I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[SwordOfMorning]

It’s really puzzling how people can watch this saga and believe that some half dead guy with a severe case of hypothermia is going to show up out of nowhere in a SpaceX suit with an advanced military grade weapon to freeze people even further to death just because he’s mad that no one will fund his research to cure his wife’s lung disease.

It’s just a “villain of the week” plot that goes nowhere. I like Mr. Freeze a lot, though he has no real place in this crime saga. It’s like reading a book and the writer decides that he’s going to move away from the main plot to introduce a new character right in the middle of the story just because he thinks he’s cool.

Because hopefully this story will go in directions that aren't immediately blazingly obvious? We have no idea what Reeves is planning. I'm sure all of us are wrong about it.

It's also not "one book". It's a series of stories that will all presumably have their own self contained narratives that are part of the larger whole. There's several ways Freeze could be utilized that would tie into the themes Reeves is working from - particularly if he wanted to delve into the white collar crime side of corruption in Gotham, something Freeze as a character is traditionally tied to in his backstory.

Freeze feels very unlikely to me, sadly. But so does Robin and there are a million ways to make him work in this context as well.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It’s really puzzling how people can watch this saga and believe that some half dead guy with a severe case of hypothermia is going to show up out of nowhere in a SpaceX suit with an advanced military grade weapon to freeze people even further to death just because he’s mad that no one will fund his research to cure his wife’s lung disease.

It’s just a “villain of the week” plot that goes nowhere. I like Mr. Freeze a lot, though he has no real place in this crime saga. It’s like reading a book and the writer decides that he’s going to move away from the main plot to introduce a new character right in the middle of the story just because he thinks he’s cool.

It's really puzzling that people keep pitching the idea of remaking the first movie over and over.

 

[Snow Queen]

It’s really puzzling how people can watch this saga and believe that some half dead guy with a severe case of hypothermia is going to show up out of nowhere in a SpaceX suit with an advanced military grade weapon to freeze people even further to death just because he’s mad that no one will fund his research to cure his wife’s lung disease.

It’s just a “villain of the week” plot that goes nowhere. I like Mr. Freeze a lot, though he has no real place in this crime saga. It’s like reading a book and the writer decides that he’s going to move away from the main plot to introduce a new character right in the middle of the story just because he thinks he’s cool.

Man, what a creatively bereft way of approaching it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm on board for whatever Matt decides to do. But when people continually argue what the guy who made the ape movies can and can't do in his Gotham. All I can think is:

 

[Sawyer]

Me: *silently watching y’all debate the merits of Mr. Freeze and his place in this world, while secretly hoping we’re in for a Mad Hatter experience*

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Me: *silently watching y’all debate the merits of Mr. Freeze and his place in this world, while secretly hoping we’re in for a Mad Hatter experience*

Is this Mad Hatter a... child molester?

 

[Sawyer]

Is this Mad Hatter a... child molester?

I’m sure they could cook up a take on the character that isn’t quite so alienating.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I’m sure they could cook up a take on the character that isn’t quite so alienating.

But would it alienate the all important panel that may or may not include former posters here?

 

[Sawyer]

But would it alienate the all important panel that may or may not include former posters here?

That idea will die on the vine when the studios realize that they only thing their “superfan focus groups” bring to the table are “Make it like it was when I was 12, and also why aren’t all these characters straight white men?”

 

[AndrewGilkison]

But would it alienate the all important panel that may or may not include former posters here?

I suppose "hiring filmmakers who actually have their fingers on the pulse" wasn't an option they considered?

 

[Mindreaper21]

Here’s the thing. I haven’t heard a compelling argument as to why Mr. Freeze should be in the next film. Most of what I’ve come across is either because he was name dropped by Reeves in an old interview or because it’s winter. Even if he was the villain, where would the story even go? You could strip him of most of the elements that makes him so popular and tie him to the mob, but why? I see a lot of people focusing more on what’s possible, but often times it seems like they’re ignoring the story.

Mad Hatter would be a far better fit for this universe without unnecessary changes to his character. He’s a themed villain that pushes drugs with Alice in Wonderland themed henchmen for Batman to beat the hell out of. “Whoever controls the drugs controls Gotham”. Then there’s the other side of Hatter. No, he doesn’t have to be a pedo. He could run a child trafficking ring or he could kidnap someone’s daughter for ransom. You could even have an unsettling scene with him and some girl without being blunt. Hatter would be totally new to the big screen and provide a different level of crime without throwing the story into a completely different direction.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I think Freeze would be good for a part 3.

