This right here is the crux of it to me. Are we to assume that Sal Maroni is the root of all evil in Gotham and that before he rose to power, Gotham was a totally legit, just, beacon of a city without any germ of corruption lurking under the surface? I just think it would make for a much more gripping detective-driven Batman movie if the answer is no. And that Batman still has to get to the bottom of it in order to have any sort of chance at understanding the deeper forces that breed corruption in the city and create a lasting change. Otherwise it's gonna be a never-ending cycle of Maroni gets replaced by Falcone, who gets replaced by Penguin, etc.
While I think Court of Owls is most likely, I dont think we should write off Long Halloween just yet. I mean, we could potentially get a variation on both even! We just don't know yet. But if The Penguin hints at a specific story for Part II, we won't have long to wait.
Personally, I do hope we get an onslaught of Batman's rogues even if the story is primarily focused on the Court. Not all the rogues encounters have to be full on fights, but it would be really cool.
We've got another new quote from Matt Reeves about The Batman, Part II and its key inspiration thematically...
Matt Reeves on The Batman Part II's Inspiration said:
The intense division that there is right now. On the one hand, you say it’s a thing going on in the United States—and obviously Gotham is an American city—but really it’s worldwide. There’s just tremendous division, the way that the world gets its information, its news. Everybody is in their own silo. That sense of the environment of today, where it’s just very easy for people to be completely separate and at complete odds—that’s definitely one of the things that we’re looking at in Gotham. Some of that is just the way that society is, but some of that is intentional—and to the degree that that’s intentional, and how that fits into the larger picture of what the motivations behind that might be, that’s one of the things that we’re exploring as well.
This right here is the crux of it to me. Are we to assume that Sal Maroni is the root of all evil in Gotham and that before he rose to power, Gotham was a totally legit, just, beacon of a city without any germ of corruption lurking under the surface? I just think it would make for a much more gripping detective-driven Batman movie if the answer is no. And that Batman still has to get to the bottom of it in order to have any sort of chance at understanding the deeper forces that breed corruption in the city and create a lasting change. Otherwise it's gonna be a never-ending cycle of Maroni gets replaced by Falcone, who gets replaced by Penguin, etc.
I really just depends on where Matt wants to take the story. Should he go back decades? Centuries? Should he tell the entire history of the Gotham? What about other gangs besides Maroni’s and Falcon’s like Calabrese’s? Maybe Black Mask is out there somewhere. What parts of the city did these gangs control?
I’m just looking at what’s been presented so far. At the moment, the next film is focused on the gangs of Gotham. The power grab. This is where we left off at the end of The Batman and that’s the direction we were headed with the second film before part of it turned into the Penguin series.
Like I said, there’s still plenty of room to explore other things. Is Batman tracking another serial killer? Is he tracking a themed villain? What he’s up to is an absolute mystery right now. The Court is still a possibility if Matt takes it there. Though, fans can easily set themselves up for disappointment by trying to make pieces fit that aren’t currently there.
They get their information from the studios. If they ever get their informtion wrong it's because the studios end up changing their plans or axing a project all together.
I'm pretty sure production weekly is not to be relied upon. One of the major trades would have picked this up.
Also, clayface is such a random movie especially if it's tied to the DCU. If it's tied to the batman universe, the batman part II isn't even in pre-production.
I'm pretty sure it was bigscreenleaks that mentioned Flanagan getting his clayface movie. That was the only information that came out at the time.
Production Weekly is super legit. It gets details wrong a lot of the time but its not a shoddy source at all.
My guess if there's a Clayface project it was because it was something Flanagan wanted to do and being in the Mike Flanagan business would be good for the DCU. My lack of enthusiasm for the DCU doesn't need repeating but I do think it'll lead to some fun projects like that which exists solely because a cool filmmaker happened to wanna make it.
I really just depends on where Matt wants to take the story. Should he go back decades? Centuries? Should he tell the entire history of the Gotham? What about other gangs besides Maroni’s and Falcon’s like Calabrese’s? Maybe Black Mask is out there somewhere. What parts of the city did these gangs control?
