BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[Loki882]

Again, I see no evidence yet that Superman won't be the focus, just paranoid fans jumping to conclusions. We know that Batman will be in the movie, we don't know what his role will be or the size of his role, or if any of his supporting cast will appear at all. People seriously need to stop jumping the gun.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

What worries me:
Zack and David are writing it
It hasn't been written yet
They don't know who will be Batman
Yet this is supposed to be released in less than 2yrs.

 

[JangoNate]

Again, I see no evidence yet that Superman won't be the focus, just paranoid fans jumping to conclusions. We know that Batman will be in the movie, we don't know what his role will be or the size of his role, or if any of his supporting cast will appear at all. People seriously need to stop jumping the gun.

This times a billion.

It will be nice when we start to get our first bits of real information. Right now we just have speculation and a few of us here that are trying to prove that their paranoid delusions are actually reality.

 

[Herolee10]

If anything, it's really Snyder's and Goyer's ability to handle these two characters that worries people that most since the two had issues handling just one of them in MOS.

 

[Tobias]

If anything, it's really Snyder's and Goyer's ability to handle these two characters that worries people that most since the two had issues handling just one of them in MOS.

Yeah. Hope springs eternal - maybe we'll catch a break and this film will collapse in pre-production.

Snyder and Goyer may have killed the Superman franchise for the foreseeable future with MOS and it'd be doubly bad if they kill the emerging new Batman franchise with Batman vs Superman.

 

[Jordacar]

Posted this in another thread, figured it was fairly relevant to this discussion:

I'm sure it's been discussed before, but the reason Avengers was even possible was that Marvel was able to not only focus on producing one specific genre of movies, but also operate outside of the normal studio system that's used to cranking out one superhero movie at a time and waiting for the results. And now WB wants to do the same thing, but they're still stuck on the old studio machine that in a decade cranked out 3 amazing Batman movies and one totally useless Superman movie in between.

Anyway, awhile ago a I made this video:
Giving my thoughts on a game plan for the DC movies that actually has a chance of, y'know, working. Basically, give us Wonder Woman, Flash/GL, and Batman/Superman in quick succession, then we're ready for Justice League.

Since then, I got to thinking about all the scripts WB keeps throwing around for these projects and seemingly getting nowhere. Given what happened with Green Lantern vs what happened with Avengers, I get the sense that these movies work better with fewer writers and a more centralized creative vision, rather than a bunch of different writers watering down the material until it's all derivative and "safe".

With that, here are the screenwriters that I would assign to each of those movies:

Jane Espenson for Wonder Woman. Not only does she come from the Joss Whedon circle of geniuses, but I'd argue that she's even more qualified for this assignment than Joss ever was. Take a quick look at that filmography; Buffy, Once Upon a Time, Warehouse 13, Battlestar Galactica, Torchwood, even an ep of Game of Thrones ("The Golden Crown"). WW would be the perfect culmination of those works. She writes strong women with agency, she understands magic, and she knows how to keep everything fun without sacrificing the emotional core of the story.

For The Brave and the Bold (Flash/GL team-up), Geoff Johns. I wouldn't normally suggest a comic writer for a movie, even one as prolific as Johns, but if Johns only ever writes one feature-film screenplay, this is the one he'd be perfect for. He had historic runs on both GL and Flash; he knows those guys back-to-front. Elevating the material above the standard-issue drivel we got in the GL movie would be a synch for him. He's written a number of TV episodes going all the way back to "Blade: The Series", and more recently he penned episodes of "Smallville" and "Arrow". Good ones too. Plus there's that whole interning with Richard Donner way back when he was just starting out.

As for World's Finest (Superman/Batman), David Goyer can handle it. While I really wish things could've been spread out more, I really thought Man of Steel was still well put-together for having to smash together at least two movies worth of mythology into one. Either way, since it's a direct sequel to MoS, and Goyer's written for both characters on film now, I'm actually confident that he's got this and I'm interested to see what he does with it next. I'm more concerned with WB overthinking the story and trying to rope in the Nolan films somehow, when this would be a good time to keep things simple and look toward the future.

It might also be good to throw in another writer who works on all three plus JL, helping to tie things together and make sure everything is taking place in the same world.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

If anything, it's really Snyder's and Goyer's ability to handle these two characters that worries people that most since the two had issues handling just one of them in MOS.

I'm oddly not worried about Batman. Just avoid the Miller extremes (in particular the AllStar ones, and parts of TDKR), and have Batman as a non-deadly detective/strategist who knows good martial arts. Since his athleticism is a given (Gym Jones and whatnot) and Zack tends to have good martial arts/street fighting (Rorshach vs the police is how Batman should fight) I'm not too worried. Also, the costume will probably be really good.

Since the number one criticism of Bale's Batman tends to be his voice/smartness, I think they might OVERCOMPENSATE by having Batman be one step ahead of everyone. If they can avoid doing that, I'd be fine with it.

Now, Goyer must avoid retreading his own Batman. That'd be hard to do.

