Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by DeGenerate10, Nov 11, 2012.
Part of me wishes they used the 400-page script and just split it into two films.
I like ya thinkin'. I'd still eliminate the LoS stuff and Talia but other than that those are some good changes. The biological warfare stuff is cool but maybe a little too reminiscent of film one. The quarantining of Gotham is without doubt a much better idea I will say.
In hindsight, I wish Nolan would have stuck to what was setup in TDK. The acheivements by Dent and the fear of undoing them was seen as monumental by Gordon and Batman at the end of TDK. So much so, Batman was willing to be labelled a cop murderer in order to preserve what Dent had done and also out of the fear of what would happen if the truth was found out. This great secret and coverup that Gordon and Batman felt might tear Gotham apart really turned into a non event in TDKR when it was revealed. With the threat of nuclear extinction in Gotham, who would really care about what Dent had done? And so the noble act that seemed so important at the end of TDK, became nothing more then a checkmark on a checklist of things that had to be revisisted. Bane's or Talia's success in taking over Gotham was pretty much sealed once they blew up the football field and showed the folks of Gotham their nuclear bomb.
And you're saying that as someone who believed Nolan didn't stick to what was set up in TDK? Nolan acknowledged what would have been best to do after TDK and so what is TDKR of the Dent Act being created, Batman not being needed, et cetera. It may not be what someone would expect would come after TDK, but obviously it's what Nolan thought was best.
I would have loved two long movies. Heck, a mini-series set in Bane's No-Man's-Land would have been better.
They could have really made this thing feel like an epic, with a bunch of asides with random smaller villains (who Bane unleashes), etc.
Still a great single movie though.
A mini-series would seem really odd to fit in two actual movies from Nolan and while I wouldn't mind two parts, the best option I'd have gone for is one long movie that didn't have limits from IMAX.
Alot of people fail to realize that the point was that the Joker DID win despite them trying to prove otherwise. He made them turn on their belief in the fixing the system by making them rig it. This was Joker's ace in the hole, not just the motivation for the final act in TDK. The Nolans actually made it mean alot more than it being the right choice. It truly made for an interesting scenario. They DID win the war on street crime. But that was not really what he'd set out to do. He'd set out to reinstill hope in the infrastructure of their city. To get rid of the "Joe Chills" of the world by getting rid of the corruption by poisoned it. This is why he was so into the teachings of the LOS, but ultimately rejected because their methods would involve destroying, not fixing, his city. Like his father, he's a philanthropist who believes that there are good people willing to do good if only they had a beacon of light to guide them. Batman IS that symbol of light. Which is why the Dark Knight is called the Dark Knight, and the sequel is titled The Dark Knight Rises. He has to fall down in order to pick himself up.
Did Joker win the battle for Gotham's soul at the end of TDK? No. Did he manage to bring a better class of criminal to Gotham like he wanted? No. So he didn't win. His victory was covered up with a lie.
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"
It may have been based on a lie, but they still stopped the Joker from winning.
Exactly and as the thread asks "in hindsight what changes would YOU do", it would be that the lie that was created at then of TDK would have actually meant something when it was exposed. Just seems odd to have lead an audience into believing how important the coverup was and then have it mean so little in the sequel.
Joker would have won in the eyes of the public if Batman didn't take the blame. Not only was Batman trying to keep Harvey's work intact but in many ways, when he looks down at Harvey's body and says "but the Joker cannot win," it's his way of not allowing the Joker's plan of corrupting Dent to work. It's not just about keeping the criminals in jail, it also seems to be about Batman thwarting the Joker's plan.
I think they created a really complex ending with TDK and I was really wondering how they would deal with the ramifications of people finding out about the lie.I think they chose to avoid a lot of it by doing the time jump. Strangely, Gordon still seems to be commissioner by TDKR's end and we get no insight into what happened to him. Was he reprimanded at all? Maybe nothing happened because there is no proof. I wonder if it's the city turning a blind eye. No matter what the goal, Gordon became corrupt as well and it kind of undermines Batman's seeming interest in preserving faith in the justice system. In fact, most of TDKR undermines the ideas of TDK with Blake's story arc.
Everything in Rises is about the consequences of the past , Bruce's sacrifices , and his ability to overcome them.
In Hindsight, Bruce should of had the same resolve as many other superheroes[Like spider-man,Kyle Rayner etc] after his "true love" was killed, and kept on fighting no matter what. But after the dark knight, he gave up.