I’m just looking at what’s been presented so far. At the moment, the next film is focused on the gangs of Gotham. The power grab. This is where we left off at the end of The Batman and that’s the direction we were headed with the second film before part of it turned into the Penguin series.
Like I said, there’s still plenty of room to explore other things. Is Batman tracking another serial killer? Is he tracking a themed villain? What he’s up to is an absolute mystery right now. The Court is still a possibility if Matt takes it there. Though, fans can easily set themselves up for disappointment by trying to make pieces fit that aren’t currently there.
At this point, I really think that the gang war in Gotham set up by the end of Part 1 is going to be effectively over by the time The Penguin concludes. After all, the sales pitch for the show from day one has been about seeing how Oz becomes the new Kingpin of Gotham City.
That isn't to say that I think we won't continue to see influences from The Long Halloween and Dark Victory informing the story Matt Reeves is telling in this saga, mind you. However I think a lot of the familiar players and names from the comic are going to shift around and that we're going to see Oz stand in for characters like Carmine Falcone or Sal Maroni. For instance, if Harvey Dent pops up in Part 2 and we get that Dent legal series that was alluded to recently after that, who throws the acid in Harvey's face to have him be Two-Face going into Part 3? IMO, it'll be Oz.
As for the Court of Owls, I'd been one of the more staunch naysayers about them being next on the docket for the past two years. To me, I'd been of the mind that they risked coming off as a bit gimmicky or undermining the impact of the last film's conspiracy with Falcone, even if I'm a big fan of them and have also felt for years that the Court had one of the best baked-in sales pitches for a Batman movie ever with "Eyes Wide Shut, but with Batman." So despite my fondness for the Court, I've been someone who felt they probably weren't the right pick for Part 2 for a good long while now.
However, going off of Reeves' comments as of late for where things are heading going into Part 2, I just find it very difficult to genuinely think it's not them and I feel that the counterarguments against the next villains being the Court here ring very hollow. "Deeper corruption", as Matt put it, immediately indicates that the story isn't about just any random new form of corruption somewhere in Gotham City- it's specifically about a corrupt plot hidden beneath the one we already found in Part 1. And considering the scale of what Falcone had in place last go-around, there's not much in the way of alternatives to the Court of Owls, save for something like the Black Glove or maybe Ra's and the League of Shadows.
And now we've got this whole new quote from Reeves about how the theme of Part 2's story revolves around the intense political division among the populace that exists today and how a significant portion of that division exists deliberately by players stoking the flames and feeding disinformation and manipulating narratives to get the populace to react in ways that befit the head's personal interests.
So again, looking at the pieces on the board and the comments from Matt and co. lately... I just feel compelled to call a spade a spade here. Could other villains like Hush or Mr. Freeze be involved and integrated into a story surrounding the Court? I think so, yes. But I also don't think that the mystery Reeves is setting up here for Part 2 is going to just be about Salvatore Maroni or someone of his ilk.
With The Batman and The Penguin, the fifty-eight-year-old director has done the impossible: created a Gotham that people agree on. Here, he talks about Colin Farrell’s transformation, The Batman Part II, and what’s next.
Yep, that's the article with the new quote from Reeves about Part 2 that I shared earlier! Great read.
As an aside, apparently Reeves isn't sure yet if Greig Fraser's schedule is going to work out for him to shoot The Batman, Part 2. Hopefully it all works out and we don't have to lose Fraser, but even if it happens, I can already think of a couple possible worthy successors. Obvious Sir Roger Deakins comes to mind, but another name I really dig here if needed would be Galo Olivares, who worked on Alien: Romulus and Alfonso Cuaron's Roma.
Yep, that's the article with the new quote from Reeves about Part 2 that I shared earlier! Great read.
As an aside, apparently Reeves isn't sure yet if Greig Fraser's schedule is going to work out for him to shoot The Batman, Part 2. Hopefully it all works out and we don't have to lose Fraser, but even if it happens, I can already think of a couple possible worthy successors. Obvious Sir Roger Deakins comes to mind, but another name I really dig here if needed would be Galo Olivares, who worked on Alien: Romulus and Alfonso Cuaron's Roma.
