"If you outlaw heroes, then only outlaws will be heroes.."

[The Question]

BUT we are talking about the SHRA, which could be stretched to include Mutants and Meta's that don't act as vigilantes. just like the First amendment is stretched and disfigured to include Flag burning, abortion, and the right to privacy.

Yes, it could. But that's a different arguement. While I may not entirely agree with the SHRA, it has some justification, it is understandible, and had there been super powered vigilantes in this world as long as their have in the MU, it would have happened long ago here.

 

[Trask]

Not really. They answer to the U.N., not any one government.

You would think so, but the fact that they were willing to shoot Cap to force him to enforce a US policy does make it seem they are a US agency in practice if not in name.

Ok for all those people who are against the registration, let me ask you a question. Would you allow people that are not answerable to anyone wearing masks to fight crime on your streets using guns and other weapons. Most people would object to anyone taking such an action.

 

[The Question]

You would think so, but the fact that they were willing to shoot Cap to force him to enforce a US policy does make it seem they are a US agency in practice if not in name.

Well, the U.S., being the wealthiest nation on the planet, does have a controlling interest in the U.N.

 

[Trask]

Well, the U.S., being the wealthiest nation on the planet, does have a controlling interest in the U.N.

The way I see it, they are a UN agency only in name. I mean they are based in the US, they mainly deal with problems in the US or that threaten the US. I mean when was the last time you saw SHIELD tring to deal with problems in England/France/Germany or any other UN country. Not to mention that almost all the agents we see are from the US.


On a totaly different subject has anyone ever considered how many super heroes there are out there that are doing a bad job for every one that is doing an acceptable job? I mean there must be a number of others out there who want to be heroes and do not have what it takes but keep on doing it just because they have the power. Has anyone thought about this people?

You are all talking about the success stories like Spider man as an argument for your anti-registration, but how about all the others we do not hear about that have the power but lack the skill or the consideration for others safety but continue to play Hero for the trill of it?

If there is no agreed upon standard to separate this from those who are doing a good job of being a hero then how are we to decide who should be a hero and who is a danger to themselves and those around them? And then you need someone to keep a record of those who have been approved and those that are not fit to be hero, and enforce it.

Lets face it, there will always be some form of "corruption" in any organisation, it is a fact of life that no person is without flaw. The heroes of MU have had a number of years to set up some kind of self regulation to deal with some of this porblems but they have just ignored it and done whatever they wanted. Well now it is time for the government to do something about it.

The government has been very lineant and understanding about the whole super powered hero thing for a number of years now and has allowed them to do whatever they wanted, but the heroes have taken all this for granted and they look upon the privelages the goverment has granted them as their rights now. They seem to have forgotten that they are at the end of the day a citizen of the US with the same rights as everyone else. Just because they decide to play super hero does not mean they have different rules than everyone else.

 

[Xofenroht]

I understand why the registration would need to be set in place. Of course people should be held accountable for damages made during a super powered battle. Doesn't the city have to pay if property gets damaged while officers are enforcing the law? If someone were out on the streets fighting against what they believe is a crime I would question their motives. Why are you doing this? Are you a biased vigilante? Shouldn't parents have a right to know if their children or homes are at risk of super powered attack or mishap? Someone DOES have to be held responsible...

At the same time, there's something special and empowering about seeing someone like Spider-Man or Daredevil and not quite knowing who that person might be. They become folk/urban legends and there the city is taken over with its own quirk. Ordinary people have less fear and are put at ease knowing some greater power watches over them. Having them working under government restrictions humanizes them. Robbing them of their secret identities does much worse. It cripples them and while they are out here sacrificing their time and lives for the good of the people who knows what will happen to their families if some equally or more powerful super villain gets ahold of this data base.

I'm sure some of you heard about what happened recently. The names and social security numbers of US War Veterans were stolen from the database where they were kept. This could easily happen with the variety of super criminal masterminds existing within the Marvel Universe.
Add that onto scientific innovations and weapons technology. With these superheroes being employed by the government, their tools will now be the property of the US government. This means they can be used to whichever means they choose. Spidey's webshooters used in wars? Vibranium armor for military soldiers...doesn't Reed Richards have a time machine or something to that effect?

I'm totally against the Super Hero Registration Act

 

[BrianWilly]

Also lets not forget that Fury/SHIELD already knows the secret identity of most of the heroes in MU and they have yet to disclose this information to any of the known Supervillans so I dont think your argument really works there. And as I have said already most of the heroes secret identities is already know by thier worst enemies.

The fact that SHIELD kept files on superheroes was not public before. Passing the registration act is like literally shouting out in bright red neon, "LOOK HERE FOR SECRET IDENTITIES" to anyone who cares to listen.

Norman Osborne knows who Spider-Man is. So? Does that mean we should tell Eddie Brock, too? And Otto Octavius, and Herman Schultz, and the rest of his rogue's gallery?

If you prefer compare the act to secret services or undercover cops. They are also risking thier lives but they also have to register, you dont see them complaining about thier government betraiying them and their enemies coming after thier family.

People like that serve their government corporations of their own free will, and are paid accordingly; they aren't forced into anything. And they don't have to have to deal with supervillains like Venom and Dr. Doom. The difference between Spider-Man and a police officer is that you can kill a police officer; why go through the trouble of finding his family and his identity when you can just put a bullet in him? But you can't hurt Spider-Man by normal means, the only real way to do it is by hurting those close to him. Superheroes and police officers both risk their lives for their jobs, but in different ways. A secret identity means something completely different for the superhero whose only real weakness is his family and friends.

And a superhero is much more public than a secret agent, of course. The more power you have, the more good you can do, and therefore the more attention you attract. That's the point of the costume in the first place, to attract attention. And the only thing stopping all the "attention" from hurting those close to you is the mask.

As for the DC world treating thier heroes with more reverance, I find it a bit strange how no one every really questions any of thier heroes and have an almost blind belief in them. I mean look what happened in IC, I thought that after that incident there would be some anti-heroe sentiment, but no sooner is it over than everyone seems to have forgotten what has happened and still seem to trust thier super powered heroes without question.

The reason that people in the DCU trusts their heroes, other than the writers simply making it so, is that DCU superheroes are incredibly public with their heroics. It's hard to make an argument against the Justice League when you see them stop meteors and alien invasions on a monthly basis.

When the Crisis was going on, costumed heroes began popping out everywhere all over the world to help. They were very visible, and they were obviously risking their own lives to put out fires, help with relief efforts, answer emergency calls, evacuate disaster areas...and for the most part, they were effective and everyone knew it. Direct quote from the Villains United Special: "Never was the line between hero and villain so inescapably clear." Citizens of the DCU would honestly have to be deluding themselves halfway to schizophrenia if they treated their superheroes with fear and suspicion after their showing in the Crisis.

Joe Quesada pushed in a recent interview the idea that it should be difficult for the citizens of the Marvel U to be able to tell the heroes from the villains. While I think that's a somewhat fascinating story idea, I also think that it simply doesn't make much sense. I mean honestly; if there's someone standing in front of you and screamed "I'm a villain! I'm here to hurt you!" and then starts to hurt you, and then there's someone else screaming "I'm a hero! I'm here to protect you!" and then starts to protect you, how daft do you have to be to not be able to tell one from the other?