Also, the Bruce Wayne aspect doesn't have to be in there much. There are a lot of stories where Batman is just in the suit.

As for casting. I'm not worried at all. NOT at all.

Snyder doesn't care about star power. He wants someone who can command the screen.
ht

Now for Superman. I'm worried. I'm worried that they won't be able to BUILD from MOS, that it will feel like a stand-alone more than a true sequel, that a true sequel may not happen, that Superman will come across as dumb, weak, or both to prop up Batman.

Also the time committed to both might create a narrative that feels like a shared movie, when Clark NEEDS to have a movie mostly to himself in order to develop as a character in a focused manner.

Also they should be friends near the end, or at least ALLIES. No VS stuff for the longterm, and no Batman beating Superman.

Every effort to make Superman look cool will have gone to waste if that happens.

 

[jonathancrane]

My concerns with the film:

-Goyer humor. As seen in Man of Steel, it serves as a black hole to the film, draining all of the artistic, intellectual, and emotional vibrancy from the scenes.
-Frank Miller influence. There's been a debate about what it means that Snyder talked with him; my chief concern is that Snyder avoids tapping into TDKR, TDKSA, All-Star and so on.
-Villain. As long as it is not Luthor, I am happy/

 

[LordofhouseEl]

My big dread is Goyer, his a hack when it comes to penning scripts and got lucky working with a talent like Nolan whose coattail he rode for years. He should be placed in the role of ideas man, to be honest I am done with his Batman.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Goyer for ideas. Someone else for dialog, who knows plot structure like the back of his hand.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Goyer for ideas. Someone else for dialog, who knows plot structure like the back of his hand.

Mark my words if Goyer goes unchecked this movie will bomb in so many ways, Snyder doesn't have the talent to fix Goyer damages he will just run with Goyers terrible dialogue and incoherent script. Not a good combo between the two. This is Goyer last meal ticket because once this film bombs (and trust me it will if he goes unchecked) WB will drop him so fast despite his Previous résumé which they will attribute to Nolan.

 

[JangoNate]

Yeah. Hope springs eternal - maybe we'll catch a break and this film will collapse in pre-production.

Snyder and Goyer may have killed the Superman franchise for the foreseeable future with MOS and it'd be doubly bad if they kill the emerging new Batman franchise with Batman vs Superman.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone who hopes this is a true fan of the character or the genre, because something like that could destroy it's chances as a film franchise for a long time.

Why is it so hard to hope that the planets align and the film ends up being terrific.

MOS revived Superman for me and all of my friends who have seen it. I trust that Goyer and Snyder will work their butts off to give us a good film. I trust them, because it's all on them. And if it ends up like MOS did, I know I'll, at least be very happy. Sorry for those that didn't like it.

 

[Tobias]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone who hopes this is a true fan of the character or the genre, because something like that could destroy it's chances as a film franchise for a long time.

Why is it so hard to hope that the planets align and the film ends up being terrific.

MOS revived Superman for me and all of my friends who have seen it. I trust that Goyer and Snyder will work their butts off to give us a good film. I trust them, because it's all on them. And if it ends up like MOS did, I know I'll, at least be very happy. Sorry for those that didn't like it.

I should have been clearer in what I wrote.

The starting point is that in 2015 AV2 is expected to do 2 billion and SW maybe well north of 1 billion. That puts huge pressure on WF to do well north of a billion. If WB expected a billion from MOS just imagine what they will expect from WF.

The project is rushed - less than 2 years away and Batman hasn't been cast and the script is being written as we speak. This film does not have to come out in 2015.

My point is that running into issues with WF could be a good thing if it results in a delay in release. I know everyone thinks plunk Batman in a film and it guaranteed to make well more than a billion. I don't buy that assumption.

The whole point of WF is supposedly to turn around a do JL right after and then give Flash, WW and GL solo franchises. That is a fanboy's wet dream and to get there WF has to be a huge hit.

 

[third]

the only dread i feel comes from the wb camp - they have no idea how to make a comic book movie if it were up to them we'd all get batman and robin and green lantern

 

[Mysteryman]

I should have been clearer in what I wrote.

The starting point is that in 2015 AV2 is expected to do 2 billion and SW maybe well north of 1 billion. That puts huge pressure on WF to do well north of a billion. If WB expected a billion from MOS just imagine what they will expect from WF.

The project is rushed - less than 2 years away and Batman hasn't been cast and the script is being written as we speak. This film does not have to come out in 2015.

My point is that running into issues with WF could be a good thing if it results in a delay in release. I know everyone thinks plunk Batman in a film and it guaranteed to make well more than a billion. I don't buy that assumption.

The whole point of WF is supposedly to turn around a do JL right after and then give Flash, WW and GL solo franchises. That is a fanboy's wet dream and to get there WF has to be a huge hit.

It unlikey that they would cast Batman in a litte over 30 days .
Sequels are not ready made .

