BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

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For anyone that’s familiar with the Wrestling World, this whole situation reminds me of the Monday Night Wars between the WWE and WCW; with DC/Warner Bros. being WCW and Marvel being WWE.lol Like WCW, Warner Bros doesn’t know how to use their other characters and keep reusing the same ones, while Marvel strives on tackling characters that weren’t well known to the GA, hence their success.
 
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Why do some people on this forum insist on crying over split milk!! Instead of focusing on what WB should have done, we should focus on what they are doing now. WB finally make the first step toward a DC cinematic universe but nope its not good enough. Its blah blah blah we should have had a solo superman movie blah blah Batman should have another origin movie blah blah blah WB should use Marvel formula!! Christ!! To think i have two years of this crap to endure.
Yup. I also have a feeling people will change their tunes once we learn more facts. Right now its pure fanboy worst case scenario nonsense.
 
For anyone that’s familiar with the Wrestling World, this whole situation reminds me of the Monday Night Wars between the WWE and WCW; with DC/Warner Bros. being WCW and Marvel being WWE.lol Like WCW, Warner Bros doesn’t know how to use their other characters and keep reusing the same ones, while Marvel strives on tackling characters that weren’t well known to the GA, hence their success.

Nitro kicked Raw's ass for 3 straight years and Bischoff had Vince on the ropes. Nitro had the roster to put Vince out for good, but they didn't know how to use that talent. Same with DC. DC has FAR MORE legendary characters within their holster and Superman/Batman is like Sting/Hogan at Starcade '97; they just need to execute it right to put a severe dent in Marvel's exterior because looking at DC's roster? Wonder Woman? Flash? Aquaman? House-hold names, names that are just waiting to erupt.

If WB doesn't do a botched fast-count with Superman/Batman, the worlds most iconic of ALL iconic heroes, they will open the door for Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman and have Marvel right where they want them in a few years.

Lets just hope there's no fingerpoke of doom:cwink:
 
WCW was so obsessed with pushing the same things over and over (NWO, Kevin Nash, etc), that they didn't diversify. You had people like Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, and other fantastic performers who were held back. Marvel is diversifying, that is why we're getting GOTG, AM, and DS in Phase Three. If WB can also do this, then they will be successful.
 
Nitro kicked Raw's ass for 3 straight years and Bischoff had Vince on the ropes. Nitro had the roster to put Vince out for good, but they didn't know how to use that talent. Same with DC. DC has FAR MORE legendary characters within their holster and Superman/Batman is like Sting/Hogan at Starcade '97; they just need to execute it right to put a severe dent in Marvel's exterior because looking at DC's roster? Wonder Woman? Flash? Aquaman? House-hold names, names that are just waiting to erupt.

If WB doesn't do a botched fast-count with Superman/Batman, the worlds most iconic of ALL iconic heroes, they will open the door for Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman and have Marvel right where they want them in a few years.

Lets just hope there's no fingerpoke of doom:cwink:


Goyer actually reminds me of Vince Russo at times since Goyer and Russo are known to be the type of people that can come up with good ideas, but they need a leash or someone to filter out the crap that can/will come from those raw ideas, otherwise you end up getting more of a mess instead.
 
That's true, and you know what? I barely remember a thing about her! Here's what I remember about her: She robbed Bruce, something about a Clean Slate program, she farted around for a while, led Bats into a trap, disappeared for a while, showed up out of nowhere at the end to kill Bane for Batman (lame), and then they got married for some reason (they barely spent any time together, all they did was kiss a couple times). That's it. That's literally all I remember.

Now again, I don't think they need to tell Batman's origin again; in fact, I would hate it if they did that. But at the same time, you can't expect him to waltz into the movie and immediately captivate audiences just by virtue of being named Batman and wearing the costume. You need to set him up gradually, and that's much easier to do when you're not sharing screen time with freaking Superman.

Quite the memory.

Interesting point you make there at the end, fortunately this isn't a batman movie. It's a Superman sequel.
Go watch the original worlds finest feature to see similar treatment of batman.
 
