In hindsight what changes would you do

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by DeGenerate10, Nov 11, 2012.

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  1. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    No it's not. Because it's not logical for Batman to be able to win the war on crime. What you listed there? All things I very much wish this franchise would have explored. Because that's some of what's most interesting about Bruce and Batman as a character.

    Those things are things that either Bruce or Batman have done in the comics. But in the comics, as in the real world, certain types of crime don't just vanish because a major organization is taken down.

    There's really no reason it couldn't have elements of both. And the comics have, for a long time. The movies kind of got to that point. Not fully, but they danced around it.

    The "sci fi" problems you speak of...those tend to be criminals he's fighting. They're just more dangerous, freakish criminals. And Batman has an actual strategy in the comics. He fights crime and social injustice on multiple fronts, with multiple tactics, and multiple strategies. He spends his life doing so.

    I think it's missing the point to depict Batman as someone who thinks he can win the war on crime and is naiive about this throughout his career. By the time he's established, he more or less knows he can't win. But he has to fight it nontheless.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  2. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    :applaud
     
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  3. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    :up:

    Not to mention, both approaches perfectly fit their medium like a glove. Yeah, you can do a Bond-like approach to Batman on film but the logistics of pulling it off become trickier and varying levels of quality are inevitable.

    Besides, we had already seen the movie franchise span four films that treated his mission as infinite like the comics. Heck, one of them was called Batman Forever.

    The finite mission approach was fresh, and it felt like we as the audience were rooting for a better society as much as we were rooting for Batman and his allies to stop the villain. It felt more positive in that sense.
     
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  4. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Well-Known Member

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    Most =/= All.

    Batman setting a standard for crime he'll tackle is again, unsympathetic. He didn't have to retire, plenty of horrible crimes are - for lack of a better term - unorganised.


    This brings me on to another urksome detail of TDKR: Gotham city itself. The first 2 films do a good job of depicting a good city crippled by criminals. Rises drops the ball on this because once Bane arrives and drops some generic freedom speeches, the city goes ape-**** crazy.

    We're talking about a major city that had the best handle on crime it's had for decades, and suddenly there's carnage in the streets, and people being sentenced to death by a known pyschopath. Was everyone on crazy pills? Maybe Gordon had some before sending the entire police force into the sewers too. The whole Bane-ruled Gotham section was odd, like a right-wingers' nightmare version of Occupy. I couldn't care a less if Gotham was destroyed by the bomb because the residents were so clearly ******ed. Ras was right.
     
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  5. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, I just think something is lost from the whole "a man who lost his parents as a young child becomes a hero to prevent others from experiencing the type of loss he did" angle when it becomes "young boy becomes a hero to wipe out organized crime and people who experience the type of loss he did because of organized crime, but not because of regular crime".
     
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  6. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    It's widely assuming the rest of the crimes were as big of a deal as muggings only because people like Joe Chill are created because of guys like Falcone.

    And I'll always agree more time should've been spent on the soul of Gotham as TDK dealt with(and I will always disagree that the idea wasn't so involved in BB or not even as much as TDK), but again, the IMAX run time where Nolan tried to cover other areas as well that needed just as much time.

    What regular crime do you think needed to be taken care of?

    Blake even insisted that Gordon and Dent cleaned the streets so well that the GCPD will have to be chasing overdue library books soon.
     
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  7. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I'm all for Batman taking a methodical approach in taking out organised crime, but as the films progressed I feel Nolan lost sight of the personal story in favour of a grand crime saga.

    TDK worked so well because it could focus on the crackdown on the mob through Dent and used the Joker to bring out all of the interesting ideological material in the leads. The third film just isn't as concise. I think there is a strain between allowing the Dent act from the second film to play out, and the need for things to go wrong again for a new story.
     
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  8. Poetic Chaos

    Poetic Chaos Hella fetch.

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    It's not that he didn't care if he died, it's that he wanted to die. That's what Alfred acknowledged. Bruce even says he can't move on because Rachel never had the chance. Alfred knew he was looking for his final exit because of that and thats why he told him the truth.
     
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  9. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    I always viewed it as Bruce not caring if he lived or die, not necessarily wanting to die, although you do raise a point. He did ask Bane why he didn't kill him, so you could be right.
     
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  10. Polaris23

    Polaris23 Well-Known Member

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    It's never more clear than it is in Batman's first fight with Bane that he had a deathwish.
     
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  11. JackWhite

    JackWhite Third Man

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    The deathwish is just scratching the surface with Bruce's mindset going into his first encounter with Bane. Bruce having had Alfred not only leave him because of his obsession to be Batman, but also revealing to him that Rachel was going to marry Harvey and not be with him only added flames to the fire when it came to his mental state prior to that fight.

    Add Bruce losing all of his money and his seat at his fathers company and it's just a recipe for a disaster when you think about what lead to his defeat at the hands of Bane.
     
