act is just the latest in a long tradition of the Marvel universe's need to blur that line. Which is fine from the meta-narrative perspective -- aka the perspective of writers to write an interesting story and the perspective of readers to read it -- but it's certainly not okay from the perspective of characters who actually live in this world. Fans sometimes bring up the cliche that the main difference between the DCU and the Marvel U is that the DCU has godlike superheroes while the Marvel has more humane ones; I, however, will argue that the only substantial difference between the two universes nowadays is that the DCU treats their heroes with reverence while the Marvel U treats their heroes with suspicion.

Ok a couple of counterpoints to your argument. A number of heroes have been indirectly responsible for the deaths of civilians due to thier carlessness because they are unwilling or unable to rely on others because of the whole secret identity. Case in point look at MKSM 2-4.

Also lets not forget that Fury/SHIELD already knows the secret identity of most of the heroes in MU and they have yet to disclose this information to any of the known Supervillans so I dont think your argument really works there. And as I have said already most of the heroes secret identities is already know by thier worst enemies.

I think the reason that people compared it to car licence is to point out that those registrations are there to ensure that people cant just go out and drive cars without proper training and examination and risk other peoples lives. If you prefer compare the act to secret services or undercover cops. They are also risking thier lives but they also have to register, you dont see them complaining about thier government betraiying them and their enemies coming after thier family.

As for the government not being trustworthy, I think that is being a bit simplistic. As I have said before Fury/SHIELD already knows most of the heroes secret identity but they have kept that information from leaking out for a number of years and they are a governamental agency.

As for the whole DD think I dont know much about what is happening there but I would think it would work out much better for him if there was a deparment of the goverment he could go to if he has a problem with the police and they would try and solve the problem while protecting his identity (If he had not been outed).

As for Magneto and other villans getting a slap on the had, that is not exactly true. Like almost all comic worlds (even DC), they have a very hard time keeping them locked up (just look at Arkam). If it was the real world all those villans would have been put to the gas chamber a long time ago. But then the heroes would not have a rouges gallery and they would have to come up with a new villan every story.

As for the DC world treating thier heroes with more reverance, I find it a bit strange how no one every really questions any of thier heroes and have an almost blind belief in them. I mean look what happened in IC, I thought that after that incident there would be some anti-heroe sentiment, but no sooner is it over than everyone seems to have forgotten what has happened and still seem to trust thier super powered heroes without question.

 

[The Question]

As for the government not being trustworthy, I think that is being a bit simplistic. As I have said before Fury/SHIELD already knows most of the heroes secret identity but they have kept that information from leaking out for a number of years and they are a governamental agency.

Not really. They answer to the U.N., not any one government.

 

[Zoken]

Can I bring up the ****-storm that has been Spidey's life? Every time a villain found out about his identity, they went after his family, and his friends. With SHRA that information will be available to the highest bidder. You can say "Closed file" all you like, but two points to argue: Corruption touches everywhere, no matter how idealistic you are, and people will argue freedome of information. they will find out, they will post, and those lives will be ruined.

What I want to ask, really, is why is it, guys who are stopping crimes, not taking the law into their own hands, but stopping crimes, are being forced to out themselves. Does the governement keep track of EVERY guy who ever stopped a purse snatcher? or EVERY neighborhood watch group? These people are civilian citizens helping their communities, and had the bad fortune of fate to have these gifts. so which are they being prosecuted for; the gift or the protection they give?

Besides, if first they say "We want to register every meta-human who tries to stop crime", next they'll want to register every meta-human. then they'll want to register everyone. it is a slippery slope that you start upon with this bill. I'm with Cap.

 

[The Question]

The thing is, they're beyond neighborhood watch groups and the 18 year old kid who tripped up that purse snatcher that one time. They're vigilantes. They're basically doing police work and yet not being properly trained officers of the law. Add to that they have super powers, and that makes them very dangerous in the eyes of the government. The SH registration act makes sense, and is something that would probably happen in the real world.

 

[Zoken]

So only law enforcment should have the right and privilige of trying to save lives? Only those trained should be allowed to defend strangers? No civilian should ever try and stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis?

And keep powers out of the mix, most of them only have powers because of accidents, or their own genetic make up. they did ask for them, they did want them, but the fact that they have them, and STILL chose to do good with them is a big token in their favor.

 

[The Question]

So only law enforcment should have the right and privilige of trying to save lives? Only those trained should be allowed to defend strangers? No civilian should ever try and stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis?

They're not trained in police procedure or matters of the law, for the most part. Hell, for the most part, none of them are trained at all. And yet they go out every night doing a police officer's job for them. In the eyes of the governemnt, that is very dangerous.

And keep powers out of the mix, most of them only have powers because of accidents, or their own genetic make up. they did ask for them, they did want them, but the fact that they have them, and STILL chose to do good with them is a big token in their favor.

Except, from the government's stand point, what they should have done is joined the polive force or the military. Not become vigilantes.

 

[Zoken]

They didn't want to become police officers, they didn't want others to know that they had powers, there have been violent pourings against mutants, and against Spider-man. they wanted to help people in private, recieve nothing in return, and go about their lives.

as far as police procedure goes, they aren't doing a police officer's job. they aren't enforcing laws, they aren't arresting, they are stopping crimes and protecting their fellow citizens. cases like the punisher are different, but these are people who just want to help their neighbors, not people who want to punish criminals.