Goyer actually reminds me of Vince Russo at times since Goyer and Russo are known to be the type of people that can come up with good ideas, but they need a leash or someone to filter out the crap that can/will come from those raw ideas, otherwise you end up getting more of a mess instead.

That's a good comparison. Russo always took credit for RAW's peak in the Monday Night Wars, which I'm sure Goyer takes most credit in TDK trilogy and its success's from the screenplay and WB trusts his judgements because of that.

Russo came over to WCW and was doing all this realism, "shoot" garbage, kind of like DC's "grounded" universe being all real in reality compared to Marvel's campiness and "funess."

Kidding aside, I think Goyer gets a bad rap. Some is deserved, some isn't. For the most part, I think fans are too harsh on 'em and he deserves far more credit, ala Snyder. Hopefully, a man like Jonathan Nolan can be that filter you are talking about in the upcoming screenplay for WF.:word:
 
Which is kind of a shame really in the long run for us DC fans; I mean realistically speaking, I see our situation being something similar to that of the X-Men franchise, where they’re just making it up as they go along as well, hence their continuity and lack of direction at times being one of their biggest issues.

I mean it would have at least been better if this DC universe was spearheaded, or started by capable storytellers when MOS was first created, but apparently that’s not even the case as Snyder and Goyer aren’t exactly the best when it comes to doing things like that.

It’s really things like this that further emphasizes a lot of people’s points on how it would have been better if Superman was from a standalone universe so that he’d have a better chance of having a quality franchise.


I was a big fan of Superman, and the entire DC roster, having their own universes to play in. I still am if I'm honest, I'm a Batman guy and I have so little interest in the upcoming team up film it's not funny. Frankly this team up movie is IMO the absolute wrong move from a creative perspective, I understand the financial incentive especially since MoS probably didn't do the numbers WB was expecting, but even though I think MoS isn't that great it's a solid enough start to have truly delivered a genuine Superman movie as it's sequel. Film 2 is the perfect time for Lex Luthor to emerge, but instead we get Batman, and I know Lex could play a role but the real battle is going to be between Clark and Bruce, I don't think those two characters will actually 'team up' at all or even become friends by films end, I genuinely believe Batman will be the antagonist in the movie meaning Luthors roles gets watered down. My major disappointment is that the Superman/Luthor battle, either through minds and/or strength will at best be diminished or at worst be non-existent when film two is the perfect time for that battle to commence. There's no real need for Batman and Superman to be the follow up to MoS other than the obvious financial reasons.
 
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And they want to build a DCCU, that's a pretty good reason.
 
And they want to build a DCCU, that's a pretty good reason.

This is all what it primarily comes down to. For WB, the timing is now and only now to get their ass in gear and bust out a gamechanger of their own to establish what they were supposed to establish with the failed Superman Returns and Green Lantern. Those franchise's kind of set them back a bit so how dare them from being so timid over the years but make no mistake about it: MOS gave them some bite. It won't be until Superman/Batman where they begin to snarl.
 
Even though the intent is to build a DCU, the goal should be to do so with quality as well and that’s something that a lot of people are worried about since the quality of Superman’s own franchise is sacrificed at the expense of this shared universe, sort of like how Iron Man 2 was, but on a greater level of course.

At least Thor 2 and Captain America 2 are free from problems like that, which is something I see being the same for the other heroes the end up spawning their own franchises somewhere down the line for the DCU, but the fact that Superman came out first, his films were doomed from the start to be filled with these DCU factors that would detract the quality of his own franchise.

By the end of the day, Batman will likely get another trilogy again somewhere down the line and I doubt Superman or any other major DC player that isn’t from his gallery will appear.
 
By the end of the day, Batman will likely get another trilogy again somewhere down the line and I doubt Superman or any other major DC player that isn’t from his gallery will appear.

Snyder, Goyer and WB set MOS as to establish Superman to be the first of all superheros and it's because of Superman that others will eventually come to the conclusion to appear, so Superman is the first superhero in this universe to be seen.

