BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[Tobias]

I think truth in advertising re: the team-up is a concern for me.

Already IMDB is referring to the working title as Batman vs Superman. This implies a film where both share equal screen-time and story. If that is the case by all means call it Batman vs Superman or WF. Just don't pretend its an MOS sequel if it morphs into a stand-alone WF. That would be a slap at Superman fans.

This may take care of itself as on the net its increasingly referred to as Batman/Superman or Batman vs Superman but not MOS2 anymore.

WB may cause the film to drift from a WF film to a more Bat-centric film over time IMO. Especially with Goyer being an alumnus from the Batman films. If it ends up a year plus from now to feature Batman more than Superman, then calling it WF would be disingenuous. If it turns out to be mostly about Batman with Superman in a lesser role then call it:

The Dark Knight Rises Against The Man of Steel or just The Dark Knight Rises Again.

I don't want WB pretending this is an MOS sequel when it really is a WF stand-alone or a Batman re-launch film with Superman in a supporting role. Can you imagine calling it a sequel and it turns out Batman has more screen-time or the story centers around him. Slap in the face to Superman fans.

Depending on how things go and how the story unfolds, next year's ComicCon could get dicey.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I don't think Im whining I am just genuinely worried. I remember when people were worried about Zack being involved in MOS especially after Sucker Punch and the response was he is directing not writing MOS. Now he is doing both.

 

[Tobias]

I don't think Im whining I am just genuinely worried. I remember when people were worried about Zack being involved in MOS especially after Sucker Punch and the response was he is directing not writing MOS. Now he is doing both.

Yeah, a lot of people think Goyer needs a co-writer, but I don't think they expected that co-writer to be Snyder.

 

[BH/HHH]

I a, not worried about Snyder & Goyer at all seen as though I loved MOS and I think Goyer is incredibly underrated. The guys nit an idiot folks, no what I'm worried about is it seems Batman is been forced in the two and I have a feeling the studio wants him to be the big focus. I also think they want the huge showpiece to involve Batman kicking Superman's butt which really riles me. So my concerns are the studio.

 

[Tra-El]

The studio can't be that DUMB to let that happen. If anything, these two are both their bread and butter movie franchise's, most notably, MOS since it's the only one established in this universe since this WON'T be Nolan's Batman.

In the end, both Superman AND Batman need to come out of this smelling like roses if WB wants JL to happen.

One or the other won't be embarrassed by their respective fanbase. They both will have their moments and in the end, will come out of this as the leading men, especially Supes IMHO, who is said to be the ultimate LEADER of the JL. You bring in say, Darkseid for JL. Who would you feel most comfortable leading the force due to capabilities? Superman or Batman?

Exactly.

 

[BH/HHH]

The studio can't be that DUMB to let that happen. If anything, these two are both their bread and butter movie franchise's, most notably, MOS since it's the only one established in this universe since this WON'T be Nolan's Batman.

In the end, both Superman AND Batman need to come out of this smelling like roses if WB wants JL to happen.

One or the other won't be embarrassed by their respective fanbase. They both will have their moments and in the end, will come out of this as the leading men, especially Supes IMHO, who is said to be the ultimate LEADER of the JL. You bring in say, Darkseid for JL. Who would you feel most comfortable leading the force due to capabilities? Superman or Batman?

Exactly.

Of course they do, but this is WBs they make stupid decisions from time to time.

 

[Tra-El]

Of course they do, but this is WBs they make stupid decisions from time to time.

Yeah, but the blueprint has been set with MOS. You don't think they hear all this noise about them being failures? Snyder/Goyer included? This teammup movie could be the turning of the corner. This could be the BIG one for WB and they can do it with the two most iconic heroes ever put together on screen.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Yeah, a lot of people think Goyer needs a co-writer, but I don't think they expected that co-writer to be Snyder.

Ironically, I'm less concerned now that Snyder's taking a larger role in the story. From what I've read, the changes in Watchmen's script were to be more faithful than earlier drafts.

Why should the only filmmaker being accused for being too faithful forget everything about the characters in a film that needs to examine a time-honored relationship? If he doesn't make Batman cooler than Superman, and doesn't obsess in making Batman a psychopath or Superman a wimp, he'll probably provide good interpretations of both characters.

