I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[DeadlyWest]

Another idea a friend of mine floated to me yesterday that I now can't stop thinking about: Batman in the labyrinth, or someplace else after he's expended a ton of energy, having feverish hallucinations/nightmares of Barry's Joker, very much like the Koba scenes in War and to an extent, Arkham Knight.

Good God that's ****ing brilliant

 

[Johnny Frost]

Could the deeper corruption Reeves is referring to be the GCPD? I remember when Reeves talked about the GCPD series and how it would explore the fact that the police would be the worst gang in Gotham.

IIRC Dark Victory kind of deals with this a bit, many of Hangman's targets were corrupt cops.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Idk, because the first film already sort of dealt with that. Kenzie is likely in Blackgate. Gordon has probably weeded out the ones on Falcone’s payroll. Unless Bock really is shady, I’m not sure. Also, I think the GCPD show was set to take place in Batman’s first year.

One of the only things that hasn’t been tackled are the rich people of Gotham. Now that Bruce is out in the public eye, he’s probably going to be around those groups more and become more aware of what Selena was talking to him about.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I’d like it to delve into the police more to make up for that one really really insufferably bad not all cops scene in The Batman. Also just because that’s a super interesting topic, not one you’re ever gonna be able to tackle in a terribly realistic way in a Batman movie but worth touching on.

 

[C Prometheus]

Idk, because the first film already sort of dealt with that. Kenzie is likely in Blackgate. Gordon has probably weeded out the ones on Falcone’s payroll. Unless Bock really is shady, I’m not sure. Also, I think the GCPD show was set to take place in Batman’s first year.

One of the only things that hasn’t been tackled are the rich people of Gotham. Now that Bruce is out in the public eye, he’s probably going to be around those groups more and become more aware of what Selena was talking to him about.

Exactly.

Could the deeper corruption Reeves is referring to be the GCPD? I remember when Reeves talked about the GCPD series and how it would explore the fact that the police would be the worst gang in Gotham.

IIRC Dark Victory kind of deals with this a bit, many of Hangman's targets were corrupt cops.

I doubt it. GCPD being corrupt is pretty equal to the idea of water being wet in Gotham City. "Deeper corruption" IMO implies a conspiracy that's even further down the rabbit hole/grander in scope than what Bruce found out in Part 1 about Falcone, the mob and the figure heads of Gotham's political scene.

With that in mind, that just leaves the Illuminati-type sources of corruption like the Black Glove or the Court of Owls... and if it's between the two, I don't see very many people picking Black Glove over the Court of Owls.

I’d like it to delve into the police more to make up for that one really really insufferably bad not all cops scene in The Batman. Also just because that’s a super interesting topic, not one you’re ever gonna be able to tackle in a terribly realistic way in a Batman movie but worth touching on.

I really hope Reeves gets to make his GCPD show one day, because I have a feeling we won't get to really see that stuff otherwise.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Exactly.



I doubt it. GCPD being corrupt is pretty equal to the idea of water being wet in Gotham City. "Deeper corruption" IMO implies a conspiracy that's even further down the rabbit hole/grander in scope than what Bruce found out in Part 1 about Falcone, the mob and the figure heads of Gotham's political scene.

With that in mind, that just leaves the Illuminati-type sources of corruption like the Black Glove or the Court of Owls... and if it's between the two, I don't see very many people picking Black Glove over the Court of Owls.



I really hope Reeves gets to make his GCPD show one day, because I have a feeling we won't get to really see that stuff otherwise.

It's really sad to me that the GCPD show didn't happen because it lacked marquee characters - that being the studio line anyway, it kinda sounds to me there were broader BTS issues especially since it sure sounds like Batman and Gordon would have shown up in it - it feels like a piece of the story we'll just never get to see.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I do like The Court Of Owls because it feels like something we haven't seen in a Batman movie yet. We've seen Batman vs. The Mob and Batman vs. The Police in the Nolan movies, so that just feels like a retread.

 

[C Prometheus]

It's really sad to me that the GCPD show didn't happen because it lacked marquee characters - that being the studio line anyway, it kinda sounds to me there were broader BTS issues especially since it sure sounds like Batman and Gordon would have shown up in it - it feels like a piece of the story we'll just never get to see.

Honestly the lack of marquee characters is something I can totally believe being real, especially if the presence of Batman and Gordon in it was very minor and if Reeves didn't want to budge from doing the show that way.