With that logic and with this NEW Batman making his FIRST appearance in Man of Steel's world, only to see Batman the only one with a new and improved trilogy somewhere down the line, just doesn't make sense to me. If anything, I would think since this universe was created in MOS, that it would be Superman to carry out his film franchise and atleast come back with a few solo films once this crossover and JL teammup is in the bag.

Superman and Batman are going to be in a film together with one already established (Superman) so it would be ridic if they would give Batman the full attention and just forget about Supes when he is now equally as important as Batman within this pairing for screen-time.

I think the Super-franchise is going to be just fine. It's this new Batman that is going to have to make the impression, especially him appearing so soon after Bale's Bat.
 
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WCW was so obsessed with pushing the same things over and over (NWO, Kevin Nash, etc), that they didn't diversify. You had people like Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, and other fantastic performers who were held back. Marvel is diversifying, that is why we're getting GOTG, AM, and DS in Phase Three. If WB can also do this, then they will be successful.
I personally find that they're way over-saturating the market with their plan. I loved Iron Man, but with every solo movie since then I've kind of cared less and less. They're going to have to get very creative with storylines and approaches to not bore the audience, because the comic book genre in general has a very formulaic approach to each story, and after awhile it's just the same movie with a different character.

And people, please stop saying the 'quality is being sacrificed because of this team-up'. That is a 100% baseless comment. Is it a possibility? Of course. But it's hardly a known fact at this point. Having a second awesome character does not equal them dumbing down his arc, nor does it mean Batman will overshadow him. These are personal fears you are projecting, not the current reality of the project.
 
There is the Lex/Supes and Lex/Bats time too and it can't help but diminish the Lois/Clark story. All the reason to at least hint at it in WF and hope WB does an MOS 2 where Lois and Clark's relationship can be fully developed.

This. Or do MOS2 with Batman being like Hawkeye in the Thor movie AND THEN a WF movie ;)
 
Snyder, Goyer and WB set MOS as to establish Superman to be the first of all superheros and it's because of Superman that others will eventually come to the conclusion to appear, so Superman is the first superhero in this universe to be seen.

With that logic and with this NEW Batman making his FIRST appearance in Man of Steel's world, only to see Batman the only one with a new and improved trilogy somewhere down the line, just doesn't make sense to me. If anything, I would think since this universe was created in MOS, that it would be Superman to carry out his film franchise and atleast come back with a few solo films once this crossover and JL teammup is in the bag.

Superman and Batman are going to be in a film together with one already established (Superman) so it would be ridic if they would give Batman the full attention and just forget about Supes when he is now equally as important as Batman within this pairing for screen-time.

I think the Super-franchise is going to be just fine. It's this new Batman that is going to have to make the impression, especially him appearing so soon after Bale's Bat.


Well this all really depends though on whether Snyder and Goyer decide to go with a rookie or veteran (thus older) batman for their DCU. Even though Goyer said that Superman is the first hero in the world in previous interviews, they could easily recton it to fit with this new version since there was nothing to indicate in the actual film that Clark was the first costumed hero.

I still honestly hope that this new film is treated more as MOS 2 featuring Batman, than an actual WF film simply because we have yet to see Superman fully established and I’d like to see a film dedicated to that instead of doing the simple, and somewhat lazy, time jump route where we skip out on all of that development.

I’ve said this before, but ideally, it’d be great if the film showed us on how Superman, Batman, and Lex were all portrayed as individuals who the people of Earth thought could be the “right hero” that humanity needs, but in the end, it’s Superman’s ideals and character that wins him over the hearts of the people in the end, with Lex being revealed to be the villain that he really is and Batman learning that justice doesn’t always have to come from darkness. If anything, Batman could be presented as a person who’s very close towards crossing that line of no return where he could become more anti-hero than hero if he’s not careful and that it’s his experience with Superman that helps him get back on the right course, the course that he originally started on.