He showed that resolve in TDK, when he quickly got back on the saddle and stopped The Joker. He only quit on being Batman once he was no longer needed in Gotham. But ultimately he was just waiting for things to go bad again so he'd have a purpose.
Incorrect, you cant fix a city in one night, it took years for the cops and the outlandish "dent act" to do its job. Batman could of helped out, and as long as rapists,murders, and evil exists in gotham Batman will always be "needed". A upsurd fantasy act cant stop muggers,murders,rapes,stealing and etc. It was those "small crimes" that cost Bruce his parents.
It was made clear in Batman Begins that this version of Batman didn't intend be there forever to beat up every single criminal he could get his hands on, but had the more tangible ambition to "show Gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt" aka, get rid of the mob's stranglehold on the city. By the end of TDK, not only is Gotham well on its way to achieving that, but he's destroyed all meaning his symbol had in an effort to make a martyr out of Dent.
Anyway, even if you don't like the Dent Act as a plot device, that doesn't change the fact that it's the reason the writers provided for why he stopped being Batman. It doesn't have to do with Rachel's death. The point is that things like Rachel's death do weigh upon him, but he's stripped of his usual method of dealing with pain- being Batman, which gave him purpose. That is not the same as "I am sad, I quit."
I never got the sense from the film that it was anything to do with Rachel, his quitting, it was about him being injured, about the cops being able to handle the job from now on, *and* the fact that the cops where after him now, as much of their resources would be spent on chasing him down, instead of the real crooks. Like what happened in TDKR, when Bane got away due to this.
and look at what happened in BB when they were after him just for being a vigilante, the cops were flipping out over the pancaked cop cars(poetry), so what would it be like night after night going after harvey's killer?
As Batman says in Year One, if he has to fight both the cops and the crooks, it's not a realistic proposition to do the job like that for long. Same goes here, as events in BB show us, he had to get some cops on his side, not possible after TDK.
Either way he quit, and then took the fall for Dents terror spree. Why so people would keep "believing in Harvey dent", which is truly heroic on his part, but logically he must of known a man Like Bane would come along and expose the harsh truth.
Being forced into retirement doesn't equal quitting. When an athlete can no longer compete with the cream of the crop and they have to retire; that does not equal quitting. What is so hard to understand about that concept?
Anyways, I really would have liked for a darker turn during Bane's reign. Just take the montage that we see, and build, build, build on top of that. Keep everything with Bruce in the prison the exact same. The pit scenes were some of the best stuff in the film.
Extend the final battle a little bit. See a bit more of what we saw in the spy footage of Batman plowing through 4-5 thugs before getting to Bane.
But yeah, IMAX limitations is pretty much the main issue with anything I had a problem with, which isn't much anyways.
In my original post, I referred to what was setup by Nolan with having Dent's death and the cover up by Batman and Gordon being the focus of the third film was what I would have wanted changed in hindsight.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Things I'd change in "The Dark Knight Rises":
1. I would've liked to see the first fight between Batman and Bane happen in the Batcave in front of Alfred. I think it would've been a very powerful scene to show the horror on Alfred's face as he watches the boy he was supposed to protect, get his back broken. And then they drag Bruce away from Alfred.
2. The 2nd fight to be longer and more intense. As soon as it was getting good, it ended. I would've like to see it start out in the streets and end in the sewers.
3. I would've eliminated the "LOS" completely from the movie. I know a lot of people think that the "League of Shadows" returned, but after watching multiple times, I don't think Talia and Bane ran the "actual" "League of Shadows". Just take a look at how they were trained ninjas in BB, but in "....Rises" they were only good with guns. I think they were just a bunch of mercenaries recruited by Bane and Talia. In fact, as it was stated in "....Rises", Bane was excommunicated before Ra's recruited Bruce. Why would the remaining members let these too run the show all of the sudden?
4. Eliminate Talia. As stated in BB, Ra's says "...my wife and daughter were taken from me." They should've left it alone.
5. Bane was the one who climbed out of the pit.
6. If I'm not mistaken Zsasz was still on the loose in "BB" and was never mentioned of being caught in the next two movies. I'd would've liked to see a fight scene between them.
That's all I can think of right now.
I like all of those, especially the part about Zsasz. I've always loved the idea if him in a film, as a subplot, Batman trying to catch him. It'd be very dark and show his detective side more.
I particularly like points 3 and 4.