Part 2 I think should be more about Bruce learning to be "Bruce" again, overcoming his fear of vulnerability (not so subtlety symbolised by his exposed face, as we get more of the classic Bruce Wayne). An investigation involving some Hush/Clayface amalgamation, eventually finding Bruce himself under the bandages, dun dun dun, with Bruce getting thrown in Arkham, meeting Hugo Strange, where he undergoes tests under the influence of mind-altering drugs courtesy of Jervis Tetch, or fear-induced research via Crane (adrenochrome). And maybe the only one who kinda knows what's up is Joker, and so Bruce has to work together with him to uncover the corruption of Arkham from within, a trippy odyssey that ends with Bruce solving the crime once he starts to recognise the actor in himself or whatever, eventually catching Basil Carlo. Have him tell his identity to Gordon, start a relationship with Selina, take on a ward, etc.

Then the third film could deal with the fear of losing his new family, his final test. And Freeze, as he is always is, is a good parallel to Bruce regarding fear of loss of our loved ones, and a test for Bruce's moral code. If in part 3, Bruce learns of the terrifying truth of the Court of Owls, the rich and powerful ones responsible for human trafficking, illegal research, who control all the media, and could be anyone, everywhere (you know, Eyes Wide Shut stuff, leaving an owl mask beside Dick or Selina's pillow to remind Bruce they could come take them at any time), that would send his fear of loss into overdrive, making him regret ever opening up to anyone in the first place, and also test his morals. Would he consider tuning a blind eye to the criminal actions of Freeze (the Court's lead cryo scientist gone rogue) if he was taking care of the court in order to keep his wife safe? What lengths would Bruce go to?

 

[DeadlyWest]

Here’s the thing. I haven’t heard a compelling argument as to why Mr. Freeze should be in the next film. Most of what I’ve come across is either because he was name dropped by Reeves in an old interview or because it’s winter. Even if he was the villain, where would the story even go? You could strip him of most of the elements that makes him so popular and tie him to the mob, but why? I see a lot of people focusing more on what’s possible, but often times it seems like they’re ignoring the story.

Mad Hatter would be a far better fit for this universe without unnecessary changes to his character. He’s a themed villain that pushes drugs with Alice in Wonderland themed henchmen for Batman to beat the hell out of. “Whoever controls the drugs controls Gotham”. Then there’s the other side of Hatter. No, he doesn’t have to be a pedo. He could run a child trafficking ring or he could kidnap someone’s daughter for ransom. You could even have an unsettling scene with him and some girl without being blunt. Hatter would be totally new to the big screen and provide a different level of crime without throwing the story into a completely different direction.

Because the quintessential Mr Freeze story would be perfect to develop Bruce's character.

He's learned he needs to inspire hope in the people of Gotham, Freeze shows him how he can do the same even for those he deemed unredeemable in the first movie.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Because the quintessential Mr Freeze story would be perfect to develop Bruce's character.

He's learned he needs to inspire hope in the people of Gotham, Freeze shows him how he can do the same even for those he deemed unredeemable in the first movie.

Any random character could be used to do this though. How would he connect to the story as a whole and drive it forward? There’s nothing in the first film that would even suggest that Mr. Freeze exists. Nor does any of the information surrounding the saga suggest that the film is heading in that direction. I would be very surprised if he shows up, but for the sort of story Matt is telling, he would be mostly unrecognizable.

So, with all that was built on in the first film, is Mr. Freeze going to just show up and put people with terminal illnesses in a meat locker to research how he can cure his Nora? Is she part of the corruption? Mr. Freeze is essentially an introverted anti-villain, so how would he bring the story to the climax of the saga?

 

[emielaen]

This idea that a character can only show up if they’re teased before hand is pure post-2012 fandom brain and it’s not tight.

 

[Johnny Frost]

Considering Reeves reportedly finished the script for The Batman II recently, it's likely one of the scripts Gunn is referring to here, right?

 

[Boom]

There’s nothing in the first film that would even suggest that Mr. Freeze exists.

So?

 

[emielaen]

View attachment 106148
Considering Reeves reportedly finished the script for The Batman II recently, it's likely one of the scripts Gunn is referring to here, right?