Plus, if this is treated as MOS 2 featuring Batman, then Superman fans will be happy and the General Audience will still get their Superman and Batman team up.
 
Batman might have been a shadowy vigilante for a while, and Superman's appearance causes him to be more open about his activities.
 
And they want to build a DCCU, that's a pretty good reason.

That's debatable, at least not for the same reasons or to the extent that Marvel are. A Superman/Batman film honestly doesn't mean much at all in terms of a DCCU, all it means is it's a Superman Batman movie.
 
We dont know that .
For all we know, this film could hint at a Trinity or JL film being the followup.
 
My money is on Trinity and Justice League being one and the same.
 
My money is on Trinity and Justice League being one and the same.

Which would suck because no matter how popular those three are, the group formed just only of those three is no justice league.
 
My money is on Trinity and Justice League being one and the same.

Interesting with a Trinity suggestion, though, I've heard most people clamor that having the dynamic of Superman/Batman in this upcoming MOS2 takes away from the overall excitement for JL because most of the attractions to JL would be the Superman/Batman interactions, so putting Supes, Bats and WW all together in Trinity would only resonate with those types of crowds.

I'd save Wonder Woman for a cameo, which would lead people's extended excitement for JL to see her fleshed out there and then maybe kickoff her franchise and who knows, maybe have Trinity as a spinoff before a JL2.
 
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Which would suck because no matter how popular those three are, the group formed just only of those three is no justice league.

It's an easier sell than a film title 'Trinity'. Here's my prediction after Batman/Superman we get a Trinity film, or as I imagine it will be called 'Justice League', and that will be the extent of the DC universe on film, we will get solo films of each of those characters post JL along with the occasional team up movie thereafter but no one else. From a business perspective it gives WB what they want, a shared DC universe, but a limited one where the risks aren't as great. If they can rely on those three characters then that's all they'll do on film with their superhero properties, the demotion of Flash to TV screams to me that they have no interest in B-list characters regardless of whether they say a film is still coming, they dipped their toe into the water with GL and failed miserably, characters like Flash, Arrow, Aquaman, etc will be relegated to TV only. I could be wrong but that's the most logical approached I see for them.
 
People dreading this film isn't 'fanboy worst case scenario nonsense'. It's due to the fact that many folk, myself included, thought Man of Steel was a trainwreck. It's really that simple. You wouldn't have wanted Justin Theroux working on the Avengers are Iron Man II, would you?
 
It saddens me that Batman is able to inspire alot of talent, because these people just instantly 'get it' and why his stories work, there's been no-one lining up to tell Superman stories.

The appeal of Batman is just so palpable instantly to creative types. They instantly recognize which regions of the human psyche he draws on: dark, gothic, satanic imagery (which has always been 'cool' in underground and pop culture), the powerful car in big explosive chases, the sexy fetish girls, the thrill/escapist/adrenaline aspect of it.

Whereas most of these same people just don't see the appeal of Superman. They understand the appeal of flying, but they think that's all there is to it, and it's shallow beyond that. Superman has just always had this problem with these people. Even before MOS, Snyder admitted he could never do a Superman film. We saw it leading up to filming too. Jonathan Nolan saying he just 'doesn't get the character, and thus would be no help in writing for it'. Defend Chris Nolan all you want saying his reasons were to do with 'inexperience in effects-driven films, and wanting to move on from superhero movies', the truth is he passed off MOS. The truth is if he really felt passionate about the project and excited about it's prospects he would have done it himself. As simple as that. But Superman isn't Batman, and thus he didn't feel the same about him. Joss Whedon has dished on Superman as well. That he's 'not attainable enough, too idyllic, too powerful'. The usual BS. Even certain comics writers don't get the character and thus can't or won't write stories about him.

I really really hoped that MOS would be the turning point for this. That it would be the light switch in everyone's head, especially these intellectual artists and storytellers, that just turns on all at once. Where all these people would finally see the appeal of the character. Why the character works. And thus the entire property is rejuvenated with all these fresh-minded people wanting to add to it and carry it even further then it's been in these last 75 years.