 

[The Question]

They didn't want to become police officers, they didn't want others to know that they had powers, there have been violent pourings against mutants, and against Spider-man. they wanted to help people in private, recieve nothing in return, and go about their lives.

And that makes them vigilantes. Which is frowned upon by the government. Their stance is "if you want to help your comunity, become a cop."

as far as police procedure goes, they aren't doing a police officer's job. they aren't enforcing laws, they aren't arresting, they are stopping crimes and protecting their fellow citizens. cases like the punisher are different, but these are people who just want to help their neighbors, not people who want to punish criminals.

They're still vigilantes. And, as I said, the government's stance is that they could easily help their comunity as police officers.

 

[Purple Man]

I hope to see this spray painted on a wall sometime during the Civil War.

"Who watches the Watchmen?"

Seems kind of poignant.

 

[Zoken]

So one has to be "Trained" and "Registered" if they want to save a life? What about those such as Tony, Dr. Strange, Punisher, etc. who don't have powers actually have powers? technically anything the can do, anyone else could do (With training)

or on the flip side, what about mutants and meta-humans who have powers, but aren't vigilantes? or retired super-heroes, do they all have to register? where will they draw the line?

 

[Dread]

People keep saying "You can't compare the SH registration act to registering alcohol!" And yet, the same sort of reasoning can be applied to the counter-argument where people keep saying that the license to own guns and drive cars is proof that superheroes need a license to use their powers. Well, the major flaw in comparing the registration of superheroes to the registration of vehicle drivers and gun owners is that people who drive cars and buy guns aren't out there voluntarily risking their own lives to save ours, every single day. There is no comparison; these are people giving their free time and their lives to perform a much-needed community service, not people who use these dangerous "privileges" for recreation and travel.

If some heroes obviously need to be trained, then train them, fine. But when you go around labelling the entire community of heroes -- several of whom have saved the world many times over -- like criminals, that's really just accusing people of and prosecuting people for crimes that they hadn't even committed. And there's no way to defend that.

Of course superheroes don't trust the government; the Marvel U government can't be trusted! You think that's paranoid and oversensitive? Look at how the government in the Marvel universe actually works: they have traditionally and constantly lambasted superheroes and persecuted them for the flimsiest of excuses. And yet they are often completely laissez-faire on their attitude towards supervillains and will often let these murderers and rapists off with a slap on the wrist. Agent Hill wants to know why Spider-Man hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin? I want to know why the hell Agent Hill hasn't gotten rid of the Green Goblin.

They'll hunt constantly for Daredevil, and yet they'll give Magneto an entire nation of his own. They constantly strive to make the superheroes' jobs harder and make the supervillains' jobs easier. If you were a superhero in this sort of world, would you trust the government either? How long would it be before your public identity gets passed on to the nearest widow-maker villain with some sort of "agreement" with SHIELD?

There is a distinct and blatant line between a hero and a villain, and this act is just the latest in a long tradition of the Marvel universe's need to blur that line. Which is fine from the meta-narrative perspective -- aka the perspective of writers to write an interesting story and the perspective of readers to read it -- but it's certainly not okay from the perspective of characters who actually live in this world. Fans sometimes bring up the cliche that the main difference between the DCU and the Marvel U is that the DCU has godlike superheroes while the Marvel has more humane ones; I, however, will argue that the only substantial difference between the two universes nowadays is that the DCU treats their heroes with reverence while the Marvel U treats their heroes with suspicion.

I see you must have agreed with some of my posts in some other topics.

This is also not even mentioning how many times the government has been willing to endorse giant robots to either track, hunt, or slaughter "genetic minorities", or how many downright criminals have been allowed to become "super agents" if they cut a "deal", no matter how bad they are. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (including Mystique, Blob, Pyro, Avalanche), Sabretooth, Puppet Master, even Venom have all enjoyed "agent" status so long as they were offering it to escape jailtime. Meanwhile, like you said, heroes are usually sought for the weakest of reasons. Naturally this is all to build suspence narratively, but you have a fair point.

But don't worry; CIVIL WAR won't endorse registration, I don't think. This is Millar. This is Marvel during a Republican Presidency and an unpopular war. The only good patriot to America is one that turns against America for "moral reasons". And Cap's never wrong.

 

[The Question]

So one has to be "Trained" and "Registered" if they want to save a life? What about those such as Tony, Dr. Strange, Punisher, etc. who don't have powers actually have powers? technically anything the can do, anyone else could do (With training)

Of course not. But there's a difference between saving someone's life and becoming a vigilante. Super heroes are vigilantes. And they do interfere with police procedure. The government's stance, both in the comics and in the real world, is that if you want to fight crime, become a cop. Otherwise, leave it to the proffesionals.

or on the flip side, what about mutants and meta-humans who have powers, but aren't vigilantes? or retired super-heroes, do they all have to register? where will they draw the line?

I have no idea. Nor is that what I'm talking about. Super heroes are vigilantes. Vigilantes who have the potential to be extremely dangerous. And vigilantes who, for the most part, are not properly trained and are basically learning things as they go along. From the government's stand point, that is incredibly dangerous. They'd rather see them be police officers than vigilantes. Which does make a certain amount of sense.

 

[Zoken]

BUT we are talking about the SHRA, which could be stretched to include Mutants and Meta's that don't act as vigilantes. just like the First amendment is stretched and disfigured to include Flag burning, abortion, and the right to privacy.