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  12. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    How? Bruce thought he could take out Bane in seconds and tried to keep up with Bane. Didn't really seem like someone with a deathwish if you ask me.
     
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  13. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I think when he charged at Bane after Bane had bashed his head in, you can kinda see it. Bruce knew he had no chance of winning at that point, it felt like a defiant display of rage to show Bane that he wasn't going down without a fight. So in that sense, I can see him sort of craving that "heroic" death.
     
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  14. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Hrm, yes, maybe in those few seconds, I can agree with that. But for 95% of the fight at least, I didn't see a Batman wanting to die.

    And, and here's a question for anyone who'd wanna answer...now, I understand how living worked thematically for The Dark Knight, but now looking at Heath Ledger having passed away and how The Dark Knight Rises gave us a Bruce Wayne that retired for eight years as Batman, returned and then passed the mantle down to Robin John Blake...do you think The Joker should have instead died, or still fine with the villain living in Nolan's Batverse?
     
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  15. JackWhite

    JackWhite Third Man

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    Nah, I'm fine with him being still alive within the universe Nolan established.
     
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  16. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    There's really nothing in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES that suggests Batman wants to die or fail other than Alfred's suggestion that he might. It's a kind of major element that wasn't handled very well in the film.

    Which, in itself, is a concept so damned silly and ridiculous that it would make Bob Kane himself vomit with rage.

    This. Just because the movies were about Bruce and his personal issues doesn’t mean it was the truly personal story it could have been. Nolan never quite got to the meat of why Batman does what he does beyond “the city needs me”. The whole Wayne legacy thing was just sort of forgotten about as a motivation after BATMAN BEGINS, and really only paid lip service even then. He just kind of missed the point, and the aspect that really sets Batman apart from most superheroes (other than being human).
     
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  17. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    So it's really just an opinion of just not liking what Nolan did with his Batman in only taking out mobs that, in Nolan's universe, is the reason for really any other crime. I can take that if it's just not your thing.
     
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  18. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Well, given that Alfred knows Bruce probably better than Bruce knows himself, I think what he said had some weight to it. Wanting to die isn't exactly what I would call it. I think Bruce was okay with dying if it came to it. He had a complete absence of fear when it came to death. And that was always the case IMO when he was Batman. He put his life on the line every single night he went out as Batman. And also, when Bane tells Bruce that he welcomes death...that's an assessment from someone who fought the man, which goes back to what I was saying about how Bruce charged at him hopelessly at the end of the fight.

    What we have in TDKR is someone who is in worse shape physically and more vulnerable due to age, and with nothing really left to live for...so you can see how it'd be a slippery slope into him almost craving to die a warrior's death on some deeper level. It's like in Dark Knight Returns, when Carrie asks Bruce if he's going to die, and Bruce kind of nonchalantly says, "I figure I will." I know the context is totally different, but I think we see some of that same callousness towards life/death from Bruce in Rises. He's just kind of whatever about it, which is why Alfred is worried about him.
     
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  19. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    Gonna put this simply: The 'deathwish' is conjecture. Unsubstantied, and even directly contradictory to Bruce's stated motives and actions.
     
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  20. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Would you agree though that he was at least ambivalent and callous towards it? The whole point of his escape from the pit was to get back in touch with that primal fear of dying, which is what finally gave him the will to live again in the end.

    In order for that to have any meaning, it's almost necessary to consider the fact that Bruce was pretty much okay with death. Like Bane says, "You don't fear death...you welcome it." Why shouldn't that be true? It gives context to what Bruce has to overcome in the film.
     
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  21. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Well-Known Member

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    It's an opinion that Nolan lost sight of the Batman character when he wrote TDKR. It's also an opinion that for a director who prides himself on realism, Nolan really half-assed the depiction of Gotham city in TDKR.

    Both of these things were handled pretty damn well in the preceding films. Shame he dropped the ball.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  22. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    If that's your opinion, blame Goyer and Jonathan Nolan as well. This was not a one man show when it came to the writing. And don't focus the blame to TDKR either, when that was the interpretation they were going with since Batman Begins. It's all right there in the dialogue on the plane between Bruce and Alfred. And all throughout TDK he was looking to pass the torch to Dent and move on.

    TDKR simply stayed consistent with this interpretation rather than branching off into a territory that was more similar to the comics, which is I think what a lot of people were expecting.
     
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  23. Mad Love

    Mad Love The Future of Justice

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    Perhaps people thought that because the Joker and Two-Face worked so well to match the comics and Nolan's world.
     
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  24. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    The whole "death wish" thing is just one more thing the film introduced and then sort of never touched on again. The only time it ever really comes up is when Alfred mentions the possibility. That's it.
     
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  25. JackWhite

    JackWhite Third Man

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    What about during Bruce's time in the pit? It's pretty integral with him finally being able to climb out because he regained that fear in his heart again.
     
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