BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[jmc]

I didn't like it because it meant the finale was an anticlimax.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think IM3 showed Marvel are willing to take chances now which is something they avoided doing in Phase one, like completely avoided. You look at all those phase one movies and they are as stock standard a bunch of superhero films as you can get. The only reason IM stands out is down the the lead actor. They may have screwed up the final act of Iron Man 3 with an unsatisfying switcheroo but I give them credit for at least doing it knowing full well people would hate it.

I agree with the chances thing. On the overall quality of the movie, if I see it as anything else other than a comedy with action bits, it fails in my eyes. And this is coming from a guy who loves the twist.

 

[true316]

Honestly, I think it's a mixture of A LOT of things really.

1. A lot of people were hoping for this new film (whether you view it as a direct sequel or a crossover/team up film) to be a true direct sequel to MOS where Superman wouldn't have to share his screen time with any major DC hero that wasn't from his mythology.

2. Superman doesn't exactly have the best history of being portrayed at his best within the media when he shares the screen with Batman.

3. Snyder is supposedly known for his love of Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" comic book arc which is known to be hated by quite a few superman fans due to how Superman was portrayed there. Not to mention that it was said awhile ago that Snyder has recently gone to Miller to receive some advice regarding this film.

4. Supermhomepage, which is known to be a very reliable website, said that one of their sources managed to get a quote from Snyder on how regardless of how he felt about Superman personally, that this film would go towards the direction that Warner Bros. felt was best for it.

5. I think that if there's one thing people can agree on for MOS, whether you loved it or hate it, is that it had issues in its script and if Snyder and Goyer already have trouble handling one Major DC character, what are the chances that they can make a great film that features two of DC's biggest heroes.

I am not terribly excited for this movie and that post captured most of the reasons why.

A long time ago, comic writers used to hate writing team ups or a very simple reason. They don't make sense.

I LOVE the Chris Nolan version of Batman. He was human, vulnerable, fallible. He could be beaten so when he won in the end it made it even more awesome.

Even I know you can't have that version of Batman standing alongside super powered characters. I'm dreading the idea that we are going to get the horrible "Batgod" version of the character. The Batgod version of the character is more powerful than Dr. Manhattan. He's always ten steps ahead of everyone, faster than the Flash, has a solution to every problem. He's like a walking deus ex machina.

Putting Batman and Superman together is a great financial decision for WB... in the short term. But if they do this wrong it could have catastrophic long term consequences. If every other DC hero becomes so stupid in Batman's presence that they need him to tell them how to tie their shoes, will anyone want to watch solo movies with them? I know I won't.

 

[BlueLantern]

Well the simple rebuttal to your final point is that Iron Man 3 made 1.2 billion in a post-Avengers world.

 

[Tobias]

I am not terribly excited for this movie and that post captured most of the reasons why.

A long time ago, comic writers used to hate writing team ups or a very simple reason. They don't make sense.

I LOVE the Chris Nolan version of Batman. He was human, vulnerable, fallible. He could be beaten so when he won in the end it made it even more awesome.

Even I know you can't have that version of Batman standing alongside super powered characters. I'm dreading the idea that we are going to get the horrible "Batgod" version of the character. The Batgod version of the character is more powerful than Dr. Manhattan. He's always ten steps ahead of everyone, faster than the Flash, has a solution to every problem. He's like a walking deus ex machina.

Putting Batman and Superman together is a great financial decision for WB... in the short term. But if they do this wrong it could have catastrophic long term consequences. If every other DC hero becomes so stupid in Batman's presence that they need him to tell them how to tie their shoes, will anyone want to watch solo movies with them? I know I won't.

Script development for this film will be interesting. Will a co-writer come in?

Will the new structure at WB have an impact? Tsujihara has flattened the organization and 4 VP types co-ordinate, under Tsujihara, the film division. More of a committee style set-up. Tsujihara has done the same on the TV side of things.

I still feel it rushed. WB has to have a CBM movie in 2015? Didn't seem to bother them before. They have never had a CBM film out every year. Won't be one next year. Wasn't one in 2011.

So now, in what will be the make or break film for the DCU, they just have to have it in 2015 and they have to pluck it down between AV2 and SW.

Reactive decision making - as usual with WB. This is why many are worried about the film and about WB's handling of the DCU.

 

[BlueLantern]

It's why I laughed when someone says WB goes for the win. They go big whenever they make something because instead of two steps forward they need six.

 

[Tobias]

People dreading this film isn't 'fanboy worst case scenario nonsense'. It's due to the fact that many folk, myself included, thought Man of Steel was a trainwreck. It's really that simple. You wouldn't have wanted Justin Theroux working on the Avengers are Iron Man II, would you?

Has Snyder and/or Goyer been asked to comment on the set of criticisms of the film common to many of the reviews? Pacing/editing, characterizations and dialog issues specifically? Singer was asked about issues with his film - though he got snippy and blamed WB for not promoting SR enough.

I'd like to think the suits at WB have discussed these issues with the Snyder team.

It will be interesting to see how smoothly or not script development goes.

 

[Tempest]

If Man of Steel sucked, then I'm curious to know what you think of Marvel Studios' output....