Production Weekly is super legit. It gets details wrong a lot of the time but its not a shoddy source at all.
My guess if there's a Clayface project it was because it was something Flanagan wanted to do and being in the Mike Flanagan business would be good for the DCU. My lack of enthusiasm for the DCU doesn't need repeating but I do think it'll lead to some fun projects like that which exists solely because a cool filmmaker happened to wanna make it.
Maybe my memory is shaky, but weren't there rumours that Scarecrow & Clayface movies were in the works as part of The Batman Epic Crime Saga? If they take the OG Clayface route, I could see Flanagan fitting in perfectly with Reeves' world.
At this point, I really think that the gang war in Gotham set up by the end of Part 1 is going to be effectively over by the time The Penguin concludes. After all, the sales pitch for the show from day one has been about seeing how Oz becomes the new Kingpin of Gotham City.
That isn't to say that I think we won't continue to see influences from The Long Halloween and Dark Victory informing the story Matt Reeves is telling in this saga, mind you. However I think a lot of the familiar players and names from the comic are going to shift around and that we're going to see Oz stand in for characters like Carmine Falcone or Sal Maroni. For instance, if Harvey Dent pops up in Part 2 and we get that Dent legal series that was alluded to recently after that, who throws the acid in Harvey's face to have him be Two-Face going into Part 3? IMO, it'll be Oz.
As for the Court of Owls, I'd been one of the more staunch naysayers about them being next on the docket for the past two years. To me, I'd been of the mind that they risked coming off as a bit gimmicky or undermining the impact of the last film's conspiracy with Falcone, even if I'm a big fan of them and have also felt for years that the Court had one of the best baked-in sales pitches for a Batman movie ever with "Eyes Wide Shut, but with Batman." So despite my fondness for the Court, I've been someone who felt they probably weren't the right pick for Part 2 for a good long while now.
However, going off of Reeves' comments as of late for where things are heading going into Part 2, I just find it very difficult to genuinely think it's not them and I feel that the counterarguments against the next villains being the Court here ring very hollow. "Deeper corruption", as Matt put it, immediately indicates that the story isn't about just any random new form of corruption somewhere in Gotham City- it's specifically about a corrupt plot hidden beneath the one we already found in Part 1. And considering the scale of what Falcone had in place last go-around, there's not much in the way of alternatives to the Court of Owls, save for something like the Black Glove or maybe Ra's and the League of Shadows.
And now we've got this whole new quote from Reeves about how the theme of Part 2's story revolves around the intense political division among the populace that exists today and how a significant portion of that division exists deliberately by players stoking the flames and feeding disinformation and manipulating narratives to get the populace to react in ways that befit the head's personal interests.
So again, looking at the pieces on the board and the comments from Matt and co. lately... I just feel compelled to call a spade a spade here. Could other villains like Hush or Mr. Freeze be involved and integrated into a story surrounding the Court? I think so, yes. But I also don't think that the mystery Reeves is setting up here for Part 2 is going to just be about Salvatore Maroni or someone of his ilk.
If the gang war is completely over by the beginning of the second film, that also leads me to wonder what Penguin’s role will be in the second film. Would he become Kingpin just to be another pawn in The Court’s grand scheme?
I do agree that if Harvey shows up in part 2 that Penguin will be the one to scar him. It would be a nice reference to the Telltale series. As for a Harvey Dent series, it’s only a concept. For all we know, Harvey could get scarred early on in the second film. Anything could be taking place during the events of The Penguin.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that The Court may not be involved. I just haven’t seen any evidence in the story so far that suggests that they exist. As for them being the main villains of the next film, that’s just questionable to me. Just like The Riddler was the main villain of the first film, but the mystery was about who controls Gotham through Renewal.
I’m also not suggesting that Maroni or some other mob boss will be the main villain or anything like that. I don’t really believe that gangs will be a major focus of the story since The Penguin focuses on that. The only things I can say for sure are the things that are referenced to in the first film. The need for a new D.A, the restructuring of Gotham’s legal system, Hush’s connection through the murder of Edward Elliot, Joker plotting with Riddler to break out of Arkham and Penguin’s return. Where it goes from there is a toss up because there are already a lot of pieces on the board.