 

[BrianWilly]

Really, the only thing the SH registration act is comperable to is our government's aditude towards vigilantes. It's not technically illegal, but it is frowned upon, more often then not innocent people get hurt because the vigilantes aren't properly trained, and law enforcement agencies will use whatever excuses they can to put the vigilantes in jail.

Is that really the case?

The average vigilantes in the Marvel universe are people like Spider-Man and Daredevil. They may not have been trained by the government, but they're good at what they do and incredibly conscientious of innocent bystanders. Far more often than not, innocent people are saved because vigilantes are properly trained.

The incident with the New Warriors is the rarity, not the norm. Of course mistakes are going to happen, from experienced heroes as well, but the idea that the Marvel U is just overflowing at the seams with fresh n00bs who can't do their jobs is a pretty significant assumption to be making, especially without any evidence.

It's just that in the MU, the vigilantes can throw cars around and blow things up with their minds. That's a good deal more dangerous.

Then register those vigilantes that are being reckless and endangering lives. What does that have to do with established heroes that the government knows are helping people?

We all keep using the word "vigilante," but like Captain America said, costumed superheroes have been around in the Marvel U since the birth of the country. The idea of putting on a costume and going around stopping crime means something completely different in the Marvel universe than it might in the real world. The world owes a lot to superheroes. The number of times they've saved the world numbers in the double-digits.

 

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

THEY'RE NOT BANNING SUPERHEROES!!!


they're organizing them! yeesh, how many times?

so whats this about them banning superheroes?



what we've got here is; failure to communitect.

 

[Vanguard07]

I have an alternative to the registration act. Rather than have the government train and enforce all the super powered individuals why have the law make anyone who wants to do the superhero thing be part of a team.

Take some of the more established superheroes like Captain America, The fantastic Four, Iron man etc and make it so that if they vouche for you or if you spend enough time training from people like them then you can go out and do your hero thing.

It would appease the governments concern for training and control of powers and the superheroes would have a far smaller problem with trusting their peers then they would the government (and rightly so. Who would you rather trust with your identity and tactical information? Captain America or Director Hill?).

It'd be kinda like the Legion of superheroes thing. You have to register as a member with them and pass their tests to get your "membership" but the superheroes would still have control of their own lives and decisions.

 

[The Question]

Is that really the case?

The average vigilantes in the Marvel universe are people like Spider-Man and Daredevil. They may not have been trained by the government, but they're good at what they do and incredibly conscientious of innocent bystanders. Far more often than not, innocent people are saved because vigilantes are properly trained.

But they're not cops. Most don't have much understanding of legal matters. And since the authorities don't know who they are, on the rare occasion they do screw up or if they do cross the line, they can't be held acountable. Id a cop accidentally kills someone or uses unnecessairy force, internal afairs deals with them. They can't do that with the heroes.

Then register those vigilantes that are being reckless and endangering lives. What does that have to do with established heroes that the government knows are helping people?

Because they're still viglantes. They're not police officers and yet they're meddling in police buisness. Why take the time to judge which vigilantes have to be registered and which don't? Why not just register them all to be safe?

We all keep using the word "vigilante," but like Captain America said, costumed superheroes have been around in the Marvel U since the birth of the country. The idea of putting on a costume and going around stopping crime means something completely different in the Marvel universe than it might in the real world. The world owes a lot to superheroes. The number of times they've saved the world numbers in the double-digits.

That's very true. But I highly doubt that changes the government's opinion. These people are basically self taught vigilantes. They're not cops and they're not trained like cops. That makes the feds very nervous. The registration act is completely understandible and somewhat logical.

 

[BrianWilly]

But they're not cops. Most don't have much understanding of legal matters. And since the authorities don't know who they are, on the rare occasion they do screw up or if they do cross the line, they can't be held acountable. Id a cop accidentally kills someone or uses unnecessairy force, internal afairs deals with them. They can't do that with the heroes.

I think that there are ways to track down and deal with clearly incompetent superheroes without having to resort to vilification of an entire established community; SHIELD was able to find Spider-Man's identity by sweat samples, it's really not as if they couldn't find an errant vigilante if they really needed to.

Because they're still viglantes. They're not police officers and yet they're meddling in police buisness. Why take the time to judge which vigilantes have to be registered and which don't? Why not just register them all to be safe?

You have to take the time to judge which vigilantes have to be registered and which don't because because if you don't, you're punishing people for crimes that they haven't even committed. Innocent until proven guilty, that's a staple of our legal system too. The majority of all rapes and murders in this country are committed by adult white men, but you can't register every adult white man as a potential rapist or murderer. If you start to "register" every single potential crime, you might as well register everyone in the entire world.

Incidentally, that's the exact same argument that anti-mutant activists in the Marvel universe uses, that you shouldn't have to judge which mutants might be dangerous and which might not be; you should consider them all dangerous, just to be safe.

That's very true. But I highly doubt that changes the government's opinion. These people are basically self taught vigilantes. They're not cops and they're not trained like cops. That makes the feds very nervous. The registration act is completely understandible and somewhat logical.

Understandable, maybe, but logical? It's a very knee-jerk, ends-justify-the-means sort of legislation. Are they really making people safer when they persecute the very superheroes sworn to protect us, the very ones that have traditionally done a good job of it? At the end of the day, what exactly is it trying to protect? The innocent people on the street, or the politicians' sense of power and control?

 

[Trask]

The fact that SHIELD kept files on superheroes was not public before. Passing the registration act is like literally shouting out in bright red neon, "LOOK HERE FOR SECRET IDENTITIES" to anyone who cares to listen.

Norman Osborne knows who Spider-Man is. So? Does that mean we should tell Eddie Brock, too? And Otto Octavius, and Herman Schultz, and the rest of his rogue's gallery?

It might not be common knowledge but any villan who would be smart enough to get into the new registration information (If it ever gets passed) would have to be very smart (since Tony and other heroes like Reed would probably play a big part in setting up the security system), so it is not very far fatched to suppose that they already know SHIELD has a record of the heroes secret identity already.

I belive Eddie Brock and Scorpion (or the man previously known as Scorpoin) already know spidy's secreat identity.

People like that serve their government corporations of their own free will, and are paid accordingly; they aren't forced into anything. And they don't have to have to deal with supervillains like Venom and Dr. Doom. The difference between Spider-Man and a police officer is that you can kill a police officer; why go through the trouble of finding his family and his identity when you can just put a bullet in him? But you can't hurt Spider-Man by normal means, the only real way to do it is by hurting those close to him. Superheroes and police officers both risk their lives for their jobs, but in different ways. A secret identity means something completely different for the superhero whose only real weakness is his family and friends.

No one is forcing people to become super heroes either, they are doing it of thier free will as well so I dont know what your argument there is. And they would also get paid if the act is passed.

While they might not have to deal with supervillains, they would have to deal with mob bosses who do have a lot of money and can hire hit men (superpowered ones even) to prevent them from testifing in court, as revenge or just to send out a message to others who might try to do the same. In fact they would be in more danger since they dont have super powers or a connection of super powered friends if the mobs find out their real names and send out super powered hit men after them and thier families, so your argument does not stand.

P.S. Venom has always know Peters secret ID (except for brief periods when he forgot) and Doom's main enemies the FF never had a secret ID.

And a superhero is much more public than a secret agent, of course. The more power you have, the more good you can do, and therefore the more attention you attract. That's the point of the costume in the first place, to attract attention. And the only thing stopping all the "attention" from hurting those close to you is the mask.