But to be honest: It didn't. If anything it just continues the cycle of abuse of people confusing it, and just not getting it. The reasons here are twofold but I think they both fold back on Snyder. One the movie was good, and that's it. About on par with all the other ordinary Marvel fare we've been getting. Nothing that sets it above those. And a lot of people here and outside here will tell you it was only average, or very very bad. That's fault 1.

Fault 2 is what Snyder actually tried to do to compensate for this creative cloud the character has given other industry storytellers. He tried to reinvent the character and the stories he's in. He chipped away and away until we were left with something else. To make him relatable and attainable he gave him social angst and a bitter upbringing. You can argue this, but until the final flashback clothesline scene we really aren't shown much joy in his youth. Every flashback before hand is to make a point about his alienation and serve some preachy Costner dialogue. And scenes like with the trucker in the bar serve to make a point about this alienation as well. I thought this was a novel change actually, had the film halfway led to Clark's fulfillment of life, and acceptance from other people. It goes too far though by also putting a chip on his shoulder by making him responsible for not saving his father when he could. That he was instead supposed to learn some lesson against his own nature, which is to save people. By the end of this 'Superman' story. The color palette is just murky bleak grey (yes, in a 'Superman' story). The city is just smoke and rubble. And then our hero just snaps the villains neck, in a resolution that no other superhero film has ever done. But I don't really think that speaks for ambition, more forced edginess, and actually confusion. Yes, even the people behind MOS, didn't get how the character resolves situations in his own stories and why this is important.

So instead of SR where it was just disregard, MOS may have actually achieved negatively affecting the character even more. People may actually be more confused than ever about the character now. And to be honest the people behind MOS are just the same. Having the sequel be Batman/Superman again speaks to confusion as to where to take the character. And a safety net because 'hey, bring in Batman, he can't fail right?'.

Here's the difference between Batman and Superman, and coincidently why Superman will always be far and away the better character for me. Batman is all of those things I mentioned at the top: dark imagery, thrills, cars, girls, etc. Grant Morrison has said that Batman is a teenage fantasy, whereas Superman is more adult, in the sense that Batman has a butler, has a myriad of sexy girls chasing him, better cars than Bond, and is a thrill-seeker, underneath all this anti-hero 'avenge my parents' that no-one cares about. Superman has a boss, pines for a hard-working girl, as well as struggles with existentialist problems of his own limits. But that's nothing compared to what Superman really is. Superman is a celebration of life, humanity, nature, love, and adventure. That's what his films (and any medium he's in) should be. A bright, colorful palette. Fun, inspiring stories.

I guess this is where the disconnect lies though. Too few people actually get this. Especially the important ones at WB/DC that are responsible for what happens with the property. And even Superman's best fans will argue the ideal nature of his stories and character (looking at you Marvin). Sigh.

Well this post turned out longer than I originally intentioned…
 
It's an easier sell than a film title 'Trinity'. Here's my prediction after Batman/Superman we get a Trinity film, or as I imagine it will be called 'Justice League', and that will be the extent of the DC universe on film, we will get solo films of each of those characters post JL along with the occasional team up movie thereafter but no one else. From a business perspective it gives WB what they want, a shared DC universe, but a limited one where the risks aren't as great. If they can rely on those three characters then that's all they'll do on film with their superhero properties, the demotion of Flash to TV screams to me that they have no interest in B-list characters regardless of whether they say a film is still coming, they dipped their toe into the water with GL and failed miserably, characters like Flash, Arrow, Aquaman, etc will be relegated to TV only. I could be wrong but that's the most logical approached I see for them.

This.

And still, I have high hopes for this upcoming film, unlike a lot of people here. I don't care how, why, or when this project came together. I just care about the results of it. And as of right now, we have no results. We just have people online throwing paint at the wall, hoping something will stick.

I think people really need to cool down and think about "what if" they knocked this son of a ***** out of the park. Think of the possibilities then.

Too much cynicism, I tell you.
 
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