BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[Tobias]

Not if they don't spend enough time with Clark at the Daily Planet and Cavill's version of that persona. Not if they fail to show more of the Lois/ Clark dynamic in this version since she knows his secret.

I think the time spent on Batman and his relationship/rivalry with Superman could take from that. Hopefully, I wrong.

There is the Lex/Supes and Lex/Bats time too and it can't help but diminish the Lois/Clark story. All the reason to at least hint at it in WF and hope WB does an MOS 2 where Lois and Clark's relationship can be fully developed.

 

[EssayM]

Stop right there. Can't go any further because there simply isn't a Marvel method in place. DC is the alternative. If there was a Marvel method, then the people sitting at the end credits to Man of Steel would of got their fill of some kind of cameo, ala Marvel films. I think it's right for DC to go off and execute their OWN thing, which is what they seem to be doing with Superman/Batman.

They're talking about a "shared universe" less than a year after Avengers. You're telling me that's completely different from Marvel just because there wasn't any cameos?

Did you see all those LexCorp placements in MOS? Yeah, those weren't by accident. Neither was the "Wayne Enterprise" logo...

Hmph, must have missed them among all the product placement

On a serious note, some easter egg signs are not the same as fully developed characters. You still need to get them on screen, have them make an impact, and have them do something other than say a few lines.

In Hollywood, nothing is impossible, dude. What you're going to have to do, is trust in this and have some faith. The payoff could be huge, and should be huge.

I hope you're right. I honestly do.

 

[Tra-El]

They're talking about a "shared universe" less than a year after Avengers. You're telling me that's completely different from Marvel just because there wasn't any cameos?

Not saying that it's completely different in theory. Just completely different in approach and strategy, which is where alternatives come in and Marvel Studios VS DC/WB are just that.

On a serious note, some easter egg signs are not the same as fully developed characters. You still need to get them on screen, have them make an impact, and have them do something other than say a few lines.

That's the whole point in what is going to be takin' place in front of you in 2015, my friend, haha. The importance of the Easter Egg is to acknowledge that future films are going to see these characters flushed out so they can make an impact on the audience in some way shape or form. What better way to start the Big Bang than to have a Superman/Batman staredown? It simply doesn't get better than the two most iconic superheros and pulp-culture icons of all time clashing on one screen.

 

[Herolee10]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, but Warner Bros could have easily beaten Marvel to the whole “shared universe” concept had they played their cards right earlier on. Unlike Marvel, they don’t have a bunch of their biggest heroes spread throughout different studios, thus preventing them from using certain characters in the same film.

Now I know that Warner Bros isn’t like Marvel studios where their solo objective is to create comic book films, but they could have built a division that was dedicated towards handling their comic book properties.

Even though people have issues with the Marvel Studios films, at least you can feel that the people behind it have a genuine passion for those said characters. Non-comic book studios like Fox, Sony, and Warner Bros. really don’t care about their characters and only care about the profits that they could/would bring in.

IF DC ever wants to be a major player against Marvel’s cinematic universe, especially when they now have Disney backing them up, they need to hire someone who knows what he’s doing and has the right objective view of the main characters that can give a clear and solid direction for their comic book properties.

Now before anyone brings up Bruce Timm’s name as a suggestion, I’d argue back and say that Bruce Timm would not be a wise decision for someone like Superman since his animation universe is a good example of how he’d handle Superman in a world where Batman exists and as a superman fan, there’s no way in hell that I’d want that.

 

[EssayM]

Not saying that it's completely different in theory. Just completely different in approach and strategy, which is where alternatives come in and Marvel Studios VS DC/WB are just that.

Fair enough. Just not sure this particular "different approach" is really a good idea.

That's the whole point in what is going to be takin' place in front of you in 2015, my friend, haha. The importance of the Easter Egg is to acknowledge that future films are going to see these characters flushed out so they can make an impact on the audience in some way shape or form. What better way to start the Big Bang than to have a Superman/Batman staredown? It simply doesn't get better than the two most iconic superheros and pulp-culture icons of all time clashing on one screen.

Sorry, I know typos are common online, but those were a little snicker-worthy (or maybe I'm just weird.)