I do like The Court Of Owls because it feels like something we haven't seen in a Batman movie yet. We've seen Batman vs. The Mob and Batman vs. The Police in the Nolan movies, so that just feels like a retread.

I do have to agree with that. I still worry a little about the Court running the risk of being a bit repetitive thematically or undermining the plot of the last film, but after re-reading the original Snyder-Capullo story and thinking more on it, I do think it'd make for a really killer film and do something fresh with both live action Batman films and the CBM genre as a whole. There's a lot more horror and suspense that comes with the Court of Owls than I think most audiences are used to with superhero films.

Moreover the Court of Owls being what they are offer the chance for Reeves to do a film that side-steps from the typical common complaints among audiences and casual fans about Bruce's wealth and how he's sometimes perceived as only ever fighting impoverished or mentally troubled villains. By flipping the narrative around and having Bruce face off with the wealthiest and most affluent socialites in Gotham City, the Court offer a means of feeling relevant to audiences today, I think.

 

[Babillygunn]

Don’t hate on me for this, but Court of Owls can be a great way to introduce Dick Grayson, given his direct relationship to that group.

I also love Court of Owls because Batman never truly defeats them.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I'm going to deviate from a lot of Batman fans on this, but I don't think the Court of Owls is the most enticing story for this Batman, so far.

• The Batman was already about uncovering that the systems in place (police, courts, etc.) are all corrupt and working in tandem. Having The Batman: Part II or even Part III cover the Court of Owls would feel way too much like a repeat. "You think Gotham was corrupt in the first film? Well, just wait - Gotham's gonna corruption even harder in the sequel!" There's not really any element of surprise for the audience at that point, and the characters have already been confronted with the fact that Gotham is rotten to the core.
• The Court of Owls works best as a story for a more seasoned, many years into his career Batman. Why? Having a seasoned, kick-ass Batman who's been at the top of his game for quite awhile suddenly learn that he's not noticed a secret society of corrupt, evil Gothamites operating under his nose is a huge deal and a blow to his worth as a detective and a guardian of Gotham. Having it occur to a new Batman just doesn't hit the same - it'd be like remaking Logan (2017) with a younger Wolverine.

Having the Court of Owls occur to a 2-year Batman undercuts the significant emotional/mental ramifications for Bruce that is an essential aspect of the story's depth, by a huge margin.

I think there are far more themes worth exploring, honestly. If Reeves wants to do Court of Owls in a story set much later in this Batman's story, when he's been around awhile, thinks he has seen it all, etc., I'd be all for it.

But a Year 2 Batman? It just doesn't hit quite the same and using it so early takes away a huge reason why the story rocks, from a character perspective.

 

[solidsnake86]

It's really sad to me that the GCPD show didn't happen because it lacked marquee characters - that being the studio line anyway, it kinda sounds to me there were broader BTS issues especially since it sure sounds like Batman and Gordon would have shown up in it - it feels like a piece of the story we'll just never get to see.

If it does never come to fruition, I would actually like to see it tackled by Reeves in comic book format. I thought they did an excellent job with riddler year one, so at least telling the story there wouldn't require the actors so you can tell the story how you want.

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

 

[BatLobster]

I'm going to deviate from a lot of Batman fans on this, but I don't think the Court of Owls is the most enticing story for this Batman, so far.

• The Batman was already about uncovering that the systems in place (police, courts, etc.) are all corrupt and working in tandem. Having The Batman: Part II or even Part III cover the Court of Owls would feel way too much like a repeat. "You think Gotham was corrupt in the first film? Well, just wait - Gotham's gonna corruption even harder in the sequel!" There's not really any element of surprise for the audience at that point, and the characters have already been confronted with the fact that Gotham is rotten to the core.
• The Court of Owls works best as a story for a more seasoned, many years into his career Batman. Why? Having a seasoned, kick-ass Batman who's been at the top of his game for quite awhile suddenly learn that he's not noticed a secret society of corrupt, evil Gothamites operating under his nose is a huge deal and a blow to his worth as a detective and a guardian of Gotham. Having it occur to a new Batman just doesn't hit the same - it'd be like remaking Logan (2017) with a younger Wolverine.

Having the Court of Owls occur to a 2-year Batman undercuts the significant emotional/mental ramifications for Bruce that is an essential aspect of the story's depth, by a huge margin.