There are a lot of heroes out there without a secret ID and they seem to be doing fine, and for those that have a secret ID, I think it would help them if they have a government agency that could help them when they get in trouble with other people finding out their secret ID. Case in point when GG and Scorpion blackmailed Peter into breaking GG out of jail by kidnapping May. Peter did not have anyone to turn to and got in way over his head and if it was not for the Avengers and FF coming to save his life after MJ called Fury both MJ and May could have ended up dead.

The reason that people in the DCU trusts their heroes, other than the writers simply making it so, is that DCU superheroes are incredibly public with their heroics. It's hard to make an argument against the Justice League when you see them stop meteors and alien invasions on a monthly basis.

When the Crisis was going on, costumed heroes began popping out everywhere all over the world to help. They were very visible, and they were obviously risking their own lives to put out fires, help with relief efforts, answer emergency calls, evacuate disaster areas...and for the most part, they were effective and everyone knew it. Direct quote from the Villains United Special: "Never was the line between hero and villain so inescapably clear." Citizens of the DCU would honestly have to be deluding themselves halfway to schizophrenia if they treated their superheroes with fear and suspicion after their showing in the Crisis.

Joe Quesada pushed in a recent interview the idea that it should be difficult for the citizens of the Marvel U to be able to tell the heroes from the villains. While I think that's a somewhat fascinating story idea, I also think that it simply doesn't make much sense. I mean honestly; if there's someone standing in front of you and screamed "I'm a villain! I'm here to hurt you!" and then starts to hurt you, and then there's someone else screaming "I'm a hero! I'm here to protect you!" and then starts to protect you, how daft do you have to be to not be able to tell one from the other?

I dont read too much DC comics but from what I have read the DC heroes have done a lot of stuff that would cause a lot of people to at least object. I mean Batman caused the whole OMAC incident, WW killed someone and it was broadcast throughout the world, there was the time Superman went a bit over the top and started imposing his will on the rest of the world. The people of DC universe are either very forgiving or have a very short memory.

 

[BrianWilly]

It might not be common knowledge but any villan who would be smart enough to get into the new registration information (If it ever gets passed) would have to be very smart (since Tony and other heroes like Reed would probably play a big part in setting up the security system), so it is not very far fatched to suppose that they already know SHIELD has a record of the heroes secret identity already.

Your argument is that since it's going to happen anyway, we should just stop trying to prevent it from happening and, indeed, help to make it easier for something like that to happen?

No one is forcing people to become super heroes either, they are doing it of thier free will as well so I dont know what your argument there is. And they would also get paid if the act is passed.

Volunteering your time and energy for a task is a completely different thing than becoming a government employee. Becoming someone's employee should always, always be something you are choosing freely and of your own will or else it just gets uncomfortably close to indentured servitude.

While they might not have to deal with supervillains, they would have to deal with mob bosses who do have a lot of money and can hire hit men (superpowered ones even) to prevent them from testifing in court, as revenge or just to send out a message to others who might try to do the same. In fact they would be in more danger since they dont have super powers or a connection of super powered friends if the mobs find out their real names and send out super powered hit men after them and thier families, so your argument does not stand.

And who, exactly, are the ones that deal with these superpowered hit men and take down these superpowered assassins? Superheroes do. All the more reason to help make their jobs easier.

The point remains that the families and friends of undercover police officers and field agents are under far, far less danger from supervillains than those of brightly-clad superheroes that appear on TV day after day and make personal enemies of these villains. Hell, part of the service that superheroes grant to the public is that they attract attention away from police officers and field agents. Who's going to be obsessed over a few police officers when She-Hulk is kicking you in the face?

There are a lot of heroes out there without a secret ID and they seem to be doing fine, and for those that have a secret ID, I think it would help them if they have a government agency that could help them when they get in trouble with other people finding out their secret ID.

Instead of forcing superheroes to give up their identities and then have to protect them from the mess you've made, why not just not force them to give up their identities in the first place?

People like the Fantastic Four and Luke Cage choose to operate openly, but the key word is here is "choose." They know the risks and they themselves made that choice, no government agency pointed a warrant at them and forced them to do it.

The Fantastic Four are rich enough and powerful enough and smart enough to be able to protect themselves from ordinary threats to their family, and yet even that's very often not enough. Dr. Doom was able to kidnap their daughter from under their noses and sent their son to Hell. Franklin had to go through therapy to get over that, and Sue goes through constant bouts of regret and guilt that her family is made of public figures. So imagine if you don't have the money and the means of the Fantastic Four. Imagine you have enemies on the caliber of Dr. Doom, and yet you have no way to protect your loved ones. The mask is the only protection they have.

Throughout his career, Luke Cage has had no family and very few friends or lovers that weren't already superpowered, therefore his identity could be public without too many risks. Now that he has a defenseless child in his family, who knows what his position might be?

Case in point when GG and Scorpion blackmailed Peter into breaking GG out of jail by kidnapping May. Peter did not have anyone to turn to and got in way over his head and if it was not for the Avengers and FF coming to save his life after MJ called Fury both MJ and May could have ended up dead.

But that has nothing to do with Peter not having anyone to turn to; like you said, the Avengers and the FF came to the rescue after MJ contacted them. Just because Peter was too stupid to ask for help doesn't mean that the help wasn't there already for him to use.

I dont read too much DC comics but from what I have read the DC heroes have done a lot of stuff that would cause a lot of people to at least object. I mean Batman caused the whole OMAC incident, WW killed someone and it was broadcast throughout the world, there was the time Superman went a bit over the top and started imposing his will on the rest of the world. The people of DC universe are either very forgiving or have a very short memory.

The case of Wonder Woman was a specific incident involving a specific individual; the public in the DCU didn't generalize every single superhero based on a single person's actions because A)most of the superheroes disagreed with her anyway B)a lot of the public actually agreed with her side. Therefore she received the brunt of the backlash, not her peers.

The public has no idea that Batman was behind the OMACs.

I didn't read "For Tomorrow" so I'm not sure what exactly took place there, but I can't imagine that what Superman did automatically cancelled out the years upon years of incredible good that he did. I mean, you're talking about Superman here, after all.

 

[Trask]

Your argument is that since it's going to happen anyway, we should just stop trying to prevent it from happening and, indeed, help to make it easier for something like that to happen?

No, my argument is that if the law gets passed and heroes ID's are kept in a database, it would be very well protected since people like Tony and Reed would probably be invovled in setting up the security. Now if there is someone out there smart and powerful enough to get through those securities then they would also be able to get throught SHIELD security, and since SHIELD already has a record right now of most of the heroes secret ID why has no one yet stolen it? All I am saying is that if it gets passed and the information is stored somewhere I think it would have so much security around it that there would be very few villans that could accoplish it (Only doom comes to mind right now) and most of those villans can probably find out another way if they really wanted to.

Volunteering your time and energy for a task is a completely different thing than becoming a government employee. Becoming someone's employee should always, always be something you are choosing freely and of your own will or else it just gets uncomfortably close to indentured servitude.