I do see your point, but I just feel like, if they were really going for a shared universe concept, they could have put out another solo film or two to get some buildup out of the way, instead of just going for something this big and throwing the audience in completely blind. IMO it's sort of like "We're making a Green Lantern vs. Superman movie!" "Which Green Lantern are you using?" "Oh, you'll find out!"

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, but Warner Bros could have easily beaten Marvel to the whole “shared universe” concept had they played their cards right earlier on. Unlike Marvel, they don’t have a bunch of their biggest heroes spread throughout different studios, thus preventing them from using certain characters in the same film.

Now I know that Warner Bros isn’t like Marvel studios where their solo objective is to create comic book films, but they could have built a division that was dedicated towards handling their comic book properties.

Even though people have issues with the Marvel Studios films, at least you can feel that the people behind it have a genuine passion for those said characters. Non-comic book studios like Fox, Sony, and Warner Bros. really don’t care about their characters and only care about the profits that they could/would bring in.

IF DC ever wants to be a major player against Marvel’s cinematic universe, especially when they now have Disney backing them up, they need to hire someone who knows what he’s doing and has the right objective view of the main characters that can give a clear and solid direction for their comic book properties.

Now before anyone brings up Bruce Timm’s name as a suggestion, I’d argue back and say that Bruce Timm would not be a wise decision for someone like Superman since his animation universe is a good example of how he’d handle Superman in a world where Batman exists and as a superman fan, there’s no way in hell that I’d want that.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Herolee10]

Also, for those that say that this new approach to the DC films, where having Batman and Superman team up after MOS should be considered as a great thing, and how we need to look at the bigger picture; honestly, if I could get past the fact that Superman should have gotten a standalone sequel that should give him more time to deal with the issues that were left unresolved in his last film, that still wouldn’t change the fact that Snyder and Goyer are spearheading this project on their own.

And as much as I enjoyed “MOS”, the film clearly showed that they had a hard time doing so and even with their best effort, they still weren’t able to deliver a film that was immune from the amount of flaws that it had. Hell, MOS is the hardest script that Goyer has ever written according to him, so does it really bode a lot of confidence in people to know that they have to now handle two big time DC heroes when they already have troubles in handling just one of them.

Goyer and Snyder have yet to prove themselves in being able to craft an excellent script on their own.

 

[Tra-El]

I do see your point, but I just feel like, if they were really going for a shared universe concept, they could have put out another solo film or two to get some buildup out of the way

If you're talkin' about another solo film or two, you're looking at what? 6-7, maybe 8 years down the road to eventually get to the overall goal of a DC Universe and by then, time would of certainly ran out. It's a delicate process with timing. I think the studio realized that since MOS set up this universe, that this was the time to do a cross-over with the two biggest names of ALL TIME.

instead of just going for something this big and throwing the audience in completely blind. IMO it's sort of like "We're making a Green Lantern vs. Superman movie!" "Which Green Lantern are you using?" "Oh, you'll find out!"

Isn't that the point? Most fanboys love being spoon-fed to, which is why I'm loving this ballsy Superman/Batman announcement even more the many times I re-think it. It's all about suspense anyhow. Give us a thrill and lets see how we respond..

 

[Tobias]

Also, for those that say that this new approach to the DC films, where having Batman and Superman team up after MOS should be considered as a great thing, and how we need to look at the bigger picture; honestly, if I could get past the fact that Superman should have gotten a standalone sequel that should give him more time to deal with the issues that were left unresolved in his last film, that still wouldn’t change the fact that Snyder and Goyer are spearheading this project on their own.

And as much as I enjoyed “MOS”, the film clearly showed that they had a hard time doing so and even with their best effort, they still weren’t able to deliver a film that was immune from the amount of flaws that it had. Hell, MOS is the hardest script that Goyer has ever written according to him, so does it really bode a lot of confidence in people to know that they have to now handle two big time DC heroes when they already have troubles in handling just one of them.

Goyer and Snyder have yet to prove themselves in being able to craft an excellent script on their own.

If WB is unhappy with the first draft I think and I hope Tsujihara and his team of 4 in the film division will insist on rewrites until they get it right. They can't afford a weak script. Script could become an issue if for no other reason it has to be rushed as they will be filming in February/March.