Question for those that want or suspect the court:
What would you change about them to fit this saga and how would you move the story forward into the third film?
Considering The Penguin got his first solo comic in the lead up to his spin-off series, it’ll be very funny if Reeves was telling the truth about considering another series with Harvey Dent…
If the gang war is completely over by the beginning of the second film, that also leads me to wonder what Penguin’s role will be in the second film. Would he become Kingpin just to be another pawn in The Court’s grand scheme?
Going off this slightly spoiler-y comment Colin Ferrell made in a recent interview with Rotten Tomatoes TV about the last episode of The Penguin and where he personally suspects Oz's character is going to be go next in Part 2, my guess is that if the villains are the Court of Owls, Oz is going to find out about their existence early on in the film and become very, very eager to join their ranks to prove his worth in joining what he'd see as "the Best of the Best" in Gotham City.
I do agree that if Harvey shows up in part 2 that Penguin will be the one to scar him. It would be a nice reference to the Telltale series. As for a Harvey Dent series, it’s only a concept. For all we know, Harvey could get scarred early on in the second film. Anything could be taking place during the events of The Penguin.
I'll actually take it a step further- I think that if Penguin ends up being the one to scar Harvey, we're going to see The Big Two-Face Moment from the end of The Long Halloween, with Penguin standing in for Carmine Falcone in Part 3.
"Two shots to the head. If you ask me, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that The Court may not be involved. I just haven’t seen any evidence in the story so far that suggests that they exist. As for them being the main villains of the next film, that’s just questionable to me. Just like The Riddler was the main villain of the first film, but the mystery was about who controls Gotham through Renewal.
There's moments in the first film that I think can easily be construed to be referring to the Court, though obviously some of those lines initially read to audiences as being about something more obvious that's relevant to the first film, such as Carmine's corrupt internal political system or whether or not Carmine was involved in the Wayne murders.
I’m also not suggesting that Maroni or some other mob boss will be the main villain or anything like that. I don’t really believe that gangs will be a major focus of the story since The Penguin focuses on that. The only things I can say for sure are the things that are referenced to in the first film. The need for a new D.A, the restructuring of Gotham’s legal system, Hush’s connection through the murder of Edward Elliot, Joker plotting with Riddler to break out of Arkham and Penguin’s return. Where it goes from there is a toss up because there are already a lot of pieces on the board.
Question for those that want or suspect the court:
What would you change about them to fit this saga and how would you move the story forward into the third film?
Again, as someone who previously was a pretty big skeptic of the Court of Owls being the next villains in Part 2 for the past two years, I actually shared a lot of those same thoughts as you about all the different pieces on the board already that'd potentially be lost in the wayside if something as huge as the Court were to be introduced.
But then it hit me about two possible changes to the Court of Owls that Reeves could very easily make for this story that'd actually help tie everything else back together into one cohesive narrative:
Combine the character of Hush/Thomas Elliott with that of Lincoln March, ejecting out the comic's original Thomas Wayne Jr twist and inserting in the drastically new origin story that was set up for Hush in Part 1
Either drastically reduce the presence of the Talons or replace them outright via the Court using their wealth and political influence to exploit the Freaks/Rogues Gallery into doing their bidding for them across Gotham City as Batman continues to dig closer and closer to the truth of their conspiracies
Going off this slightly spoiler-y comment Colin Ferrell made in a recent interview with Rotten Tomatoes TV about the last episode of The Penguin and where he personally suspects Oz's character is going to be go next in Part 2, my guess is that if the villains are the Court of Owls, Oz is going to find out about their existence early on in the film and become very, very eager to join their ranks to prove his worth in joining what he'd see as "the Best of the Best" in Gotham City.
I'll actually take it a step further- I think that if Penguin ends up being the one to scar Harvey, we're going to see The Big Two-Face Moment from the end of The Long Halloween, with Penguin standing in for Carmine Falcone in Part 3.
"Two shots to the head. If you ask me, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."
There's moments in the first film that I think can easily be construed to be referring to the Court, though obviously some of those lines initially read to audiences as being about something more obvious that's relevant to the first film, such as Carmine's corrupt internal political system or whether or not Carmine was involved in the Wayne murders.