 

[Loki882]

The humor in MOS worked fine, and it wasn't overly cheesy like in the other films. I'm sorry, but arguing that a Snyder/Goyer film would bomb is kind of hard to swallow considering that MOS didn't bomb. If anything, this movie will be MORE successful since it has Batman. Also, Lex will work fine if they give us a different Lex from the previous films (which Snyder has all but confirmed already).

 

[Tobias]

2015 is shaping up to be the most competitive year in film history with a slew of remakes and sequels of previously highly successful films.

This is what WF will be up against. From a business sense and given that WB wanted another CBM film for 2015 at any cost, I think they had no choice but to include Batman to give the film something unique.

Not sure of the dates for release and all of these films are not coming out in summer 2015 - some will be earlier in the year and some later. The list is not complete either but this gives you an idea of the stakes in 2015.

A lot are coming out over the summer and its going to be a brutal battle at the BO in a scant 2 years from now.

- Avengers: Age of Ultron
- Ant Man
- Star Wars Episode VII
- Jurassic Park IV
- WarCraft
- James Bond 24
- Pirates Of The Caribbean 5
- Terminator
- Independence Day 2
- Hunger Games: Mocking Jay Part 2
- Finding Dory
- Assassin’s Creed
- Fantastic Four
- Inferno (Da Vinci Code 3)
- Kung Fu Panda 3
- Smurfs 3
- Alvin and the Chipmunks 4
- Cinderella

 

[regwec]

I am usually the last to accuse fans of "whining" and "crying", but the tone of some of the posts in this thread is absurd. It all seems to stem from some kind of deep-rooted fear that Superman is going to be upstaged. Well, if you are a Superman fan, you should have a degree of confidence that the character has sufficient appeal for that not to happen.

To some extent, I think us nerds are spoiled nowadays. I remember being a twelve year old LOTR fanatic in the mid-90s, praying for a movie adaptation and only vaguely anticipating it would ever be much good. These days, studios are at pains to spoon feed you straight back everything you say you like. But the moaning will never end.

 

[Tobias]

I am usually the last to accuse fans of "whining" and "crying", but the tone of some of the posts in this thread is absurd. It all seems to stem from some kind of deep-rooted fear that Superman is going to be upstaged. Well, if you are a Superman fan, you should have a degree of confidence that the character has sufficient appeal for that not to happen.

To some extent, I think us nerds are spoiled nowadays. I remember being a twelve year old LOTR fanatic in the mid-90s, praying for a movie adaptation and only vaguely anticipating it would ever be much good. These days, studios are at pains to spoon feed you straight back everything you say you like. But the moaning will never end.

I think Superman fans are worried not necessarily because they don't have confidence in Superman but in how this project was announced.

Snyder introduced the "sequel" by having a quote read from Miller's TDKR. And he supposedly consulted with Miller. Lee has said he can't wait to see one of his favorite comic stories, Miller's TDKR, come to life on the big screen. Superman was treated as a stooge of the government in TDKR and as not the brightest bulb around.

Legitimate cause for concern.

 

[regwec]

Who is "Lee" in this?

 

[Tobias]

Who is "Lee" in this?

Stan Lee.

 

[Loki882]

I think that some people are overlooking another possibility. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that they do adapt TDKR, that doesn't mean that it will be a 100% panel for panel translation of the comic. Adaptations are just that, adaptations. They take the basic idea of a comic storyline (in this case, Batman and Superman disagreeing and having a confrontation) and use it to tell their own story. X2 used the basic outline from God Loves Man Kills (Stryker kidnapping some of the X-Men, trying to get Xavier to kill all Mutants), but the movie version was still very different. TDKR adapted Knightfall and No Man's Land, but in a very different way, etc. Synder/Goyer could easily take the barest outline of TDKR and change things to make it work, making Superman more independent from the government for example. They already have to make a change since this Superman is young and literally just had his FIRST fight/mission.

 

[regwec]

Stan Lee.

And what the hell does he know about anything?

 

[Tra-El]

I think Superman fans are worried not necessarily because they don't have confidence in Superman but in how this project was announced.

Snyder introduced the "sequel" by having a quote read from Miller's TDKR. And he supposedly consulted with Miller. Lee has said he can't wait to see one of his favorite comic stories, Miller's TDKR, come to life on the big screen. Superman was treated as a stooge of the government in TDKR and as not the brightest bulb around.

Legitimate cause for concern.

Cherry-pick it, Tobias, and completely ignore the actual statement that actually came from Zack Snyder's mouth right before he read the quote from TDKR, which was.. (paraphrasing)

"..We aren't adapting this story, but I dug and dug into DC's vault and this quote could help you guys out where this introduction could be coming from.."

I think Snyder is going to consult with MANY successful Bat writers in comic-book lore, mainly to get inside the head of Bruce Wayne rather than having ideas for Batman to whoop Super's a$$. Lets not jump the damn gun here.

 

[Loki882]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the coming months, we here that Synder is meeting with Chuck Dixon, or Grant Morrison, or Greg Rucka, or Scott Snyder or others.