 

[Herolee10]

If WB is unhappy with the first draft I think and I hope Tsujihara and his team of 4 in the film division will insist on rewrites until they get it right. They can't afford a weak script. Script could become an issue if for no other reason it has to be rushed as they will be filming in February/March.

Well we have to remember that this is the same studio that really rushed out in having MOS start production due to the court case at the time so I wouldn't put it past them to rush this out as well due to their desire to be involved in the 2015 blockbuster summer of a lifetime.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Not gonna lie, pretty nervous about this project given the rumors about Batman casting.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, this would have been my ideal world for the DC Universe:

• Nolan’s Batman would have been created with the intent on having him integrated into a larger universe, thus after the release of “The Dark Knight”, we would have seen Batman appear next in the “Justice League”. The story for “The Dark Knight Rises” would be bit different to fit with this shared universe, where other heroes and people with powers exist.

• We would have gotten MOS in 2009, where there was virtually no real competition when it came to Comic Book films, and it would have been done much better than how it is now.

• Green Lantern would have been released in the latter half of 2009 instead, with a new cast, story, and crew that would have made the character and his mythology work.

• We would then get Justice League in 2010, thus beating Marvel, with the film introducing Wonder Woman, Flash, and the Martian Manhunter.

• We would then be at MOS 2, where Batman does not appear in and be on the verge of having our Flash and Wonder Woman spinoff solos.

 

[Marvin]

I have no interest in "painting a rotten picture" of anything. I'm an eternal optimist, and I'm holding out hope that this could be something worthwhile (or at least that it will get a good reboot if this one doesn't do well). All I'm doing is pointing out some obstacles that will inevitably be encountered if they jump into it this soon. Should I just pretend they don't exist?

That's swell to hear.

As for obstacles, have at it. I'd personally rather you paint a clearer picture to the best of your ability. I mean automatically citing that particular version of hulk simply because the film has two big famous characters that need development just struck me as odd...I would compare that to citing WF as the second coming of batman and robin simply cause it has batman in it.

I've said this before but something to take into consideration is that the modern audience doesn't need that much of a recap on the batman character. Just like they don't need that much of a recap on a new Bond incarnation every time. And before you suggest that they do in Bond, I would quickly ask just how much? How much character foundation laying did Brosnan need exactly?
This is why your marvel comparisons don't hold up imo. Those characters needed to be set up from scratch. It was assume the GA didn't even know Captain America's real name. Pretty sure Bruce Wayne is a household name at this point, I'm pretty sure the GA knows his parents were gunned down. I'd go so far as to say the GA knows all about Tom Hardy's bane specifics. Yes this is a new universe but the point is how much time needs to be given?

I would literally equate the time needed for batman set up character work in this to be almost the exact same as Salina Kyle in TDKR. She stole the show according to many but it didn't require all that much effort. She showed up, laid out her ambiguous motivations, they quarreled, teamed up, moved on into the future. I'm just saying use a little imagination.
This doesn't need to that crappy hulk movie.

Note: I'm probably forgetting a couple movies that aren't either, but that seems to be the general formula for the ones that work.

Personally I was thinking Star Trek and or Xmen First class. Duel protagonists and then some. Plenty of development and lots of action to spare. On top of it all, there was one clear lead. Look up both of those films reviews and highlight all the times flawed character development came up.

 

[kvz5]

• Nolan’s Batman would have been created with the intent on having him integrated into a larger universe, thus after the release of “The Dark Knight”, we would have seen Batman appear next in the “Justice League”. The story for “The Dark Knight Rises” would be bit different to fit with this shared universe, where other heroes and people with powers exist.

They probably could've incorporated Rachel's death in the Justice League story (instead of TDK) which will lead to TDKR's events (or just remove Rachel altogether ). And also have Talia work with at LexCorp or something like that.

 

[Juha Bach]

Honestly, this would have been my ideal world for the DC Universe:

• Nolan’s Batman would have been created with the intent on having him integrated into a larger universe, thus after the release of “The Dark Knight”, we would have seen Batman appear next in the “Justice League”. The story for “The Dark Knight Rises” would be bit different to fit with this shared universe, where other heroes and people with powers exist.

• We would have gotten MOS in 2009, where there was virtually no real competition when it came to Comic Book films, and it would have been done much better than how it is now.