I believe in \S/nyder, though I would like a "third man" to make sure the dialog was better, and the plot construction was solid.

 

[Tobias]

Ironically, I'm less concerned now that Snyder's taking a larger role in the story. From what I've read, the changes in Watchmen's script were to be more faithful than earlier drafts.

Why should the only filmmaker being accused for being too faithful forget everything about the characters in a film that needs to examine a time-honored relationship? If he doesn't make Batman cooler than Superman, and doesn't obsess in making Batman a psychopath or Superman a wimp, he'll probably provide good interpretations of both characters.

I believe in \S/nyder, though I would like a "third man" to make sure the dialog was better, and the plot construction was solid.

I have looked and can't find anywhere where Snyder or Goyer has commented on some of the common criticisms from the reviewers. It'd be reassuring to have them acknowledge issues and tell how they will address them in WF.

I was talking to a neighbor about this and I said it seems odd WB is bringing in the same creative team with no additional help given the blistering reviews MOS got. I told him I guess WB figures Batman is so popular and resonates with audiences so well that script and plot issues will be overcome by the magic of the Bat.

He pointed out something I had not thought about. As WB wants this film out in less than 2 years from now they need to be in production by February/March. If WB were to bring in a new head writer and more so a new director the search for them could take 4/5/6 months making meeting a February production start impossible. He thinks its as much that as anything else that explains WB sticking with the same team.

Its sort of a Hail Mary as he put it and its yet to be seen if the final result will be graced. He's a Marvel guy and is confident AV2 will be great creatively and will get close to 2 billion. He doesn't seen WF as being any competition for Avengers whatsoever but is a bit worried about SW - that is the wild card. Avengers should be the biggest film of 2015, but SW could upset it.

 

[Loki882]

For the last time, Tobias, MOS got mixed reviews, not "blistering" ones. The fact that you keep saying that doesn't make it true. Transformers 2 got blistering reviews, GL got blistering reviews, Jonah Hex got blistering reviews, and Catwoman got blistering reviews. MOS did not.

 

[Tempest]

I have looked and can't find anywhere where Snyder or Goyer has commented on some of the common criticisms from the reviewers. It'd be reassuring to have them acknowledge issues and tell how they will address them in WF.

Unless they've looked and been like, "What a bunch of whiners", which is how I would respond if I were them.

You have a habit of over-stating the importance of the main objections people have had on this film.

And I sure as **** wouldn't give you the time of day if all the criticism I've read is how I don't know how to make a film. There's no point in taking anyone's criticism seriously, because I know immediately that these are people who will hate anything and everything I do.

I was talking to a neighbor about this and I said it seems odd WB is bringing in the same creative team with no additional help given the blistering reviews MOS got. I told him I guess WB figures Batman is so popular and resonates with audiences so well that script and plot issues will be overcome by the magic of the Bat.

He pointed out something I had not thought about. As WB wants this film out in less than 2 years from now they need to be in production by February/March. If WB were to bring in a new head writer and more so a new director the search for them could take 4/5/6 months making meeting a February production start impossible. He thinks its as much that as anything else that explains WB sticking with the same team.

If WB felt like the writers tanked MOS, they wouldn't have asked for a sequel, and they wouldn't have asked for one so soon. They would have nixed the idea of a sequel, not come out with the news so soon after MOS's release.

Its sort of a Hail Mary as he put it and its yet to be seen if the final result will be graced. He's a Marvel guy and is confident AV2 will be great creatively and will get close to 2 billion. He doesn't seen WF as being any competition for Avengers whatsoever but is a bit worried about SW - that is the wild card. Avengers should be the biggest film of 2015, but SW could upset it.

Well, we should just take stock in everything a Marvel fanboy says then, right? Pffffffft. Comic fanboys are as bad as Twilight fangirls.

 

[Tra-El]

If WB felt like the writers tanked MOS, they wouldn't have asked for a sequel, and they wouldn't have asked for one so soon. They would have nixed the idea of a sequel, not come out with the news so soon after MOS's release.