Is there anyone who seriously thinks that the Marvel films are the epitome of excellence? Because really. It is beyond me how Iron Man became so popular. It can't be the storyline. It has to be the actor.

Seriously, all I remember about the first two Iron Man films was that RDjr was in them, he wore a robotic suit, and there was fire. Although I don't know if there was fire in both films, or just the one. They blurred together into one hot mess in my memory. Sort of like the Twilight films. What's up with stupid movies being so popular?

 

[Destructus86]

I feel nothing but dread for this superhero team up. Hollywood has failed to make a decent Batman character on screen. I know people rave about Bale's Batman and that's fine...but the fact is he isn't very close to the comic at all. He wasn't the master detective/martial artist that lived in the shadows. Too much focus was on the mask (Bruce Wayne) and not the man (Batman)

And now they want an old Batman for the team up? INSTEAD of a Batman in his prime? So what...when they make a justice league movie will Batman be 60?

 

[Rowsdower!]

While seeing people say that they "feel nothing but dread" about this movie makes me roll my eyes whenever I see it, I finally figured out what about this movie keeps bugging me. I couldn't quite put my finger on it and then the other day it just hit me in the face.

Some people out there don't want a shared universe with superheroes (on film at least) and prefer each series to be its own thing, as it was at least in Nolan's Batman trilogy. I am not one of those people. The prospect of seeing Superman, Batman, the Flash, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern team up on the big screen is something I've wanted to see for many, many years. If done right, it could be just as awesome as The Avengers was, only more so (for me) because I've always been more of a DC guy.

But here's the thing. Even if the universes are shared, I like the idea of a superhero getting his/her own series of films that are mostly separate from other heroes. The reason for this is quite simple; if I don't like the way that they portray one of those other characters, I can just sort of pretend like they don't exist in the first hero's "world." Even if they make a reference to the other character, his/her city, etc., I can mostly ignore that and enjoy the hero's own series.

I know a lot of people didn't like MOS, or thought it could have been better. But for me, I really enjoyed it and I wanted to see more of that story continue, fairly independent of other heroes. A Batman cameo would have been fine, but nothing really beyond that, because I don't know if I'm going to like this new Batman. I don't know if the casting is going to work. What I do know though is that the MOS cast worked, the ones who lived at the end of the first movie are firmly in place, and the only thing that a solo Superman sequel would have needed was a good script that moves Clark forward, and matches him up with another good villain. Throwing Batman in there in a major capacity COULD work... but if it doesn't, it pretty much washes everything they established in MOS down the drain.

So... I hope Superman/Batman or whatever it's called is the movie we all want it to be (most of us anyway... the hell with people who WANT it to fail). But I think it would have been better to save a team-up for a Justice League movie or a World's Finest movie AFTER a true MOS sequel. That way, if JL, WF, or a new Batman series sucks, at least I might still have my MOS series to enjoy.

 

[Marvin]

looking forward to two more years of this

 

[jmc]

Is there anyone who seriously thinks that the Marvel films are the epitome of excellence? Because really. It is beyond me how Iron Man became so popular. It can't be the storyline. It has to be the actor.

Seriously, all I remember about the first two Iron Man films was that RDjr was in them, he wore a robotic suit, and there was fire. Although I don't know if there was fire in both films, or just the one. They blurred together into one hot mess in my memory. Sort of like the Twilight films. What's up with stupid movies being so popular?

It is the actor. I've said this a bunch of time before but without RDJ Iron Man is a much weaker movie and the subsequent MCU doesn't eventuate, or at least not in the way it's currently unfolded. I wouldn't go so far to compare it to Twilight, that's not a fair comparison at all, but they won't be looked back on as anything remarkable in terms of story or film making, they are just these mid-range superhero films that are neither particularly great nor particularly bad. I have to say though I don't think MoS will be highly regarded either for that matter, it'll be remembered as another botched Superman movie.

 

[Tobias]

It is the actor. I've said this a bunch of time before but without RDJ Iron Man is a much weaker movie and the subsequent MCU doesn't eventuate, or at least not in the way it's currently unfolded. I wouldn't go so far to compare it to Twilight, that's not a fair comparison at all, but they won't be looked back on as anything remarkable in terms of story or film making, they are just these mid-range superhero films that are neither particularly great nor particularly bad. I have to say though I don't think MoS will be highly regarded either for that matter, it'll be remembered as another botched Superman movie.

Let's hope WF doesn't end up botched too - if it does the DCU is probably dead for years to come. I am amazed at the risk WB is taking here from the scheduling to bringing back the exact same creative team.

 

[Tempest]

It is the actor. I've said this a bunch of time before but without RDJ Iron Man is a much weaker movie and the subsequent MCU doesn't eventuate, or at least not in the way it's currently unfolded. I wouldn't go so far to compare it to Twilight, that's not a fair comparison at all, but they won't be looked back on as anything remarkable in terms of story or film making, they are just these mid-range superhero films that are neither particularly great nor particularly bad. I have to say though I don't think MoS will be highly regarded either for that matter, it'll be remembered as another botched Superman movie.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think MOS will be (or should be) considered a great cinematic achievement. I love the film and think it's great, but it's not that special.