• Green Lantern would have been released in the latter half of 2009 instead, with a new cast, story, and crew that would have made the character and his mythology work.

• We would then get Justice League in 2010, thus beating Marvel, with the film introducing Wonder Woman, Flash, and the Martian Manhunter.

• We would then be at MOS 2, where Batman does not appear in and be on the verge of having our Flash and Wonder Woman spinoff solos.

Why do some people on this forum insist on crying over split milk!! Instead of focusing on what WB should have done, we should focus on what they are doing now. WB finally make the first step toward a DC cinematic universe but nope its not good enough. Its blah blah blah we should have had a solo superman movie blah blah Batman should have another origin movie blah blah blah WB should use Marvel formula!! Christ!! To think i have two years of this crap to endure.

 

[Tobias]

Not gonna lie, pretty nervous about this project given the rumors about Batman casting.

A number are nervous about the project for various reasons. Bruce's casting is right up there, concern about the script and the rush to get the film out. Concern about the summer 2015 release date. And even folks who liked MOS mostly admit there were flaws in pacing, characterization and dialogue. Will those be addressed in WF?

For Superman fans an addition concern is that the hoped for development of the Clark/Lois relationship is squeezed out of WF because the focus will be on other relationships and in JL its hard to see Lois having much of a role.

People liked the Cavill/Adams chemistry, but that may not be revisited soon. WF and JL sort of put it in a shadow

Plus Henry's run is up with the first JL. What if WB says we want to option you for more films but JL films only. No more stand-alone starting roles for him. Would Henry go for that, and especially if his career is going well and he is getting starring roles by then?

Its hard to see getting great Superman villains like Metallo and Parasite unless another stand-alone Superman is done.

Lots of concerns. Few answers at this point.

I read at Dread that initially Snyder was going to talk about the sequel and their future plans for Superman but that got tabled in favor of the WF announcement. They definitely need to revisit that however.

Its a case where Snyder and WB need to tell us their plans not for just a Batman reboot and JL but also for Superman. Lay out a vision for the DCU over the next decade.

 

[Herolee10]

Why do some people on this forum insist on crying over split milk!! Instead of focusing on what WB should have done, we should focus on what they are doing now. WB finally make the first step toward a DC cinematic universe but nope its not good enough. Its blah blah blah we should have had a solo superman movie blah blah Batman should have another origin movie blah blah blah WB should use Marvel formula!! Christ!! To think i have two years of this crap to endure.

 

[Juha Bach]

 

[Mysteryman]

Not nervous , excited , at this point .

 

[EssayM]

If you're talkin' about another solo film or two, you're looking at what? 6-7, maybe 8 years down the road to eventually get to the overall goal of a DC Universe and by then, time would of certainly ran out. It's a delicate process with timing. I think the studio realized that since MOS set up this universe, that this was the time to do a cross-over with the two biggest names of ALL TIME.

Marvel did it in four years with six movies. And they were dealing with barely-known characters and their "two biggest names of all time" (Spidey and Wolverine) were stuck at other studios. The only "name" they had was the Hulk, and TIH was arguably the most lackluster of the bunch.

You don't need a decade to do it if you go in with a plan.

And what's this about "time running out"? Bats and Supes have been popular for years, and the rights certainly aren't going anywhere. (WB literally owns DC.)

I would literally equate the time needed for batman set up character work in this to be almost the exact same as Salina Kyle in TDKR. She stole the show according to many but it didn't require all that much effort. She showed up, laid out her ambiguous motivations, they quarreled, teamed up, moved on into the future. I'm just saying use a little imagination.

That's true, and you know what? I barely remember a thing about her! Here's what I remember about her: She robbed Bruce, something about a Clean Slate program, she farted around for a while, led Bats into a trap, disappeared for a while, showed up out of nowhere at the end to kill Bane for Batman (lame), and then they got married for some reason (they barely spent any time together, all they did was kiss a couple times). That's it. That's literally all I remember.

Now again, I don't think they need to tell Batman's origin again; in fact, I would hate it if they did that. But at the same time, you can't expect him to waltz into the movie and immediately captivate audiences just by virtue of being named Batman and wearing the costume. You need to set him up gradually, and that's much easier to do when you're not sharing screen time with freaking Superman.