Again, as someone who previously was a pretty big skeptic of the Court of Owls being the next villains in Part 2 for the past two years, I actually shared a lot of those same thoughts as you about all the different pieces on the board already that'd potentially be lost in the wayside if something as huge as the Court were to be introduced.
But then it hit me about two possible changes to the Court of Owls that Reeves could very easily make for this story that'd actually help tie everything else back together into one cohesive narrative:
Combine the character of Hush/Thomas Elliott with that of Lincoln March, ejecting out the comic's original Thomas Wayne Jr twist and inserting in the drastically new origin story that was set up for Hush in Part 1
Either drastically reduce the presence of the Talons or replace them outright via the Court using their wealth and political influence to exploit the Freaks/Rogues Gallery into doing their bidding for them across Gotham City as Batman continues to dig closer and closer to the truth of their conspiracies
Further to this, I wonder how much the death of the Wayne’s will play into this (if it plays out this way). Did the Court have a hand? Or will it be left ambiguous?
Time to dig up my copy of the Court of Owls and refresh myself on the story!
Going off this slightly spoiler-y comment Colin Ferrell made in a recent interview with Rotten Tomatoes TV about the last episode of The Penguin and where he personally suspects Oz's character is going to be go next in Part 2, my guess is that if the villains are the Court of Owls, Oz is going to find out about their existence early on in the film and become very, very eager to join their ranks to prove his worth in joining what he'd see as "the Best of the Best" in Gotham City.
I'll actually take it a step further- I think that if Penguin ends up being the one to scar Harvey, we're going to see The Big Two-Face Moment from the end of The Long Halloween, with Penguin standing in for Carmine Falcone in Part 3.
"Two shots to the head. If you ask me, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."
There's moments in the first film that I think can easily be construed to be referring to the Court, though obviously some of those lines initially read to audiences as being about something more obvious that's relevant to the first film, such as Carmine's corrupt internal political system or whether or not Carmine was involved in the Wayne murders.
Again, as someone who previously was a pretty big skeptic of the Court of Owls being the next villains in Part 2 for the past two years, I actually shared a lot of those same thoughts as you about all the different pieces on the board already that'd potentially be lost in the wayside if something as huge as the Court were to be introduced.
But then it hit me about two possible changes to the Court of Owls that Reeves could very easily make for this story that'd actually help tie everything else back together into one cohesive narrative:
Combine the character of Hush/Thomas Elliott with that of Lincoln March, ejecting out the comic's original Thomas Wayne Jr twist and inserting in the drastically new origin story that was set up for Hush in Part 1
Either drastically reduce the presence of the Talons or replace them outright via the Court using their wealth and political influence to exploit the Freaks/Rogues Gallery into doing their bidding for them across Gotham City as Batman continues to dig closer and closer to the truth of their conspiracies
It’s an interesting take. I think of it this way: If no one is bigger than The Court, why would they be the main villains in the second film? To me, that’s like writing a story and the hero defeats the villain in the second act. So, if the Court is involved, it would make more sense to me to have Batman discover them in the next film and face them in the final film.
It would be cool if The Court is somehow responsible for Wayne murders. That’s something that I suspected after watching the first film. I don’t think it’s necessary to combine Hush and Lincoln March though. Hopefully The Penguin series will give us something to go on.
Why hold off for a third movie you might not even get? If they have a great story to tell with The Court Of Owls, just use it for the sequel. Worry about the third movie later.
Why hold off for a third movie you might not even get? If they have a great story to tell with The Court Of Owls, just use it for the sequel. Worry about the third movie later.
Watched the first episode of the penguin, wow, was not expecting that. They did an excellent job with it and can't wait to watch the rest of the series.
But as C Prometheus said, I can totally see penguin taking the place of carmine and may be what they are building up towards.
Although I'm torn about Batman not showing up, I ultimately think it's for the best. As much as I would like the tv shows to continue the story, I think it's best when they add to it and you leave the movies to have the bigger narrative beats in order to move it forward. The reality is not everyone will watch this show and that's a shame.
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