Thanks. I forgot to add in my previous post, there's been some really good ideas on what they'd do if they were in the director's chair or writing the film.
And that was the who idea of this thread. But some people are taking it way too personal like were taking a swipe at Nolan and Goyer.
Most of us are grateful that WB even rebooted this series after the debacle they call "Batman and Robin".
Sure, this trilogy is perfect. But it's pretty damn good.
Here's some more changes I would've suggested if I were apart of the project:
Introduce Talia in BB when Ra's recruits him. They both share a strong attraction to each other which makes Bruce's decision to go against Ra's that much more difficult.
Make Batman more like a ninja. For instance, when he stopped the shipment and knocked out Falcone. Also, when he picks off Crane's men one by one until he interrogates Crane. They got away from that in TDK and TDKR.
Different fighting style. I understand the fighting style used as Ra's puts it briefly in BB, "....this isn't a dance". But the "dance" looks better.
Cut scenes during important fights. For instance, when Batman was fighting the real "LOS" and Ras Al Ghul in BB. It was really frustrating. Batman and Bane's first fight was perfect in the sense that there were no cut scenes. Just a straight up brawl with no interruptions.
We hardly saw any gadgets in TDKR.
Not enough screen time for iconic Villans. By the time we knew about Ra's Al Ghul, he died. When Harvey became Two Face, he died. When Talia revealed herself, she died. Scarecrow and Zsasz were underutilized and could've been really creepy.
Scarecrows hallucinations more creepy. There were rumors that there was supposed to be this "stage 2" of scarecrow hallucinations, but we never saw it. Some people say they saw the mask they were going to use, but Nolan denies it.
If Nolan and his team knew that the "LOS" were going to return for the final film, Scarecrow should of been the main Villan in BB and Ra's/Talia Al Ghul should've been the main villians in the final film. Scarecrow could've easily pulled off what Ra's did by releasing the gas among Gotham City. Also, I would've tried for 4 films instead of 3. The main Villans in each film: BB - Scarecrow, TDK - Joker, TDR - Bane, Two-Face, 4th Batman Film - "LOS" or Ra's and Talia. Then sprinkle in minor villans in each film.
That's it for now.
While Gordon did mention that the inmates are on the loose, nothing's really confirmed that it includes Zsaz who was knocked out by Batman.
- Introduce a younger (to the point that we might buy that Bruce doesn't recognize her in TDKR) Talia to some degree in Begins during Bruce's training, they could have a brief glimpse at romance, but it falls apart when Bruce rebels against the League, her fate left a mystery.
- Have Bruce also learning other skills, such as escape artistry, during his travels.
- Cut out the 'I'm Batman.' line.
The Dark Knight:
- Keep Katie Holmes on for tone and consistency's sake.
- Keep Rachel's character warm and sad, not cold and arrogant. I know people who were -glad- when she died because she annoyed them so much in TDK and they couldn't understand what Bruce saw in her.
- Flesh out Rachel's personal relationship with Harvey instead of making them seem so distant and like they can't ever stop playing lawyer around each other. I didn't buy that they were in love. It was very scarce. This would add gravity to her death, and to Harvey going insane.
- Keep the neck of the cowl bulky, but still segmented for turning, so it doesn't look as bobbleheady and the 'Batman silhouette' is preserved and still intimidating.
(This might also help Bale breathe better so he can pull off the same quality of Bat-voice that he did in Begins, but hasn't since the suit changed. It would also keep him from making that gaspy "D:" face he seems to do ever since too.)
- Make the bat emblem on the chest more prominent, as it was in Begins.
- Make Batman more mysterious. More iconic shots, cape flowing. Phantom of the Opera.
- Darken the interrogation room to resemble the scene in The Killing Joke. Edgy bright light is there, but only in the center, so we have a lot more focus, atmosphere, and uneasiness, makes it more terrifying when Batman suddenly grabs the Joker up, or when Joker grins or laughs.
- Develop Bruce's relationship with Harvey a touch more, so that they're at least personal friends instead of just Bruce donating to him.
- More use of smoke bombs and the like.
- Why didn't he cut the lights at the party scene when Joker has Rachel? Would have been way cooler.
- Improve the fight scenes. The vs. Ra's and vs. Bane scenes in the other movies were intense, bring it up to that quality.
Or hell, when there are multiple thugs, mirror the intense camerawork and ferocity of the first fight in Begins where Bruce is fighting the criminals in the mud when he's in prison. More stuff like the docks fight would've been fine too.