I think there are far more themes worth exploring, honestly. If Reeves wants to do Court of Owls in a story set much later in this Batman's story, when he's been around awhile, thinks he has seen it all, etc., I'd be all for it.

But a Year 2 Batman? It just doesn't hit quite the same and using it so early takes away a huge reason why the story rocks, from a character perspective.

I think you raise fair points. But on the other hand, if there's nothing bigger to uncover in subsequent films then it kind of undermines the idea of this being the detective-driven take on the series you know? I'm not sure it would be the most interesting trajectory to start with the revelation of the mother of all corruption conspiracies for Gotham, and then from there it's more case of the week mixed with Penguin being the kingpin of Gotham and Joker plotting something bigger in the background. I think those elements will all be there, but I have to imagine it's going to be driving towards more revelations that challenge Batman's understanding of Gotham and what his mission has to be about.

I do hear the idea of it having more impact on a more seasoned Batman, but at the same time when it comes to the movies I always feel like you have to allow for some time compression, especially because typically you only get a few films for each take on the franchise and you want to make sure the most dramatic and eventful things happen in them. I'll say this-- I'd definitely be more interested in an exploration of the Court through the eyes of a Year 2 or Year 3 Reeves Batman than I would a Year 20 Zack Snyder Batman.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I'm going to deviate from a lot of Batman fans on this, but I don't think the Court of Owls is the most enticing story for this Batman, so far.

• The Batman was already about uncovering that the systems in place (police, courts, etc.) are all corrupt and working in tandem. Having The Batman: Part II or even Part III cover the Court of Owls would feel way too much like a repeat. "You think Gotham was corrupt in the first film? Well, just wait - Gotham's gonna corruption even harder in the sequel!" There's not really any element of surprise for the audience at that point, and the characters have already been confronted with the fact that Gotham is rotten to the core.
• The Court of Owls works best as a story for a more seasoned, many years into his career Batman. Why? Having a seasoned, kick-ass Batman who's been at the top of his game for quite awhile suddenly learn that he's not noticed a secret society of corrupt, evil Gothamites operating under his nose is a huge deal and a blow to his worth as a detective and a guardian of Gotham. Having it occur to a new Batman just doesn't hit the same - it'd be like remaking Logan (2017) with a younger Wolverine.

Having the Court of Owls occur to a 2-year Batman undercuts the significant emotional/mental ramifications for Bruce that is an essential aspect of the story's depth, by a huge margin.

I think there are far more themes worth exploring, honestly. If Reeves wants to do Court of Owls in a story set much later in this Batman's story, when he's been around awhile, thinks he has seen it all, etc., I'd be all for it.

But a Year 2 Batman? It just doesn't hit quite the same and using it so early takes away a huge reason why the story rocks, from a character perspective.

Tbh, upon thinking about it a bit

I agree.

Court of Owls, I personally think, would be perfect for a trilogy ender. I've never been very ecstatic about the idea of the Court as the main villains for Part II and I think you've nailed why.

I think the way you maintain the elements of corruption investigation that Reeves mentioned without retreading on Part I is to tie the overall story and the character transformation to something else. As I keep mentioning, Mr Freeze is probably the most perfect villain for Part II you can ask for. This Batman has grown to realize he has to embody hope for innocents. Freeze expands on that and allows him to learn that he can do the same for people who are not and how that can improve Gotham further. All you have to do is find some way to tie Freeze's story to the overarcing story of Gotham's corruption in the Reevesverse which I honestly don't think is all that hard. Hell, you can literally have GothCorp be run by the Court as a tease and to give reason for Batman to investigate them in a third movie.

 

[C Prometheus]

I'm going to deviate from a lot of Batman fans on this, but I don't think the Court of Owls is the most enticing story for this Batman, so far.

• The Batman was already about uncovering that the systems in place (police, courts, etc.) are all corrupt and working in tandem. Having The Batman: Part II or even Part III cover the Court of Owls would feel way too much like a repeat. "You think Gotham was corrupt in the first film? Well, just wait - Gotham's gonna corruption even harder in the sequel!" There's not really any element of surprise for the audience at that point, and the characters have already been confronted with the fact that Gotham is rotten to the core.
• The Court of Owls works best as a story for a more seasoned, many years into his career Batman. Why? Having a seasoned, kick-ass Batman who's been at the top of his game for quite awhile suddenly learn that he's not noticed a secret society of corrupt, evil Gothamites operating under his nose is a huge deal and a blow to his worth as a detective and a guardian of Gotham. Having it occur to a new Batman just doesn't hit the same - it'd be like remaking Logan (2017) with a younger Wolverine.