I imagine he read that one already.

 

[Mindreaper21]

This idea that a character can only show up if they’re teased before hand is pure post-2012 fandom brain and it’s not tight.

If this were the case, I would have never suggested characters like Two-Face, Hatter and Black Mask. The only character that was actually teased in the film was Hush. All of these characters would make sense because of the story that’s being told.

Had Matt not said that the clues to where he goes next is in the first film, I would be thinking a lot differently.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

That idea will die on the vine when the studios realize that they only thing their “superfan focus groups” bring to the table are “Make it like it was when I was 12, and also why aren’t all these characters straight white men?”

If you’re serious that’s a really foolish take and says a lot about your self awareness. Brother you have a ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND posts on a superhero website and yet you think Superfans (like yourself) have nothing to bring to the table. This is either hyperbolic or moronic.

I genuinely believe if Disney listened to more fans (or even if they just took a second look at the EU and Lucas’s original outline for the ST) they wouldn’t be in the pickle they’re in with Star Wars. It’s really silly to boil down fandom into such black and white absolutes (only a Sith deals in absolutes) but that’s what the media has conditioned you to do. Followers believe all the articles that come out about toxic fandom being nothing but racist bigots because then you can conveniently ignore some of the valid criticisms super fans have. There are obviously toxic super fans that are full of hate and bigotry (I don’t condone those fools) but acting like you’re somehow better than other fans (and not part of the same “super fan” group when you have thousands of posts and hours logged on this site) is toxic too and kind of funny.

If all you see when people complain about nerd stuff is the racism and bigotry, you’re on the wrong sites, dude. Maybe you’re looking for those types of comments to justify your perceived superiority over “superfans” (which is literally what you are too). I see a lot of complaints about Marvel, DC, and Star Wars that have nothing to do with skin color or political agendas. Lots of fans genuinely just want good stories about things they care about. All three of those franchises have had some absolutely dreadful content coming out in the last few years, and it’s not because the fans thought the movies needed less gay people or more white people, it’s because the stories just weren’t there. Generally, if a story is actually good in one of these franchises, it won’t matter what color people are or who they choose to kiss. Story is everything.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Affordable risk-reduction checks for hundred million dollar investments is a no brainer and I always wondered why they didn't do more of this.

They don't have to listen to focus groups (nor do they do have to listen to stupid racist or minsogynst complaints etc), but it's no harm to run it by others.

 

[solidsnake86]

To me it's a balancing act with fans. Not all comic book ideas are great and should be open to adaptation.

I read court of owls and some of it probably wouldn't translate well to screen in Matt Reeves world, so if he adapts it I would see no issue, but would a superfan focus group be upset about the talons not being more or less zombies?

Would the focus group have been happy with the way dent was handled in the dark knight? He wasn't really like the comic book character but in the context of the movie it worked.

Those are the things that I think about when going down that route.

At the same time, I look at a movie like the Joker (2019) and think, why is this movie using DC IP when he clearly wanted to make his own movie and just used the character of joker.

I have always thought that marvel has had a certain luxury outside of spider-man and X-Men because on some level, there was a smaller sample of great stories for iron man, captain america and Thor which allowed them to take the best ideas and remix them into a great story without much backlash.

But then I see some of these influencer comic book posters and I roll my eyes. I get the game though, they need engagement so they say ridiculous things.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

If you’re serious that’s a really foolish take and says a lot about your self awareness. Brother you have a ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND posts on a superhero website and yet you think Superfans (like yourself) have nothing to bring to the table. This is either hyperbolic or moronic.

I genuinely believe if Disney listened to more fans (or even if they just took a second look at the EU and Lucas’s original outline for the ST) they wouldn’t be in the pickle they’re in with Star Wars. It’s really silly to boil down fandom into such black and white absolutes (only a Sith deals in absolutes) but that’s what the media has conditioned you to do. Followers believe all the articles that come out about toxic fandom being nothing but racist bigots because then you can conveniently ignore some of the valid criticisms super fans have. There are obviously toxic super fans that are full of hate and bigotry (I don’t condone those fools) but acting like you’re somehow better than other fans (and not part of the same “super fan” group when you have thousands of posts and hours logged on this site) is toxic too and kind of funny.

