ironman/captain america - casualties of war...thoughts?? (possible spoilers)

Union Jack

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I really enjoyed this comic alot...it also heplped me understand tony's thought process alot more..it actually makes sense in what he says.
it just doesnt make sense him hiring bullseye,mad jack,venom and the green goblin to do work for him.

It was good to see a few flash backs...but i did think the fight between stark and rogers was a bit bad...i mean cap shouldve beaten tony easy without his armour on...unless he was holding back of course...

what were your thoughts on this issue??
 
They need to put the writer on more titles.
 
I thought that the extremis “skin” was probably protecting Tony a little bit, helping him go up against Cap


Also, as an aside, this post comes to you from a Nintendo Wii. :)
 
I thought it was a pretty good issue, which surprised me, since I expected a suckfest. It was honestly quite good, and really serves to delve into the character's ideas here.
 
What was Stark's reasoning, what did he say in this issue about why he is doing this?

Also, I wasn't sure about the art. I had to choose between two comics so I didn't get it. maybe I will now.
 
I liked it, a nice journey through their history together.
 
Great read. The War Crimes one shot was damn good as well.
 
I read both and honestly felt that The Cap/IM special did a better job of humanizing the Pro-Reg side, while War Crimes did a decent job of villanizing the Anti-Reg side. I guess it's basically a balance between which oyu'd rather see if you have to choose between the two, but honestly, I think they should have both been included with the original shipping list, as they both do a great job deepening the conflict.
 
I hated War Crimes simply for having both Iron Man and Cap throwing in with Wilson Fisk.
 
*shrugs* Ironman's a scumbag and Captain America is a soldier. He's at war.
Look at what he did the last time he was at war. He dragged a fifteen year old boy into the toughest most important battles of world war two with no protection aside from a single shield.

I distinctly remember Cap standing over a crate of grenades hurling them into crowds of people. I dont see playing two crime lords and a war monger against each other as any worse.
 
Vanguard07 said:
*shrugs* Ironman's a scumbag and Captain America is a soldier. He's at war.
Look at what he did the last time he was at war. He dragged a fifteen year old boy into the toughest most important battles of world war two with no protection aside from a single shield.


First of all; WWII wasnt the last war Cap fought in. He went on a few missions in Vietnam, not to mention his involvement in the Kree/Skrull War, Galactic Storm, and two seperate Atlantean invasions....

Secondly; Cap didnt "drag" Bucky anywhere. Barnes was going to fight with or without Cap and The Invaders by his side. It was his choice.

Back on topic. GREAT issue. I was floored by all the continuity, which was handled masterfully, imo.

A very cool addition to Civil War. :up:
 
I guess I'm mixed about this.

I know that Cap gave his word to Tony to play this meeting clean. BUT.....he had him right there! the mastermind behind the gulag.....the ring leader.....without his armor on!!

Can you imagine how Spidey or Luke Cage would feel if they knew about this meeting?? They'd be like, "YOU HAD HIM AND LET HIM GO??????" :cmad: The guy causing us the grief?? The guy that killed Bill Foster????

I don't know...this just didn't make sense.....
 
Um, what exactly is he supposed to do, like Tony said, if he didnt do it, Reed or Hank, or someone else wouldve taken up the cause, or worse, Project Wideawake would be implemented.
 
That, and y'know, the whole honor thing. You don't capture the guy holding the white flag.
 
No see, Memphis/Celldog wants Cap to kick his ass and kill him, because thats what ultimate Cap would do.

"You think this A on my forehead stands for *******?"

"Uh, yeah."
 
Memphis Slim said:
I guess I'm mixed about this.

I know that Cap gave his word to Tony to play this meeting clean. BUT.....he had him right there! the mastermind behind the gulag.....the ring leader.....without his armor on!!

Can you imagine how Spidey or Luke Cage would feel if they knew about this meeting?? They'd be like, "YOU HAD HIM AND LET HIM GO??????" :cmad: The guy causing us the grief?? The guy that killed Bill Foster????

I don't know...this just didn't make sense.....

Bill foster killed hismelf, who the hell attcks thor clone or not like that.
 
Darthphere said:
Um, what exactly is he supposed to do, like Tony said, if he didnt do it, Reed or Hank, or someone else wouldve taken up the cause, or worse, Project Wideawake would be implemented.


And maybe not......Reed's heart doesn't seem to be as far gone as Tony's. Who knows if he would really pick up after Tony?? Reed still has a family that has been torn apart by this. He may see Tony's capture as a way to end it. Plus...I think Pym is the traitor.

So who's left?

Project Wideawake?? As they say....knowing is half the battle. Since Tony has spilled the beans to Cap, he'd put something together to deal with it.
 
Memphis Slim said:
And maybe not......Reed's heart doesn't seem to be as far gone as Tony's. Who knows if he would really pick up after Tony?? Reed still has a family that has been torn apart by this. He may see Tony's capture as a way to end it. Plus...I think Pym is the traitor.

So who's left?

Project Wideawake?? As they say....knowing is half the battle. Since Tony has spilled the beans to Cap, he'd put something together to deal with it.


Do you even read comics, really? Anybody couldve picked it up. Pro-Regs have the numbers, and it doesnt even have to be a superhero taking over the effort. You ever hear of Henry Gyrich? Bolivar Trask? Please, Tony is right, if he joined up with Cap, theres always someone else to take up the cause, why do you think Communism still lives til this day? Because someone dies, someone else is there to take his place. Now, what exactly should Cap had done, you tell me since you have all the "right" answers.
 