Having the Court of Owls occur to a 2-year Batman undercuts the significant emotional/mental ramifications for Bruce that is an essential aspect of the story's depth, by a huge margin.

I think there are far more themes worth exploring, honestly. If Reeves wants to do Court of Owls in a story set much later in this Batman's story, when he's been around awhile, thinks he has seen it all, etc., I'd be all for it.

But a Year 2 Batman? It just doesn't hit quite the same and using it so early takes away a huge reason why the story rocks, from a character perspective.

While I get this argument, I do think it's a bit funny to hear that, considering the original Court of Owls story stars a younger Batman who's only five years into his career, non-sensical as that angle obviously was.

Moreover, if Batman is still only in Year 2 or 3 in Part 2 and does face off with the Court of Owls, I would suspect that Reeves has reasons and ideas in place for how to utilize the Court in ways that open the door for other characters and potential plot points for a younger Bruce, such as potentially introducing Dick Grayson and tackling his origin on the screen in a fresh way.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The Court Of Owls story was written during the New 52 era, when Batman's continuity was confusing as hell. Batman was only around for five years, but was able to have a teenage son in Damian Wayne and two other different Robin's after Dick Grayson. Gordon is commissioner, but still has his brown hair and it hasn't gone grey yet.

I don't think it matters all that much that Batman isn't experienced. If anything, that makes it more plausible that he doesn't know the existence of The Court Of Owls or hasn't ran into them yet.

The corruption in The Batman wasn't the same as the Court (the mob and crooked cops). The whole point would be an escalation of those themes, and taking them to the next level. Which is what you should do with a sequel.

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

Maybe we will get more info on The Batman II and finally going to start seeing early reactions to The Penguin.

 

[BatLobster]

Tbh, upon thinking about it a bit

I agree.

Court of Owls, I personally think, would be perfect for a trilogy ender. I've never been very ecstatic about the idea of the Court as the main villains for Part II and I think you've nailed why.

I think the way you maintain the elements of corruption investigation that Reeves mentioned without retreading on Part I is to tie the overall story and the character transformation to something else. As I keep mentioning, Mr Freeze is probably the most perfect villain for Part II you can ask for. This Batman has grown to realize he has to embody hope for innocents. Freeze expands on that and allows him to learn that he can do the same for people who are not and how that can improve Gotham further. All you have to do is find some way to tie Freeze's story to the overarcing story of Gotham's corruption in the Reevesverse which I honestly don't think is all that hard. Hell, you can literally have GothCorp be run by the Court as a tease and to give reason for Batman to investigate them in a third movie.

I do agree there could be an option C of continuing to plant seeds and hint at the Court, possibly setting that up as the main story for the third film. Or setting up the existence of the Court, without revealing everything about it- IE. who is truly leading it now, any potential ties to the Waynes, Kanes, etc.

This is more of a me thing, but I just have assumed we'd be getting the Court with this take for a long time now because it just makes so much sense for this specific take and style. So if it keeps being teased without actually going there, it's gonna keep making for a somewhat frustrating experience for me unless the story is really so great and intriguing in its revelations that amounts to something even better or more sinister.

 

[solidsnake86]

Maybe we will get more info on The Batman II and finally going to start seeing early reactions to The Penguin.

Maybe someone can actually stop beating around the bush and ask him when it starts filming next year, lol.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I do agree there could be an option C of continuing to plant seeds and hint at the Court, possibly setting that up as the main story for the third film. Or setting up the existence of the Court, without revealing everything about it- IE. who is truly leading it now, any potential ties to the Waynes, Kanes, etc.

This is more of a me thing, but I just have assumed we'd be getting the Court with this take for a long time now because it just makes so much sense for this specific take and style. So if it keeps being teased without actually going there, it's gonna keep making for a somewhat frustrating experience for me unless the story is really so great and intriguing in its revelations that amounts to something even better or more sinister.

The thing I'm trying to keep in mind honestly is where you go from here, with regards to the overarcing Gotham's corruption story that Reeves clearly wants to focus on for his trilogy. The Court of Owls very much feels like the endgame of that story, so imho it stands to reason that that's a story told in the final movie rather than the second. I agree that if the Court gets teased there has to be a payoff. But I definitely can see Batman 3 essentially being an Order vs Chaos type movie where Batman has to juggle between the Court's organisational corruption and Joker's pure anarchy as his Sink or Swim moment before he becomes Prime Batman.