That does not change anything, have you heard of volunteer firemen, they volunteer thier spare time to join the fire service, but that does not mean that they are not trained or thier information taken. Someone cant just decide that he wants to be a volunteer fireman and then go out there without training and fight fire on his own. When you decide to dedicate yourself to help to better the life of people it is a fact of life that you do end up making some sacrifices, wheather it is a Doctor that works in a state hospital for terrible hours and less pay that you would get working private hospitals or become a police officer/ fire fighter risking your life and getting payed very little.

And who, exactly, are the ones that deal with these superpowered hit men and take down these superpowered assassins? Superheroes do. All the more reason to help make their jobs easier.

Do you know what the chances are that a hero would turn up to save your life at that specific time. It is more likely that you would get killed and maybe even your family. The only real protection is keeping the informantion safe. If this normal people take this risks what makes the heroes so better that they get special treatment.

The point remains that the families and friends of undercover police officers and field agents are under far, far less danger from supervillains than those of brightly-clad superheroes that appear on TV day after day and make personal enemies of these villains. Hell, part of the service that superheroes grant to the public is that they attract attention away from police officers and field agents. Who's going to be obsessed over a few police officers when She-Hulk is kicking you in the face?

We are not talking about police officers here we are talking about undercover cops and agents. You think spiderman is in more danger from lets say the Kingpin than an undercover cop that has infiltrated his organisation and collected enough information to put him in jail. Do you think people like the Kingpin or the Owl give a crap if the person that is bringing them down is a super hero or an undercover cop?

Instead of forcing superheroes to give up their identities and then have to protect them from the mess you've made, why not just not force them to give up their identities in the first place?

People like the Fantastic Four and Luke Cage choose to operate openly, but the key word is here is "choose." They know the risks and they themselves made that choice, no government agency pointed a warrant at them and forced them to do it.

The Fantastic Four are rich enough and powerful enough and smart enough to be able to protect themselves from ordinary threats to their family, and yet even that's very often not enough. Dr. Doom was able to kidnap their daughter from under their noses and sent their son to Hell. Franklin had to go through therapy to get over that, and Sue goes through constant bouts of regret and guilt that her family is made of public figures. So imagine if you don't have the money and the means of the Fantastic Four. Imagine you have enemies on the caliber of Dr. Doom, and yet you have no way to protect your loved ones. The mask is the only protection they have.

Throughout his career, Luke Cage has had no family and very few friends or lovers that weren't already superpowered, therefore his identity could be public without too many risks. Now that he has a defenseless child in his family, who knows what his position might be?

It is all relative, the FF might have lots of money and high level of technology, but they also deal with much more powerful foes so that does not change anything. It is true that sue might have some regreats sometimes about going public but that is no different than the number of times Peter has regreated ever putting on the costume since it is gets in the way of his life.

Also why does everyone assume the worst? Everyone is under the impression that if you register every supervillan is suddenly going to get access to that information. I think there is more likelyhood that one of the villans that already knows the heroes secret ID goes public than some villan breaking into a highly secure base to steal the info.

But that has nothing to do with Peter not having anyone to turn to; like you said, the Avengers and the FF came to the rescue after MJ contacted them. Just because Peter was too stupid to ask for help doesn't mean that the help wasn't there already for him to use.

Actually he did go to the Avengers looking for Fury's help and they offered to help him find his Aunt but because he was unwilling to share his secreat ID they could not help him and he went and did something stupid (which by the way ended up costing a number of people, including children, their lives due to his carelessness). And MJ did not call the Avengers and FF, she called Fury (a government agent) behind Peter's back and he organised the Avengers and FF. If he had been registered he could have gone to the government department in the registration department and he would have had help from the start and they could have got him in contact with other agencies such as SHIELD and other heroes without disclosing his ID to anyone. It just works out better since no hero is truely alone anymore and when faced with impossible odds they have someone to turn to.

The case of Wonder Woman was a specific incident involving a specific individual; the public in the DCU didn't generalize every single superhero based on a single person's actions because A)most of the superheroes disagreed with her anyway B)a lot of the public actually agreed with her side. Therefore she received the brunt of the backlash, not her peers.

The public has no idea that Batman was behind the OMACs.

I didn't read "For Tomorrow" so I'm not sure what exactly took place there, but I can't imagine that what Superman did automatically cancelled out the years upon years of incredible good that he did. I mean, you're talking about Superman here, after all.

As I said they tend to put thier heroes on a pedastal and easily forgive them thier sins. Maybe it is because they dont have the mutant agenda in DC universe. The fact that in Marvel there are millions of mutants and growing throughout the world (Before the whole House of M rubbish) has removed the sence of wonder and mistique that the people had for the heroes. I suppose it is easier to forgive your super powered heroes when they are few but when there is a growing number of people with powers every day, it does turn into a problem. Even if the general public does not know that Batman was responsible for the OMAC incident, the goverment must know. And how come Lois didnt print that story, after all I though she was a reporter.

 

[Tropico]

No, my argument is that if the law gets passed and heroes ID's are kept in a database, it would be very well protected since people like Tony and Reed would probably be invovled in setting up the security. Now if there is someone out there smart and powerful enough to get through those securities then they would also be able to get throught SHIELD security, and since SHIELD already has a record right now of most of the heroes secret ID why has no one yet stolen it? All I am saying is that if it gets passed and the information is stored somewhere I think it would have so much security around it that there would be very few villans that could accoplish it (Only doom comes to mind right now) and most of those villans can probably find out another way if they really wanted to.

What Tony? The one whose blueprints for Iron Man and other tech has been stolen and he's gone on "Armor Wars" to get them back? Do you know how much more enticing it would be for villains to try to break into ONE place where you can get it ALL?

I don't know if there has been a story yet where the infor has been stolen from SHIELD, but it's just a matter of time. There hadn't been a story yet where Nitro blew up the way he did in a place like he did, but now it happened. Do you really think SHIELD is trustworthy? This SHIELD?

'Cause I don't feel trust towards an agency that mind raped a hero and scoured another's data banks (the Vision) after shutting him off. But that's just me.

That does not change anything, have you heard of volunteer firemen, they volunteer thier spare time to join the fire service, but that does not mean that they are not trained or thier information taken. Someone cant just decide that he wants to be a volunteer fireman and then go out there without training and fight fire on his own. When you decide to dedicate yourself to help to better the life of people it is a fact of life that you do end up making some sacrifices, wheather it is a Doctor that works in a state hospital for terrible hours and less pay that you would get working private hospitals or become a police officer/ fire fighter risking your life and getting payed very little.

Fact: Superhero groups DO train. The New Warriors DID train, it's just a fact that gets overlooked to better move a story along.
Fact: The X-Men train their members and students, it's practically their main purpose. The Avengers train their members (or at least they did before being "New"). The New Warriors had training facilities and also gauged the power level of their members and had a capable leader in Night Thrasher. Using training as an argument is void since it's something that's already done, it's jsut something the writers are trying to "sell" to promote the story and people are falling for it.

We are not talking about police officers here we are talking about undercover cops and agents. You think spiderman is in more danger from lets say the Kingpin than an undercover cop that has infiltrated his organisation and collected enough information to put him in jail. Do you think people like the Kingpin or the Owl give a crap if the person that is bringing them down is a super hero or an undercover cop?

Undercover cops have the advantage of being "udercover", super powered beings are more akin to celebrities. I don't see how an undercover cop and a person who stands out from the rest are the same. We have seen time and time again that "villains" do react strongly when it comes to "super heroes", it's part of their pathology. I've never seen Doc Ock go- "Gee, this is the officer that wrote me up after Spider Man beat me. I think I'll reform the Sinister Six to kill him and his family."