- More stealth, less waltzing straight into wide open, fully lit places.
The Dark Knight Rises:
- More Crane, let Scarecrow really go nuts like he deserves to.
- Pull from Knightfall a bit more to have Bane figuring out who Batman is through his own ingenuity, and then breaking him when he's worn down by Bane's trials. More Scarecrow is the ticket to that.
- More Gordon. One of the valves of the heart of BB and TDK was the strong camaraderie between Gordon and Batman. Ball fumbled here.
- Revise the identity reveal to Gordon to more mirror the scene in No Man's Land. Keep them alone. It was just a better moment.
- Flesh Bane out. Also, give him a philosophical point to make.
- Base Bane's motivation and plan more on the League of Shadows' point of view and Bane's personal sense of justice. Use the truth about Harvey's death to give this a foundation instead of it just being discovered happenstance later on.
- Put a pure chill in Bruce's eyes (he was stunningly smug and unfazed) when he discovers (preferably through Bane telling him and not Alfred telling him) Bane is carrying the torch of the League, and knows what he's done.
- Have him scold Bruce about how Ra's ended up being right in that Batman had to become corrupt to put a band-aid on corruption, how it was all a flimsy lie.
This will really make Bruce feel like a miserable failure while he receives the physical beatdown - which would also add to the believability of Batman approaching him for a one-on-one fist fight in the first place, he would be upset about that, guard down.
Instead, what we got was an arrogant guy who wants to beat up another arrogant guy on his turf. That's an immature kind of Batman. It's been done before (TDK Returns), but it feels very off for the character.
- So make Batman less arrogant and reckless, more controlled and intelligent. There's really no excuse for how he behaved when he found out about Bane, or in the fight against him.
Could use more dialogue like the scene where he gives Harvey an intellectual smackdown after catching his coin in TDK.
- Come up with something more intense and original than 'Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!' for Batman's fake death.
- Batman barely did anything in his career. At least have mention of him doing SOMETHING in the 8 years after TDK so he actually -has- a somewhat substantial career as Batman before he abruptly quits. He can get depressed gradually instead of instantly.
- Flashback (if 8 years REALLY have to pass) of Gordon having to establish an anti-Batman pursuit team and meeting very secretly with Batman. Could make for some brilliant, iconic bonding moments between them. Many scenes in The Animated Series can be used as reference for this (the one I'm thinking of is on a bridge at night). Bullock and Montoya (or their TDK 'counterparts') could be briefly shown during this.
- Speaking of which, would have loved a flashback to what happens immediately after TDK ends, maybe an on-foot chase/battle with the police somewhere like the Narrows, maybe they manage to corner him or something so he can't just use the Batpod. Maybe a construction site for variety. Maybe he gets shot in the leg to reference Year One. Heavy fog and atmosphere. Have Batman snatching them out of the dark, have him pouncing from above. Can we have smoke bombs yet?
- Get rid of Foley and his car chase scene in favor of the above.
- Have Bruce give a damn about his parents, visit their graves, leave roses. Moment of reflection to rekindle the fire in him. Should have been obvious. Would have made the movie far more potent.
- Make the snowy theme FAR more noticeable, frame the emotion of scenes around it. Above scene suggested, Catwoman rooftop scene wouldn't hurt either.
- 'Catch me if you can' with Catwoman was completely skipped. Don't do that.
- Stop making Batman say stupidly obvious and sometimes even corny things. Cut the 'So that's what that feels like' line completely and have Batman turn around, see Selina gone, and take a moment to show him looking off the rooftop alone in silent acknowledgement, the night air teasing his cape around him. You could even make him smirk, if you REALLY have to explain his reaction. That's far more appropriate for the character.
- Batman lives up to the promise of the promotional material and literally leads an army of recruits against Bane's army of recruits, instead of just showing up in the middle of a brawl.
- Bane doesn't attempt to kill Batman with a shotgun. :|
- Catwoman doesn't blow Bane up. :|
- Have Batman use a better initial 'theatricality and deception' against Bane than throwing a few crackle pellets at him as if they were supposed to DO ANYTHING. Embarrassing. This is Batman AT THE EDGE OF RETIREMENT. He knows better.
- More intelligent and detective moments instead of less.
- Bring all fight scenes not against Bane up to the quality of the ones that are against Bane. Seriously.
That's all for now, may think of some more later.