I just don't get where the idea came from that the Marvel films are so spectacular. They're dull and uninspired. At least I felt like I was on a journey of discovery in MOS, whereas the Marvel films greatest aspirations were to look really cool.

 

[Tempest]

Let's hope WF doesn't end up botched too - if it does the DCU is probably dead for years to come. I am amazed at the risk WB is taking here from the scheduling to bringing back the exact same creative team.

WB obviously doesn't feel that Snyder and Goyer botched things. You opine that the film was botched, but that doesn't actually make it true.

 

[Tobias]

It is the actor. I've said this a bunch of time before but without RDJ Iron Man is a much weaker movie and the subsequent MCU doesn't eventuate, or at least not in the way it's currently unfolded. I wouldn't go so far to compare it to Twilight, that's not a fair comparison at all, but they won't be looked back on as anything remarkable in terms of story or film making, they are just these mid-range superhero films that are neither particularly great nor particularly bad. I have to say though I don't think MoS will be highly regarded either for that matter, it'll be remembered as another botched Superman movie.

Just curious. As I too feel MOS was weak film. Instead of asking what was wrong creatively with MOS I'll make it positive - what would have made it a good film in your opinion?

 

[Tobias]

WB obviously doesn't feel that Snyder and Goyer botched things. You opine that the film was botched, but that doesn't actually make it true.

Now that is a scary thought - WB doesn't think Snyder and company botched things. It explains a lot though.

 

[Destructus86]

While seeing people say that they "feel nothing but dread" about this movie makes me roll my eyes whenever I see it, I finally figured out what about this movie keeps bugging me. I couldn't quite put my finger on it and then the other day it just hit me in the face.

Some people out there don't want a shared universe with superheroes (on film at least) and prefer each series to be its own thing, as it was at least in Nolan's Batman trilogy. I am not one of those people. The prospect of seeing Superman, Batman, the Flash, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern team up on the big screen is something I've wanted to see for many, many years. If done right, it could be just as awesome as The Avengers was, only more so (for me) because I've always been more of a DC guy.

But here's the thing. Even if the universes are shared, I like the idea of a superhero getting his/her own series of films that are mostly separate from other heroes. The reason for this is quite simple; if I don't like the way that they portray one of those other characters, I can just sort of pretend like they don't exist in the first hero's "world." Even if they make a reference to the other character, his/her city, etc., I can mostly ignore that and enjoy the hero's own series.

I know a lot of people didn't like MOS, or thought it could have been better. But for me, I really enjoyed it and I wanted to see more of that story continue, fairly independent of other heroes. A Batman cameo would have been fine, but nothing really beyond that, because I don't know if I'm going to like this new Batman. I don't know if the casting is going to work. What I do know though is that the MOS cast worked, the ones who lived at the end of the first movie are firmly in place, and the only thing that a solo Superman sequel would have needed was a good script that moves Clark forward, and matches him up with another good villain. Throwing Batman in there in a major capacity COULD work... but if it doesn't, it pretty much washes everything they established in MOS down the drain.

So... I hope Superman/Batman or whatever it's called is the movie we all want it to be (most of us anyway... the hell with people who WANT it to fail). But I think it would have been better to save a team-up for a Justice League movie or a World's Finest movie AFTER a true MOS sequel. That way, if JL, WF, or a new Batman series sucks, at least I might still have my MOS series to enjoy.

I'm likely the minority. LOVED MoS...hated the Dark Knight trilogy (as batman films)

 

[Marvin]

Now that is a scary thought - WB doesn't think Snyder and company botched things. It explains a lot though.

WB thinks Green Lantern was a Botch up. They don't think MOS was one.
Regardless of your letters to them.

 

[STARMAN]

There's no comparison between MOS and Green Lantern.

 

[Tra-El]

Ahh, another day in paradise!

 

[Loki882]

Oh please, comparing IM to twilight is the dumbest thing that I've ever heard. IM 1 was a great film, period. Why people feel the need to constantly take shots at Marvel in order to prop up DC and vice versa, I will never understand. TA was a great film, not Marvel Studios movie was objectively bad (I have issues with IM 2/3, but they weren't terrible). Also, I find the extreme pessimism over this to be astounding. It really does seem that no matter what the filmmakers do, people will find SOMEHING to complain about. We know very little about this movie, all of these criticisms are seriously jumping the gun.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I'm likely the minority. LOVED MoS...hated the Dark Knight trilogy (as batman films)

Damn, yeah that is in the minority!

Just to clarify though... are you saying you liked the Dark Knight movies as films but didn't think they worked as Batman movies? Just curious what made you think that. Was it the portrayal of Batman or something else?

 

[Loki882]

How were the Nolan films not Batman films exactly? There have been dozens of different takes on Batman, Nolan simply had one such take. There is no on Batman, but many.

 

[EssayM]

The apprehension on the part of fans might be due to the involvement of the guys who, unchecked, made Blade: Trinity and Sucker Punch, and are now without the oversight of the guy who made Inception and Memento (and before anyone tries to correct me, remember that Tim Burton was also "executive producer" on a superhero movie once).