What people that were against the film have in their corner amidst abrupt argument without logic, is the sole inclusion of Batman.

They will argue that this WON'T be a sequel to MOS (even though Zack Snyder said they will be making another SUPERMAN movie) and will sorely focus on Zack Snyder's quote from TDKR and the meeting with Frank Miller, though Snyder has said that they WEREN'T going to adapt that certain story, just referencing the quote that Superman/Batman may butt-heads.

They will also cherry-pick that since Man of Steel didn't make 5 billion dollars, that WB is using Batman as a sympathy to Superman fans and how he needs the Batman to save the BO, even though people are going to expect the Batman that they pushed the billion dollar BO over that milestone for... Christian Bale, but get a completely different casting in the cowl.

They will also ignore the fact that Wayne Enterprises and other nods to the DCU were indeed, in MAN OF STEELS world..Superman's movie, but yet, refuse to acknowledge that Superman's entire cast is returning, like Amy Adams, Laurence Fishbourne and Diane Lane. Doesn't matter. This is Batman's movie and this will focus ONLY ON BATMAN, even though this is a NEW Batman where nothing about this Bat is established whatsoever, but yet, will waltz in the MOS universe and demand every minute of screen-time in Superman's sequel just because he's Batman and the Super-franchise is here to rot and suffer, only to never be heard from again.

They will use all of that against Superman and ignore the sheer fact and reality that WB needs to make a move in the fastest lane possible to Justice League and Batman is indeed MORE THAN needed to be involved, so why not introduce a new Batman in an already established franchise like Man of Steel and still aim for a Justice League without a total Bat-reboot on its own merits in fear of it bombing without Christian Bale.

All of that will be ignored and focus sorely on how Henry Cavill wasn't Christopher Reeve and that since Batman is involved, he must be coming in to do nothing but kick Superman's a$$ and demand 4 more trilogies of his solo-film franchise. Superman is ONLY there to be a doormat since MOS didn't make 5 billion dollars because he didn't smile at the camera and wear red underwear.

 

[BH/HHH]

Yeah, but the blueprint has been set with MOS. You don't think they hear all this noise about them being failures? Snyder/Goyer included? This teammup movie could be the turning of the corner. This could be the BIG one for WB and they can do it with the two most iconic heroes ever put together on screen.

Exactly could be? I think I'm allowed to be apprehensive right now.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Goyer for ideas. Someone else for dialog, who knows plot structure like the back of his hand.

I have looked and can't find anywhere where Snyder or Goyer has commented on some of the common criticisms from the reviewers. It'd be reassuring to have them acknowledge issues and tell how they will address them in WF.

I was talking to a neighbor about this and I said it seems odd WB is bringing in the same creative team with no additional help given the blistering reviews MOS got. I told him I guess WB figures Batman is so popular and resonates with audiences so well that script and plot issues will be overcome by the magic of the Bat.

He pointed out something I had not thought about. As WB wants this film out in less than 2 years from now they need to be in production by February/March. If WB were to bring in a new head writer and more so a new director the search for them could take 4/5/6 months making meeting a February production start impossible. He thinks its as much that as anything else that explains WB sticking with the same team.

Its sort of a Hail Mary as he put it and its yet to be seen if the final result will be graced. He's a Marvel guy and is confident AV2 will be great creatively and will get close to 2 billion. He doesn't seen WF as being any competition for Avengers whatsoever but is a bit worried about SW - that is the wild card. Avengers should be the biggest film of 2015, but SW could upset it.

Just curious but where is everyone getting the avengers 2 making 2 billion, I have seen that several times stated by people and that's just nuts.

 

[regwec]

For the last time, Tobias, MOS got mixed reviews, not "blistering" ones. The fact that you keep saying that doesn't make it true. Transformers 2 got blistering reviews, GL got blistering reviews, Jonah Hex got blistering reviews, and Catwoman got blistering reviews. MOS did not.

This ought to be stickied at the top of every page.

More reviewers liked MoS than didn't. A lot of people went to see it, some more than once.

It is a "controversial" movie, partly because it does not slavishly ape a 40 year old film, and partly because Superman fans appear to be the most fragile and whiny set in geekdom.