It is all relative, the FF might have lots of money and high level of technology, but they also deal with much more powerful foes so that does not change anything. It is true that sue might have some regreats sometimes about going public but that is no different than the number of times Peter has regreated ever putting on the costume since it is gets in the way of his life.

Also why does everyone assume the worst? Everyone is under the impression that if you register every supervillan is suddenly going to get access to that information. I think there is more likelyhood that one of the villans that already knows the heroes secret ID goes public than some villan breaking into a highly secure base to steal the info.

Have you seen what celebrities go through with the papparazi? Do you think it would be any different with the heroes if they have to become public servants? They would have to behave a certain way to mantain a good face for their government. The FF have the advantage of living in a building where their families are protected, the same can't be said of all the heroes. Or will the government invest millions of dollars to make superhero communities to keep them safe? Doesn't that make them a bigger target?

People are thinking the worst because of things that have already happened in the MU. It doesn't take a villain to break into the data base, all you need is a corrupt agent to get the info. Or someone your blackmailing or threatening. We've seen corrupt people from police officers to agents of SHIELD. And don't get me started on using shapeshifters to get the info. It's overly optimistic of you to think everything will go fine.

 

[The Question]

I think that there are ways to track down and deal with clearly incompetent superheroes without having to resort to vilification of an entire established community; SHIELD was able to find Spider-Man's identity by sweat samples, it's really not as if they couldn't find an errant vigilante if they really needed to.

Maybe. But then, that wouldn't work every time.

You have to take the time to judge which vigilantes have to be registered and which don't because because if you don't, you're punishing people for crimes that they haven't even committed. Innocent until proven guilty, that's a staple of our legal system too. The majority of all rapes and murders in this country are committed by adult white men, but you can't register every adult white man as a potential rapist or murderer. If you start to "register" every single potential crime, you might as well register everyone in the entire world.

I know this isn't a perfect comparison, but they don't wait to decide which gun owners should be registered and which shouldn't. They don't take the time to judge which private detectives and bounty hunters should be registered and which shouldn't. They register all of them as a precautionary messure. I don't see why they would make s special case for super powered vigilante activity.

Incidentally, that's the exact same argument that anti-mutant activists in the Marvel universe uses, that you shouldn't have to judge which mutants might be dangerous and which might not be; you should consider them all dangerous, just to be safe.

'Cept, there's a difference. Not all mutants are going out and playing super hero every night. And most mutants aren't powerful enough to really do any damage at all. A majority of them are simply disfigured or have powers that are so miniscule they barely make a difference.

Understandable, maybe, but logical? It's a very knee-jerk, ends-justify-the-means sort of legislation. Are they really making people safer when they persecute the very superheroes sworn to protect us, the very ones that have traditionally done a good job of it? At the end of the day, what exactly is it trying to protect? The innocent people on the street, or the politicians' sense of power and control?

Probably a little bit of both. But again, most of the super heroes aren't well trained. Spider-Man learned everything as he went along. As did Iron Man and the Fantastic Four. There's a major risk there. And, what they do is barely legal as it is. It is somewhat logical.

 

[KevanG]

Just out of curiousity, how many super-genius supervillains are there in the MU that would hack any gov database and sell the ID of heros just for the fun and profit of it? How many bad guys would take the info just to ruin the heros lives? Kingpin did it to DD a few years back, GG did it to Spidey, and look how Bruce Banner has been hunted because everyone knows he's the Hulk. I know theres going to be arguements about my reasoning there but it does make a valid point, there are enough people in the MU that could access the info through any means possible that it puts every secret ID at risk the second it's stored anywhere.

I understand the reasoning behind the registration act, but like the mutant registration act before it, it just won't work. I mean are you going to toss a guy in jail because he helps people and doesn't want the planet to know he can pick up cars or something like that. If anything the Gov should be setting up resource centers for people who have recently acquired powers, by mutation, accident or on purpose. That way they could help train and guide people with powers and if the mutant/metahuman decided to go public the could be registered by the government. I know there would have to be kinks worked out but it could work if they didn't have a agenda behind it like they always do :P

 

[Trask]

What Tony? The one whose blueprints for Iron Man and other tech has been stolen and he's gone on "Armor Wars" to get them back? Do you know how much more enticing it would be for villains to try to break into ONE place where you can get it ALL?

I don't know if there has been a story yet where the infor has been stolen from SHIELD, but it's just a matter of time. There hadn't been a story yet where Nitro blew up the way he did in a place like he did, but now it happened. Do you really think SHIELD is trustworthy? This SHIELD?

'Cause I don't feel trust towards an agency that mind raped a hero and scoured another's data banks (the Vision) after shutting him off. But that's just me.

I am not saying it is impossible for someone to get to the information, I am just saying it is very unlikely with the combined security of Stark/Reed/SHIELD and any other super heroe that helps set up the security. Lets face it I can think of a number of easier ways to get a heroes secret ID than getting into whatever security system they set up. I mean if GG did not know Spidermans ID do you think he is going to break into this new high security goverment base or just go out and hire a Psychic to steal that info from spiderman's mind for him. I mean there are lots of much more easier ways to find a person secret ID than break into a high level security base. To me the fear of your secret ID being stolen is just not a valid excuse.

As for what SHIELD did to Spiderman, Xeviar has done the same thing to a number of people before, not to mention the other X-Men Psychics. Not to mention Dr Strange and other mystics that have done the same thing, but people seem to forgive them doing that because they are superheroes.

Altho you can argue with the method SHIELD used you can not fault thier reason for doing it. I mean the superheroes expect SHIELD to trust them while they are keeping from them vital informantion like what happened in the House of M.

Fact: Superhero groups DO train. The New Warriors DID train, it's just a fact that gets overlooked to better move a story along.
Fact: The X-Men train their members and students, it's practically their main purpose. The Avengers train their members (or at least they did before being "New"). The New Warriors had training facilities and also gauged the power level of their members and had a capable leader in Night Thrasher. Using training as an argument is void since it's something that's already done, it's jsut something the writers are trying to "sell" to promote the story and people are falling for it.

I am not saying all heroes dont train, but those that train are the rairity. And without a standard to determine what level of training is sufficient before someone goes out to become a superhero you can not really determine who is trained and who isnt.

Groups like the X-Men do get good training because that is one of thier main objectives, while most other heroes get thier training on the field. I mean look at most of the people who join the Avengers. Before they joined the avengers they have had no real training sessions and it is usally Cap that takes the time to give them some training (usually after much groaning and complaining from them about how they dont need any training).

Undercover cops have the advantage of being "udercover", super powered beings are more akin to celebrities. I don't see how an undercover cop and a person who stands out from the rest are the same. We have seen time and time again that "villains" do react strongly when it comes to "super heroes", it's part of their pathology. I've never seen Doc Ock go- "Gee, this is the officer that wrote me up after Spider Man beat me. I think I'll reform the Sinister Six to kill him and his family."

Do you have any idea what happens when an undercover cop finishes his assignment? He then has to testify in court, and I dont think any villan is just going to sit back and let them do that.

And again we are talking about Undercover cops here. Of course Doc Ock is not going to go out of his way to kill an oggicer who "wrote him up", but you can be damn sure that the Kingpin would do anything in his power to find and kill any undercover cop who has infiltrated his organisation.