Darthphere said:
Do you even read comics, really? Anybody couldve picked it up. Pro-Regs have the numbers, and it doesnt even have to be a superhero taking over the effort. You ever hear of Henry Gyrich? Bolivar Trask? Please, Tony is right, if he joined up with Cap, theres always someone else to take up the cause, why do you think Communism still lives til this day? Because someone dies, someone else is there to take his place. Now, what exactly should Cap had done, you tell me since you have all the "right" answers.

Yes I read comics.......really. I'm obviously discussing my opinions about this story.
Do you ever come down off of jerk mountain?

But Stark is the linch pin. Trask and others can't compare to Tony. He creates all the tech that SHIELD uses. Plus if Reed bows out.....most of their brain power has taken a hit.
 
Memphis Slim said:
Yes I read comics.......really. I'm obviously discussing my opinions about this story.
Do you ever come down off of jerk mountain?

But Stark is the linch pin. Trask and others can't compare to Tony. He creates all the tech that SHIELD uses. Plus if Reed bows out.....most of their brain power has taken a hit.


You ever heard the word martyr? Tony gets taken out, his name, his influence becomes more powerful than ever. Its sad how much you don't know of this world and how it works.

You still have yet to answer the question, what should have Cap done to Tony at the meeting, you tell me. Please, I'm begging you like reed Richards begged Maria Hill.
 
Just pasting from the B/T thread:

Dread said:
IRON MAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA: CASUALTIES OF WAR: One of two CW one-shots this week, although this was the better and argueably the best thing I read from Marvel this week. And the irony is that it's a great story that if you get too critical, doesn't make sense. The gist of it is that sometime after CW #5, Iron Man radios Cap on some handy "super secret Avenger line" that went unused for years, just to lure him to the old, destroyed Mansion so they can hash out where they stand, both in terms of the war, their philosophies, and above all their friendship, which until now most CW writers pretended was a convience at best. Tactically and logically, this makes no bloody sense. There is no way you can seriously buy that in the midst of the civil war after issue #5 and some of the last tie-in's that Cap & Iron Man would just stop, meet & talk, and not set a trap for the other. IM could have simply brought a few allies and ended the war in an hour. And Cap was just foolish not to bring back-up, considering how quickly IM and the fed heroes usually were to cut off escape avenues. One could have bought it had they chatted up a few months ago, but it seems hard to swallow now. HOWEVER, and this is a big "however", what saves the story is the fact that we really haven't seen these two talk like HUMAN BEINGS for ages now, nor seen a story that acknowledges that they once were honest-to-goodness FRIENDS (hell, read some issues of Millar's CW and you get the impression that Steve & Tony always hated each other deep down). The level of continuity is incredible, having both characters bring up arguements and flashbacks from way back into the 60's to now, with a checklist in the back in place of footnotes. Perhaps unsurprisingly, such a powerful dialogue between the two leaders of the CW is written by NONE of the core CW writers (Millar, Bendis, JMS, or Jenkins) and instead by Christos N. Gage, who I have never heard from before. True, the story rehashes some of the debates about both sides of CW that we have heard before, but both Cap & Iron Man do it well, using logical "life" evidence to back themselves, so it doesn't seem the same. Plus, neither character is simply played crudely; Iron Man isn't depicted as evil & manipulative, and Capt. America isn't glaringly stubborn or thuggish. They come off as what Marvel has tried to make them be; former friends who find themselves at a philosophical crossroads and now are begrudging enemies. They explore both of their demons, the lives of other heroes, and so on. It really is a conversation that in the hands of some writers would come off as boring and repetitive, but Gage gets it right. Haun's art is also top notch, and amazingly none of the creators are creditted on the cover, usually a sign of being small fish. Cheung's covers rock, and I got the Cap one. The finale has them fighting in a way that parallels an old sparing match, and yes, it doesn't make logical sense for IM to just let Cap go, and for both of them to just sigh, walk off, and go off to trying to kill each other's pawns. But y'know what? This story gives "realism" the finger in the name of actual characterization, and it's about damned time some Marvel books did that again. We're not here for realism. We're here because we love the characters. It may be a one-shot, but it is essential CW reading; admittedly, it probably would have made sense had it come out sooner, although Bill Foster's death from CW #4 was a major plot point. And there is a minor quibble where Iron Man claims the act doesn't require the registered heroes to "go public", when I believe BLACK PANTHER made it seem like that is precisely what the law now says. Of course, Hudlin maybe missed some memo's for all I know. Gage even acknowledges how stories have changed since the 60's as Cap & Iron Man note how a past altercation cleared up after a single cheesy exchange; other writers might have been pompus about it, but Gage avoids it. A solid read for me. And Marvel didn't even overprice it!
 
Darthphere said:
You ever heard the word martyr? Tony gets taken out, his name, his influence becomes more powerful than ever. Its sad how much you don't know of this world and how it works.

You still have yet to answer the question, what should have Cap done to Tony at the meeting, you tell me. Please, I'm begging you like reed Richards begged Maria Hill.

Captured him and brought him in.
Martyr??? Tony?? I don't think Stark inspires people that way. I don't think people really like him. With exception of Happy and Pepper, I think tony has a Donald Trump type of image. The cold capitalist pig. Rich boy. Playa'...manipulator. You never feel sorry for him because you know he's hurt some people to get where he is. Regardless of the good he's done, that label sticks. Look at what he did to Parker.

Cap would be a martyr. Not Stark.
 
Dread said:
Just pasting from the B/T thread:

Nice wrtitng....you sure have a lot of time on your hands or you're the fastest typer in the world.
 
Brought him in where? Do what with him? What exactly would be the purpose of this? What makes them any better than Stark at that point? What would they accomplish?

And you'd be surprised by the people who become martyrs because the fact is, Tony Stark has one thing Cap doesnt have at the moment, the American people.
 

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