 

[Bathead]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the coming months, we here that Synder is meeting with Chuck Dixon, or Grant Morrison, or Greg Rucka, or Scott Snyder or others.

Yup. Although I can't verify it as being true or not, I had read that he also has talked to or plans to talk with Dini/Timm, which would be cool, if true. Regardless, all that's been said is that he planned to TALK with Miller, not that he's hired him for anything. I'd be willing to bet he's going to talk to a lot of different artist/writers.

 

[Herolee10]

Yup. Although I can't verify it as being true or not, I had read that he also has talked to or plans to talk with Dini/Timm, which would be cool, if true. Regardless, all that's been said is that he planned to TALK with Miller, not that he's hired him for anything. I'd be willing to bet he's going to talk to a lot of different artist/writers.

I hope not regarding Timm/Dini since aside from Miller, they're like the next worst pair to go to for advice on handling a film with Superman and Batman since they practically worship Batman and have made it no secret that they prefer Batman over Superman.

 

[Marvin]

Watched Returns the other night. Still can't believe the moral conundrum that is that Kid.
From the wedlock to the lies to the memory wipe...it's all very non midwestern so to speak.

 

[Smallville13]

This ought to be stickied at the top of every page.

More reviewers liked MoS than didn't. A lot of people went to see it, some more than once.

It is a "controversial" movie, partly because it does not slavishly ape a 40 year old film, and partly because Superman fans appear to be the most fragile and whiny set in geekdom.

This couldn't be more wrong.

There's a million ways to do a Superman film that aren't S:TM. And I honestly think the fan response is more than acceptable and warranted. How would you feel if the next Batman movie has day-glo my little pony colors, and ends with Batman pulling a gun and shooting Joe Chill. That's what the bleak color, destruction, and murder was like in MOS.

 

[regwec]

No, it wasn't.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

This couldn't be more wrong.

There's a million ways to do a Superman film that aren't S:TM. And I honestly think the fan response is more than acceptable and warranted. How would you feel if the next Batman movie has day-glo my little pony colors, and ends with Batman pulling a gun and shooting Joe Chill. That's what the bleak color, destruction, and murder was like in MOS.

This is absolutely absurd. My Little Pony colors? Comparing the threat of Joe Chill to General Zod?

I too am getting the impression that Superman fans are the most sensitive when it comes to fans of these characters.

 

[Bathead]

I hope not regarding Timm/Dini since aside from Miller, they're like the next worst pair to go to for advice on handling a film with Superman and Batman since they practically worship Batman and have made it no secret that they prefer Batman over Superman.

And there's that paranoia again. Again, Snyder would just be talking to them, and just like with Miller, he doesn't have to slavishly follow their advice if he feels it out of place. Besides, I thought Dini/Timm did an excellent job with their version of World's Finest, and they didn't make Superman look stupid at all. All that movie did was highlight the basic differences between the two, Superman being the corn-fed farm boy, and Batman the street-wise city bred guy. Other than that, they portrayed them as equals, which is what I would like to think is what will happen in this film.

 

[Tra-El]

Exactly could be? I think I'm allowed to be apprehensive right now.

No doubt, and I think for all of us who has been here over the years following every single detail and getting hyped for MOS and enjoying the ride has the right to be apprehensive. With this type of announcement riding off that momentum over the years, that is the natural reaction and feeling towards such a leap of faith from WB but I'm a "glass is half full" rather than a "glass is half empty" type person by nature.

Regardless, we all have our concerns and our judgements towards Superman in this movie and how he is going to be handled, but this will be one helluva ride the next few years.

 

[STARMAN]

With MOS almost everyone was optimistic and set incredible standards for the film. Lowering the expectations can be a good thing for this film. It will be easier to surpass.

 

[Tempest]

This couldn't be more wrong.

There's a million ways to do a Superman film that aren't S:TM. And I honestly think the fan response is more than acceptable and warranted. How would you feel if the next Batman movie has day-glo my little pony colors, and ends with Batman pulling a gun and shooting Joe Chill. That's what the bleak color, destruction, and murder was like in MOS.

Glass half-empty. There are a lot of pessimistic people who are Superman fans. It's really weird.