Have you seen what celebrities go through with the papparazi? Do you think it would be any different with the heroes if they have to become public servants? They would have to behave a certain way to mantain a good face for their government. The FF have the advantage of living in a building where their families are protected, the same can't be said of all the heroes. Or will the government invest millions of dollars to make superhero communities to keep them safe? Doesn't that make them a bigger target?

Ok, I just dont get your argument here. Since the government is not going to make thier ID public knowledge how is it going to change how the public/press views them for the worst? It is not as if just because you work for the goverment they suddly post your adress and secret ID to newspapers and papparazi. I might have mistaken what you meant to say but I dont understand your argument here.

People are thinking the worst because of things that have already happened in the MU. It doesn't take a villain to break into the data base, all you need is a corrupt agent to get the info. Or someone your blackmailing or threatening. We've seen corrupt people from police officers to agents of SHIELD. And don't get me started on using shapeshifters to get the info. It's overly optimistic of you to think everything will go fine.

As I have said before the security system that would be set up would include input from such people as Reed/Stark and maybe even Strange (to cover mystical break-ins) and some Mutant security experts so I think that would cover the shapeshifters/teleporters.

I am also assuming that those that work in the department would be vetted by both SHIELD and other organisations. Also not everyone that works there would have access to the information, just like SHIELD only those near the top or with special clearance can access the information.

And another thing why do people assume that normal people are more corruptable than superheroes? I mean people dont think twice about giving away thier secret ID to other Superheroes most of the time.

Last but not least, I dont think they are going to give out the location of the new base where the information is stored or the names of the people who work there.

 

[deemar325]

I'm for registration.

 

[BrianWilly]

Very good points, Tropico.

Maybe. But then, that wouldn't work every time.

How many times exactly does it need to work? Like I said, these accidents are the rarities and not the norm. I don't see SHIELD being overwhelmed by the prospect finding the occasional errant hero who makes a mess of things.

I know this isn't a perfect comparison, but they don't wait to decide which gun owners should be registered and which shouldn't. They don't take the time to judge which private detectives and bounty hunters should be registered and which shouldn't. They register all of them as a precautionary messure. I don't see why they would make s special case for super powered vigilante activity.

The fact that it isn't a perfect comparison makes all the difference. A gun owner is not a superhero. A private detective and a bounty hunter are not superheroes. When you go out and buy a gun, you are not putting your families' lives in danger from mad scientists. When you become a private detective, you are not putting your face on the front pages and headlines of the 6:00 news attracting every thug out to make a name for himself; the point of being a private dick or a bounty hunter, after all, is to be keep attention away from yourself and remain hidden. The lifestyle and role of the costumed superhero is something completely different.

'Cept, there's a difference. Not all mutants are going out and playing super hero every night. And most mutants aren't powerful enough to really do any damage at all. A majority of them are simply disfigured or have powers that are so miniscule they barely make a difference.

Those differences merely superficial; at the end of the day, you're taking the actions of a few and using them as a standard for the majority. Saying that all heroes are dangerous is just as irrational as saying that all mutants are dangerous. You accuse them of crimes that they didn't commit based merely on the notion that they might commit them. That's not how our system is supposed to work.

Probably a little bit of both. But again, most of the super heroes aren't well trained. Spider-Man learned everything as he went along. As did Iron Man and the Fantastic Four. There's a major risk there. And, what they do is barely legal as it is. It is somewhat logical.

What is the major risk? Superheroes save the world over and over again. And individual hero saves dozens of people every day. We know that superheroes are effective and do their jobs well. The proponents of this act keep pushing the idea that the New Warriors incident was something that's happened and will happen all over the place all the time every time, and that's a pretty massive assumption to be making considering that all prior evidence suggests otherwise. It's a over-exaggeration of the facts at best and a fear-based political tactic at worst.

Again I ask, are they really making people safer when they persecute the very superheroes sworn to protect us, the very ones that have traditionally done a good job of it?

 

[The Question]

How many times exactly does it need to work? Like I said, these accidents are the rarities and not the norm. I don't see SHIELD being overwhelmed by the prospect finding the occasional errant hero who makes a mess of things.

Because they could all easily screw up and result in major injuries and property damage. In fact, many of them have at least once.

The fact that it isn't a perfect comparison makes all the difference. A gun owner is not a superhero.

Very true.

A private detective and a bounty hunter are not superheroes.

Actually, that's a much better comparison.

When you go out and buy a gun, you are not putting your families' lives in danger from mad scientists. When you become a private detective, you are not putting your face on the front pages and headlines of the 6:00 news attracting every thug out to make a name for himself;

Not all super heros do that either.

the point of being a private dick or a bounty hunter, after all, is to be keep attention away from yourself and remain hidden.

When on the job, yes. But that is the case with many heroes aswell. And it's not like no one knows who they are.

The lifestyle and role of the costumed superhero is something completely different.

No, they're not. Private Detectives and Bounty Hunters deal with criminals on a regular basis. They often times put their lives in danger. And they still have to be registered to insure that they're handling it properly. There is no such assurance when it comes to super heroes. They just put on costumes and beat up muggers.

Those differences merely superficial; at the end of the day, you're taking the actions of a few and using them as a standard for the majority. Saying that all heroes are dangerous is just as irrational as saying that all mutants are dangerous.

No, it's not. All heroes are dangerous, or at least have the potential to be dangerous. They're either highly skilled hand to hand combatants or rather powerful superhumans. And very few of them are properly trained in matters of the legal system or police procedure. If they do screw up and cause massive injuries and property damage, the police have no way of holding them accountable if they go into hiding.

You accuse them of crimes that they didn't commit based merely on the notion that they might commit them. That's not how our system is supposed to work.

And yet that is how our system works. You can't just become a bounty hunter. You have to be properly trained and get registered. Why? Because if you're not, then you could screw it up. Now, odds are that many bounty hunters will have some kind of training, so weather they're registered or not shouldn't matter, right? But, we still register all of them. Instead of waiting for one of them to screw up and going after them then, we do our best to make sure none of them screw up. Same thing with vigilante activity. It is highly discouraged and only barely legal. The government would much prefer it if vigilantes simply became police officers. Now, the reason they haven't done much about it is because vigilante acitivity isn't that common. But, were it running rampant (As it does in the MU), odds are the government would pass legislation similar to the SHRA.

What is the major risk? Superheroes save the world over and over again. And individual hero saves dozens of people every day. We know that superheroes are effective and do their jobs well.

That's lumping them all together just as much as saying they're all dangerous is. Not all super heroes are effective. It's just that assuming that they're all dangerous is much safer than assuming that they're all effective.

The proponents of this act keep pushing the idea that the New Warriors incident was something that's happened and will happen all over the place all the time every time, and that's a pretty massive assumption to be making considering that all prior evidence suggests otherwise. It's a over-exaggeration of the facts at best and a fear-based political tactic at worst.

No, it's not. It's saying that it can happen and probably will happen again. And the government's trying to insure that it doesn't happen again by having the heroes register. Just as they have private detectives and bounty huinters register so they can be held accountable if they take part of police matters and screw them up.

Again I ask, are they really making people safer when they persecute the very superheroes sworn to protect us, the very ones that have traditionally done a good job of it?