If all you see when people complain about nerd stuff is the racism and bigotry, you’re on the wrong sites, dude. Maybe you’re looking for those types of comments to justify your perceived superiority over “superfans” (which is literally what you are too). I see a lot of complaints about Marvel, DC, and Star Wars that have nothing to do with skin color or political agendas. Lots of fans genuinely just want good stories about things they care about. All three of those franchises have had some absolutely dreadful content coming out in the last few years, and it’s not because the fans thought the movies needed less gay people or more white people, it’s because the stories just weren’t there. Generally, if a story is actually good in one of these franchises, it won’t matter what color people are or who they choose to kiss. Story is everything.

Okay, first: don't tell someone they're being moronic or brainwashed because they have the basic observational ability required to see that fandom is being eaten alive by culturally retrograde cancer. It is the primary, driving force in modern fandom discourse - all of these properties actual role in the world is as fronts in the culture war. That's just the fact of the matter - Star Wars as a movie is almost totally irrelevant compared to Star Wars as something to be weaponized. It sucks, and the total mediocrity (partially brought on by constant desperate fan service) of them making them nearly devoid of creative merit is a factor in why that's the case, but it's the way of the world. You're allowed to disagree with that and voice it, obviously, but "lol you're just saying that because THE MEDIA LIED TO YOU" is needlessly patronizing. Obviously Sawyer's issue with the kind of people most likely to be recruited for and listened to in this circle of cowardice is not that they're Nerds - the first people who are listened to by studios in fandom are white, conservative men and the first people to get ****ed are anyone else.

Second, mod hat off: It's just not true that story is everything. Obviously the relative low quality of modern nerd media is a major factor but, like, fans have notorious trash taste. What the most vocal fans want is just more of what they recognize tailored to their own dogmatic beliefs of how the property should be handled. A big factor in that is always their political leanings. Not every person who thinks modern Star Wars or the MCU blows is a right wing bigot but it is unarguably a primary driving force in modern fandom culture.

This story is specifically about how not to provoke the fanbase. I don't know how, in the modern landscape, that can be read as anything other than the things fandom actually is perpetually unhinged about.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If you’re serious that’s a really foolish take and says a lot about your self awareness. Brother you have a ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND posts on a superhero website and yet you think Superfans (like yourself) have nothing to bring to the table. This is either hyperbolic or moronic.

I genuinely believe if Disney listened to more fans (or even if they just took a second look at the EU and Lucas’s original outline for the ST) they wouldn’t be in the pickle they’re in with Star Wars. It’s really silly to boil down fandom into such black and white absolutes (only a Sith deals in absolutes) but that’s what the media has conditioned you to do. Followers believe all the articles that come out about toxic fandom being nothing but racist bigots because then you can conveniently ignore some of the valid criticisms super fans have. There are obviously toxic super fans that are full of hate and bigotry (I don’t condone those fools) but acting like you’re somehow better than other fans (and not part of the same “super fan” group when you have thousands of posts and hours logged on this site) is toxic too and kind of funny.

If all you see when people complain about nerd stuff is the racism and bigotry, you’re on the wrong sites, dude. Maybe you’re looking for those types of comments to justify your perceived superiority over “superfans” (which is literally what you are too). I see a lot of complaints about Marvel, DC, and Star Wars that have nothing to do with skin color or political agendas. Lots of fans genuinely just want good stories about things they care about. All three of those franchises have had some absolutely dreadful content coming out in the last few years, and it’s not because the fans thought the movies needed less gay people or more white people, it’s because the stories just weren’t there. Generally, if a story is actually good in one of these franchises, it won’t matter what color people are or who they choose to kiss. Story is everything.

Being a fan of something doesn't make anyone knowledgeable on how to create art.

How folks engage in fandom can easily separate them. Having an earnest love for something, isn't the same as acting like you possess it.

If you think the reason people have been toxic about DC, Marvel, and Star Wars is because they've created "bad content" then I have a bridge to sell you. Oh, and that use of "content"? Are those the words of a "superfan"?

 

[SwordOfMorning]

While obviously there are certainly people out there who cry wolf a bit when they pretend that the only reason someone wouldn't like The Acolyte (haven't seen, no opinion on it) is bigotry, it's also not like most of the criticism of toxic fandom is coming from hardcore Disney era SW or comparable Content Soup fans looking for a defence. Look at this community: the posters who make up our own local woke mob mostly dislike all that stuff on an artistic level.