 

[Tobias]

Marvel did it in four years with six movies. And they were dealing with barely-known characters and their "two biggest names of all time" (Spidey and Wolverine) were stuck at other studios. The only "name" they had was the Hulk, and TIH was arguably the most lackluster of the bunch.

You don't need a decade to do it if you go in with a plan.

And what's this about "time running out"? Bats and Supes have been popular for years, and the rights certainly aren't going anywhere. (WB literally owns DC.).

When do the Superman rights go public? I think 2030 or so and then the rights will be going anywhere a company wants to make a Superman film.

During the trial a concern was WB was dragging it out so that even if the heirs won they would have the Superman rights for a short period before they'd essentially lose them as they went public.

 

[jmc]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, but Warner Bros could have easily beaten Marvel to the whole “shared universe” concept had they played their cards right earlier on. Unlike Marvel, they don’t have a bunch of their biggest heroes spread throughout different studios, thus preventing them from using certain characters in the same film.

Now I know that Warner Bros isn’t like Marvel studios where their solo objective is to create comic book films, but they could have built a division that was dedicated towards handling their comic book properties.

Even though people have issues with the Marvel Studios films, at least you can feel that the people behind it have a genuine passion for those said characters. Non-comic book studios like Fox, Sony, and Warner Bros. really don’t care about their characters and only care about the profits that they could/would bring in.

IF DC ever wants to be a major player against Marvel’s cinematic universe, especially when they now have Disney backing them up, they need to hire someone who knows what he’s doing and has the right objective view of the main characters that can give a clear and solid direction for their comic book properties.

Now before anyone brings up Bruce Timm’s name as a suggestion, I’d argue back and say that Bruce Timm would not be a wise decision for someone like Superman since his animation universe is a good example of how he’d handle Superman in a world where Batman exists and as a superman fan, there’s no way in hell that I’d want that.

I hear this argument all the time but I don't understand what people think WB creating a specific division for superhero films would accomplish when ultimately the heads at WB are still the ones who will be greenlighting the projects. The truth is WB is never going to have the commitment to a shared universe concept like what Marvel are doing. I know it's hard for people to accept it but the DC universe thing is, at best, going to be made up as they go along, WB are never going to have massive plans like Marvel, we're frankly deluding ourselves if we think they ever will. I'll make this prediction as well, the DC universe on film will consist of no more than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Flash being given the arse to TV says to me (no matter what film they say is in development) that there is no intention for a greater shared universe. JL movie will essentially consist of Trinity.

 

[Loki882]

Ah, yes, comic book fans are eternal optimists aren't they?

 

[Herolee10]

Not nervous , excited , at this point .

Sounds like my friend just before his wedding.lol

I hear this argument all the time but I don't understand what people think WB creating a specific division for superhero films would accomplish when ultimately the heads at WB are still the ones who will be greenlighting the projects. The truth is WB is never going to have the commitment to a shared universe concept like what Marvel are doing. I know it's hard for people to accept it but the DC universe thing is, at best, going to be made up as they go along, WB are never going to have massive plans like Marvel, we're frankly deluding ourselves if we think they ever will. I'll make this prediction as well, the DC universe on film will consist of no more than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Flash being given the arse to TV says to me (no matter what film they say is in development) that there is no intention for a greater shared universe. JL movie will essentially consist of Trinity.

Which is kind of a shame really in the long run for us DC fans; I mean realistically speaking, I see our situation being something similar to that of the X-Men franchise, where they’re just making it up as they go along as well, hence their continuity and lack of direction at times being one of their biggest issues.

I mean it would have at least been better if this DC universe was spearheaded, or started by capable storytellers when MOS was first created, but apparently that’s not even the case as Snyder and Goyer aren’t exactly the best when it comes to doing things like that.

It’s really things like this that further emphasizes a lot of people’s points on how it would have been better if Superman was from a standalone universe so that he’d have a better chance of having a quality franchise.

 

[Herolee10]

Ah, yes, comic book fans are eternal optimists aren't they?

Well, I think it's pretty much a given that Marvel fans in general have a lot more things to be positive and excited about than DC fans.

 

[Tra-El]

Well, I think it's pretty much a given that Marvel fans in general have a lot more things to be positive and excited about than DC fans.

For no000ooow, muhahahaha, muhahahaha.