It is making people safer by making sure they actually know what they're doing. Not all super heroes are perfect or experts. Most had no training prior to donning the tights. And their actions have re****ed in property damage and injuries in the past, albiet not on the scale of the New Warriors incident.

 

[BrianWilly]

Because they could all easily screw up and result in major injuries and property damage. In fact, many of them have at least once.

On what are you basing this claim? How often and how exactly do the Avengers "easily screw up"? How does Spider-Man? Or Daredevil? Of course mistakes are going to happen as a fact of the job they are in, but to try to claim that it's some sort of regular, oft-occuring type incident in the Marvel universe is just inaccurate.

Not all super heros do that either.

The majority does.

When on the job, yes. But that is the case with many heroes aswell. And it's not like no one knows who they are.

Off the top of your head, name one private detective in your city.

No, they're not. Private Detectives and Bounty Hunters deal with criminals on a regular basis. They often times put their lives in danger. And they still have to be registered to insure that they're handling it properly. There is no such assurance when it comes to super heroes. They just put on costumes and beat up muggers.

Uh...

When you go out and buy a gun, you are not putting your families' lives in danger from mad scientists. When you become a private detective, you are not putting your face on the front pages and headlines of the 6:00 news attracting every thug out to make a name for himself;

^That is the difference of lifestyle that I'm talking about.

No, it's not. All heroes are dangerous, or at least have the potential to be dangerous. They're either highly skilled hand to hand combatants or rather powerful superhumans. And very few of them are properly trained in matters of the legal system or police procedure. If they do screw up and cause massive injuries and property damage, the police have no way of holding them accountable if they go into hiding.

Ah...

I think that there are ways to track down and deal with clearly incompetent superheroes without having to resort to vilification of an entire established community; SHIELD was able to find Spider-Man's identity by sweat samples, it's really not as if they couldn't find an errant vigilante if they really needed to.

I don't really buy this argument that the government has no way to hold the few heroes that step out of line reprehensible for their activities; in a world where SHIELD agents has psychics constantly scanning their targets, how is it that they can be dumbfounded by the simple prospect of tracking someone down and arresting them?

And yet that is how our system works. You can't just become a bounty hunter. You have to be properly trained and get registered. Why? Because if you're not, then you could screw it up. Now, odds are that many bounty hunters will have some kind of training, so weather they're registered or not shouldn't matter, right? But, we still register all of them. Instead of waiting for one of them to screw up and going after them then, we do our best to make sure none of them screw up. Same thing with vigilante activity. It is highly discouraged and only barely legal. The government would much prefer it if vigilantes simply became police officers. Now, the reason they haven't done much about it is because vigilante acitivity isn't that common. But, were it running rampant (As it does in the MU), odds are the government would pass legislation similar to the SHRA.

Why do we keep using this bounty hunter comparison when we've already established that they are completely different sorts of occupations?

So what's your answer to the fact that we would be overtly endangering the friends and family of these heroes who have fought and died for the world? Do they just not get taken into consideration? They risk their lives for us every day, and our reaction is to betray them by constantly make their lives harder and endangering their family?

And again, costumed heroes have always been a part of the Marvel universe. Their reaction to the idea of vigilantes should be quite different from ours.

That's lumping them all together just as much as saying they're all dangerous is. Not all super heroes are effective. It's just that assuming that they're all dangerous is much safer than assuming that they're all effective.

The overwhelming majority is effective. You can't take the evidence provided by the minority and use it as the definitive guideline.

No, it's not. It's saying that it can happen and probably will happen again. And the government's trying to insure that it doesn't happen again by having the heroes register. Just as they have private detectives and bounty huinters register so they can be held accountable if they take part of police matters and screw them up.

Then they should find a better method, one that doesn't vilify an entire group of people who freely risks their lives on a daily basis for us based on the actions of a few.

A private detective and a bounty hunter are not superheroes.

It is making people safer by making sure they actually know what they're doing. Not all super heroes are perfect or experts. Most had no training prior to donning the tights. And their actions have re****ed in property damage and injuries in the past, albiet not on the scale of the New Warriors incident.

If the Green Goblin throws a bomb at a building and Spider-Man fails to be able to catch it, then the Green Goblin is the one responsible for that damage and not Spider-Man. Like I said, the Marvel universe is (once again) trying to blur the lines between their heroes and their villains, and yet that line has always been abundantly clear for all to see.

 

[The Question]

On what are you basing this claim? How often and how exactly do the Avengers "easily screw up"? How does Spider-Man? Or Daredevil? Of course mistakes are going to happen as a fact of the job they are in, but to try to claim that it's some sort of regular, oft-occuring type incident in the Marvel universe is just inaccurate.

How often has a super heroe's intereference resulted in property damage? More than a few. Hell, heroes are tossing around cars and smashing people through walls all the time.

Off the top of your head, name one private detective in your city.

I don't live in a city.

Uh...

^That is the difference of lifestyle that I'm talking about.

That doesn't mean it's an unapt analogy. The reason for registration is the same. And private detectives can still easily become targets of retribution from criminals.

Ah...
I don't really buy this argument that the government has no way to hold the few heroes that step out of line reprehensible for their activities; in a world where SHIELD agents has psychics constantly scanning their targets, how is it that they can be dumbfounded by the simple prospect of tracking someone down and arresting them?

Then how, may I ask, are there any criminals left uncaught? If S.H.E.I.L.D. can track down anyone they want whenever they want, why is it that the likes of The Red Skull are still uncaught?

Why do we keep using this bounty hunter comparison when we've already established that they are completely different sorts of occupations?

Because the similarities in regards to the registration are quite strong.

So what's your answer to the fact that we would be overtly endangering the friends and family of these heroes who have fought and died for the world? Do they just not get taken into consideration? They risk their lives for us every day, and our reaction is to betray them by constantly make their lives harder and endangering their family?

Why does them being registered mean that who they are and where they live would be posted on the six o'clock news? They don't publically post the names of police officers, military personel, private detectives, or bounty hunters. If the heroes want to retain anonimity, I'm sure the feds could keep their files secret.

And again, costumed heroes have always been a part of the Marvel universe. Their reaction to the idea of vigilantes should be quite different from ours.

Why? A higher number of vigilantes doesn't mean the government would be happy with them. Hell, it would probably make them dislike them even more.

The overwhelming majority is effective.

But they're not all always going to be effective.

You can't take the evidence provided by the minority and use it as the definitive guideline.

of course. But the fact that many have been effective doesn't mean all future heroes will be. And to allow the effectrive ones to go unregistered and simply wait for the ones who screw up to screw up and be registered is much more dangerous than registering them all. Like I've said, they don't wait for a PI to screw up a police investigation to have him registered.

Then they should find a better method, one that doesn't vilify an entire group of people who freely risks their lives on a daily basis for us based on the actions of a few.

It's not villifying them. It's registering them. Making sure they know what they're doing.

A private detective and a bounty hunter are not superheroes.

And yet, for the sake of the registration arguement, they are similar enough to be used in explenation.

If the Green Goblin throws a bomb at a building and Spider-Man fails to be able to catch it, then the Green Goblin is the one responsible for that damage and not Spider-Man.

Of course not. But if Spider-Man throws a car at the Green Goblin, the owner of said car has no way of billing him for the damages. If he smashes someone through a wall, he can't be held acountable for the damages that insue. Were he registered, he could be billed for the damages and out under investigation. Just as a police officer would be if he blew up someone's car on the job.