 

[solidsnake86]

Maybe it's finally time I read the court of owls story.

I do like hearing some of the theories out there and if it's not a straight up adaption it could work really well.

I read somewhere that there is a character with a last name Cobb in the court of owls. The thinking is maybe they shortened Oz's last name Cobblepot to Cobb to make them connected. that would be some crazy pre-planning by Reeves to do that but who knows.

Does anyone know if it is collected in one edition.

 

[Mindreaper21]

A good majority of us here realizes that Matt said the seeds to where the story is headed is in the first film and not that it necessarily means that it’s a clue as to who the main villain is, right?

Even if Matt is building up his version of the Court of Owls, that doesn’t mean that Batman will take them on in this film. Batman’s investigation could simply lead him to finding out that they exist by the end.

Either way, the corruption is still just one piece to a much larger puzzle. There’s a lot of other things going on. I believe that the hyper focus on the corruption aspect of the next film is leading some to overlook what’s already in place.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

While it’s a big dramatic flashy twist I feel like ‘Actually, the root of Gotham’s corruption is an evil cult of Owl cosplayers’ is pretty dramatically inert. I know it’s never going to be a deep take on real world institutional corruption but that actually is an element I’d prefer to stay more grounded, I’d have been fine with Reeves pushing it more fantastical than he will overall but I still think it’s more interesting to ground the story in relatively real world institutional failure. Not ‘Oh it’s a secret evil conspiracy by a cartoonish cabal of Illuminati perverts’.

Just feels like the flashier, shallower direction.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The problem with "grounding" Batman TOO MUCH into the real world is then you run into plot holes and logic problems, like the fact that a billionaire running around in a mask and a cape beating up criminals cannot in fact solve the problem of our police forces and systematic racism or whatever. Bruce Timm actually said something similar about how one of the early episodes of BTAS had a plot about Bruce Wayne trying to solve a case of homeless people being kidnapped and forced into slave labor, because the first story editor wanted the show to be about social messages and wanted to use Batman to comment on the homeless problem, which Bruce Timm disagreed with.

"Sean Derek was big on doing shows with social messages. And my big problem with message shows, is that you can't solve the world's problems in a half hour cartoon. If you raise the issue of homelessness, what can you do? It makes the [episode] look very exploitive, because you're just using the problem as an exotic background. You can't discuss the problem on any meaningful level in a 22-minute action cartoon. So I put in the dream sequence with Bruce in the barracks where these multitudes of people are looking to Bruce for a handout, and he doesn't have enough money for them all, and they're surrounding him and suffocating him. It's not enough for him to put a band-aid on the problem at the end, by offering the two guys a job. It just doesn't work."

 

[Mindreaper21]

Maybe it's finally time I read the court of owls story.

I do like hearing some of the theories out there and if it's not a straight up adaption it could work really well.

I read somewhere that there is a character with a last name Cobb in the court of owls. The thinking is maybe they shortened Oz's last name Cobblepot to Cobb to make them connected. that would be some crazy pre-planning by Reeves to do that but who knows.

Does anyone know if it is collected in one edition.

You’re correct about Oz’s name being Ozwald Cobb.

There’s a graphic novel called the Court of Owls Saga. It contains issues 1-11. Maybe that’s the one you should get.

While it’s a big dramatic flashy twist I feel like ‘Actually, the root of Gotham’s corruption is an evil cult of Owl cosplayers’ is pretty dramatically inert. I know it’s never going to be a deep take on real world institutional corruption but that actually is an element I’d prefer to stay more grounded, I’d have been fine with Reeves pushing it more fantastical than he will overall but I still think it’s more interesting to ground the story in relatively real world institutional failure. Not ‘Oh it’s a secret evil conspiracy by a cartoonish cabal of Illuminati perverts’.

Just feels like the flashier, shallower direction.

When you break it down that way, it does sound pretty bad. It can very easily come off as:

“I couldn’t come up with anything good, so I threw in a secret organization that’s responsible for everything to try and make sense of the stuff that makes absolutely no sense”

Like the sequel trilogy to Star Wars. Though, that’s a whole other can of worms that I don’t want to open up.

I think it’s just best to expand on the events that have already taken place instead of going off the rails into a whole different story that’s hardly connected.