Like I said, the Marvel universe is (once again) trying to blur the lines between their heroes and their villains, and yet that line has always been abundantly clear for all to see.

Morality has nothingb to do with the arguement.

 

[Tropico]

You know, I wouldn't like a Marvel Universe with registered heroes. It's one thing ot add a little realism to comics, but I don't see the fun of adding a lot to it. I would like to see super-heroes not super-agents or super-cops. What's fun in that? Tou want to go for realism? Okay, I'll repeat some of the stuff I posted in another thread a few weeks back...

Are we to believe that the government will suddenly start paying this influx of registered Marvels on top of what they spend for other law enforcement agencies, army, etc.? How "realistic" is it to think that if these Marvels become public servants funds won't be cut from other areas and given to them? How will normal beings feel about this when they start losing their jobs, when they realize that they're no competition for the Marvels? Do you know how much the face of the MU would change when the government says that New York has far too many Marvels and not enough budget to support them? How will it feel to be told that you have to move or desist in your "vigilante" activites?

This has all the makings of a super-arms race. The US calls for a mandatory registration, other countries will follow suit but realize that there are other benefits to it. How about offering more money and better incentives to Marvels so they'll come to your country? Note that I'm NOT making the distinction of hero/villain. We've already seen how different governments utilize Marvels (good AND bad) in different ways. How long before Marvels replace nuclear/atomic weapons and become the new "measuring stick"?

I'm not interested in stories where Spider Man has to shout "Stop in the name of the law" and then fire off warning webbing before apprehending a bad guy. It would be truly disconcerting to read that Peter is broke once again because they can't find the Rhino and since they can't bill the Rhino then they obviously have to bill someone and Uncle Sam ain't gonna foot the bill so you gotta bill the OTHER person involved in the fight who is adequately registered, right? What's fun about the Red Skull suing Capt. America for using excessive force and Cap getting a reprimand because the Skull was right? What's he gonna do, use a NERF throwing shield? How about Reed Richards getting fined for using his powers during his required vacation time, that'd be cool right?

Don't you think there would be a rash of people with weak powers going to training and doing just enough to pass and actually getting a job? The League of Mediocre Gentlemen sounds like a cool title to me! I'd buy all 10 variant covers!! How about bad guys that go just to get the training, to find out how it works, to get good at using their powers and then turning to a life of crime. Or better yet, to still act as do-gooders but actually be corrupt! Turncoat Society of America! AWESOME!!!! How long before the heroe's passion turns into "it's just a job"? How long before complacency and carlesness? By the way, arrogance breeds as much possibility for error as "inexperience". Yup, the MU would be so much better with the registration act and mimicking what our world could be like.

 

[Trask]

You know, I wouldn't like a Marvel Universe with registered heroes. It's one thing ot add a little realism to comics, but I don't see the fun of adding a lot to it. I would like to see super-heroes not super-agents or super-cops. What's fun in that? Tou want to go for realism? Okay, I'll repeat some of the stuff I posted in another thread a few weeks back...

Super-agents or Super-cops are not a new idea, there are quite a few of them in both Marvel and DC universe, but I understand what you mean.

Are we to believe that the government will suddenly start paying this influx of registered Marvels on top of what they spend for other law enforcement agencies, army, etc.? How "realistic" is it to think that if these Marvels become public servants funds won't be cut from other areas and given to them? How will normal beings feel about this when they start losing their jobs, when they realize that they're no competition for the Marvels? Do you know how much the face of the MU would change when the government says that New York has far too many Marvels and not enough budget to support them? How will it feel to be told that you have to move or desist in your "vigilante" activites?

For someone who does not like a lot of realism in his comic you seem to be putting a lot of it in your argument. But I suppose that some heroes like the Avengers and FF would be considered national and not state heroes so altho there are lots of heroes based in New York some of them work globaly so they would not be paid under the states funding. As for where the money comes from I dont think that would be a major problem seeing as how they dont seem to have any problem funding all those secret projects and repairs for all the damage caused by super Villan/heroes fight.

This has all the makings of a super-arms race. The US calls for a mandatory registration, other countries will follow suit but realize that there are other benefits to it. How about offering more money and better incentives to Marvels so they'll come to your country? Note that I'm NOT making the distinction of hero/villain. We've already seen how different governments utilize Marvels (good AND bad) in different ways. How long before Marvels replace nuclear/atomic weapons and become the new "measuring stick"?

The super-arms race started a long time ago in Marvel with Cap America. There have been a lot of of Super powered beings (mainly they turn into villans for some reason) that are a result of the super-arms race from other countries already such as china and russia.

I'm not interested in stories where Spider Man has to shout "Stop in the name of the law" and then fire off warning webbing before apprehending a bad guy. It would be truly disconcerting to read that Peter is broke once again because they can't find the Rhino and since they can't bill the Rhino then they obviously have to bill someone and Uncle Sam ain't gonna foot the bill so you gotta bill the OTHER person involved in the fight who is adequately registered, right? What's fun about the Red Skull suing Capt. America for using excessive force and Cap getting a reprimand because the Skull was right? What's he gonna do, use a NERF throwing shield? How about Reed Richards getting fined for using his powers during his required vacation time, that'd be cool right?

You are over exaguaratinig here. Cap has worked for SHIELD and he has never gotten sued for anything since it would be the agency that would be responsible not the individual (unless he has been very very careless, then he would face some kind of disceplinary action). Also what is stopping Red Skull from suing Cap right now? Cap does not have a secret ID and there is nothing in the law that says that superheroes cant be sued so what would the registration act change here?

Why would Reed get fined for using his powers during a vacation? There is no law against that. What you think every mutant is going to get fined for using thier powers even if they are not vigilanties? I think Sue would just be pleased that Reed is forced to take a vacation and spend some time with his family.

Don't you think there would be a rash of people with weak powers going to training and doing just enough to pass and actually getting a job? The League of Mediocre Gentlemen sounds like a cool title to me! I'd buy all 10 variant covers!! How about bad guys that go just to get the training, to find out how it works, to get good at using their powers and then turning to a life of crime. Or better yet, to still act as do-gooders but actually be corrupt! Turncoat Society of America! AWESOME!!!! How long before the heroe's passion turns into "it's just a job"? How long before complacency and carlesness? By the way, arrogance breeds as much possibility for error as "inexperience". Yup, the MU would be so much better with the registration act and mimicking what our world could be like.

It is not always about power. I mean look at the Wasp, she had such a weak power but she was a member of the Avengers and has been instrumental in some fights so I dont belive it is the power that matters but the person behind the power. I think the people that dont make the cut will do the same thing that people who dont make it into the police force will do. Either give up and do another job or go work for a private company as a guard, I am sure there are a lot of companies out there who would want super-powered security. Some might turn to crime but seeing as how they could not pass the test they will not be too much trouble.

I dont see how you can assume that working for the government/state will cause people to turn corrupt. I mean either they are corrupt and will be so no matter what happens (hence Suppervillans) or they have a strong enough moral backbone to be good. As for the heroes lossing thier passion or convictions, again that has nothing to do with working for the government, case in point look at Hawkeye.

What got me into Marvel the first time was the whole Anti-Mutant sentiment that was going around in that universe, because it seemed like something that would happen in this world if mutants started poping up. So I am enjoying this idea and I belive it was long overdue.