Superman Returns Is SR a new victim of Hollywood´s insane budget escalation?

ultimatefan

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Let´s look at two recent blockbusters, King Kong and X3. At first sight, their box office is pretty impressive. One made 218m domestically, 550m worldwide. The other, 230m domestic, so far 436m worldwide. If you look at Superman Returns, the movie has made 146m in 12 days, an amount that would be far to reach by most movies. Yet, these numbers have been considered somewhat underwhelming. Why? Because these movies cost too damn much to make and advertise. There seems to be a trend now in Hollywood to make 200m-plus budget movies. The thing is, does it pay off to spend so much?

Of course before this there was Titanic, which back then was considered an "absurd" budget. As a trend, I´d say it started with Spidey 2. Because till maybe 2005, we were getting a whole buncha movie franchises making over 250m at the domestic BO and over 600m ww... LOTR, HP, Spidey, SW prequel trilogy, the Pixar movies, POTC, etc. There seemed to be a huge market for these superexpensive blockbusters.

But then again, in 2005, things started a significant shift downwards, and it´s getting worse. in 2004 at this point, four movies had done over 250m domestically and 600m ww. In 2005, only one, but in compensation several movies broke the 200m domestic barrier. So far, in 2006,no movie has yet broken the 250m mark and only three have already reached 200m. Overseas it´s a little brighter with two movies in the 600m ww, but this year there aren´t major holiday releases like HP, Narnia and Kong last year. Whether it´s the home viewing experience, lost of interest or whatever, the market today, especially in US, is not so friendly anymore to such expensive movies. of course there´s merchandise, DVDs, etc., but studios want to impress at the BO, it´s their calling card for the rest of the revenue. These budgets compensated for POTC2 and Spidey 2, but these are already established franchises. To take these chances with something untested at this point looks dangerous.

Then again, do these movies NEED to cost that much? Couldn´t have Peter Jackson, or Bryan Singer have properly told their stories without breaking the bank like that? Did all those animal shots in KK need to be as long and as many as they were? Did Singer have to shoot a scene in Krypton he didn´t even use in the theatrical movie? And did these movies really need to be so long? Wouldn´t they have been less expensive and better paced if they were kept close to the traditional two hours? A lot of last year´s biggest hits cost considerably less than 200m: Harry Potter, CATCF, Mr And Mrs Smith, Batman Begins (let´s not even get started on the Wedding Crashers phenomenon). Does the "you have to spend more to make more" philosophy really apply?

Things going like this, studios will have to either take better control of their budgets or they may have to work even harder on making their DVDs sell well, because the truth is, theatrical box office isn´t in great shape right now, and studios are making it seem even worse by spending more and more money on the movies.
 
Something is going to have to be done about these budgets. They can't keep growing or it's going to be like going to a sporting event with the ticket prices. I really didn't think that this movie looked like it had over 200 million spent on it.
 
ultimate,

When you write a script, you don't know how any of its going to play until you actually get into the editing room. I'm sure Singer was pretty sure that the Krypton sequence was going in. He wouldn't have filmed it otherwise.

When he got into the editing room to see how everything worked, that's when he realized. It happens all the time in films. You plan out an elaborate sequence that you just know it going in the film and then after seeing how it works with the rest of the film, you know that it just doesn't work with the story you're trying to tell.

Superman's search of Krypton was just one of those instances.

And 2 hours and 26 minutes is not long. Each Harry Potter film has averaged that length. Look how much they've made. If the Lord of the Rings films can average 3 plus hours in length and make the money it made, then you can't say long films don't work because recent history has shown that some do actually work.....


But, I do agree about the budget spending lately with the studios...as well as the actors salaries. It's gotten way out of control.
 
They gotta stop relying on CGI and go back to old fashioned stunt work. Nolan had no problem doing this with Begins. Understandably, things like Superman and Kong need more than normal stunt work. But I think crafty film makers can still make such movies without escalating special effects costs.
 
DA Harvey Dent said:
They gotta stop relying on CGI and go back to old fashioned stunt work. Nolan had no problem doing this with Begins. Understandably, things like Superman and Kong need more than normal stunt work. But I think crafty film makers can still make such movies without escalating special effects costs.

The problem is that there are a lot of cases where the mechanical SFX are actually more expensive than CGI.
 
it does make you kinda wonder where all the money is going, hek even the CG extravaganza that was the Star Wars Prequels didnt cost this much to film and they were what $100-150M a piece.....

although they did say that more set pieces does tend to drive the costs more than if it were done via CG. what i couldnt remember is was there a lot of sets in SR that would justify the budget? how many set pieces did they have?

1.) Kent farm
2.) Superman's ship
3.) Daily Planet
4.) Lex's ship
5.) Lois and Richard's home
6.) New Krypton
7.) The Airplane

am i missing any sets? that's not really a lot on that list, the rest of those were shot on location in Sydney. shouldnt that have made it cheaper?

maybe what SR experienced with budgeting is something like what The Empire Strikes Back experienced. folks knowing that this is a big movie started charging the film top dollar, you know what usually costs only $1 they charge $2.

unless there was so much CG shots that needed to get done.... but isnt that the reason they went with relatively less well known FX houses like Rhythm and Hues instead of going with ILM? although i see that they did have Sony Picture Imageworks, i guess the guys that got Spidey to swing so well taught the Man of Steel how to fly ;)
 
Steelsheen said:
it does make you kinda wonder where all the money is going, hek even the CG extravaganza that was the Star Wars Prequels didnt cost this much to film and they were what $100-150M a piece.....

although they did say that more set pieces does tend to drive the costs more than if it were done via CG. what i couldnt remember is was there a lot of sets in SR that would justify the budget? how many set pieces did they have?

1.) Kent farm
2.) Superman's ship
3.) Daily Planet
4.) Lex's ship
5.) Lois and Richard's home
6.) New Krypton
7.) The Airplane

am i missing any sets? that's not really a lot on that list, the rest of those were shot on location in Sydney. shouldnt that have made it cheaper?

maybe what SR experienced with budgeting is something like what The Empire Strikes Back experienced. folks knowing that this is a big movie started charging the film top dollar, you know what usually costs only $1 they charge $2.

unless there was so much CG shots that needed to get done.... but isnt that the reason they went with relatively less well known FX houses like Rhythm and Hues instead of going with ILM? although i see that they did have Sony Picture Imageworks, i guess the guys that got Spidey to swing so well taught the Man of Steel how to fly ;)

I'm actually starting to think that shooting with the Genesis camera (and thus Singer having to learn a new technology) had to do something in the budget.
 
DA Harvey Dent said:
They gotta stop relying on CGI and go back to old fashioned stunt work. Nolan had no problem doing this with Begins. Understandably, things like Superman and Kong need more than normal stunt work. But I think crafty film makers can still make such movies without escalating special effects costs.

I would have made a vow NEVER to make a CGI Superman. I know it would have been hard, but that's how we get better and more realistic stunt/wirework. The crew should have challenged themselves to this. To me, a slightly awkward ACTUAL guy in suit landing on the New Krypton with that huge crash would have been infinitely more convincing than an obviously fake, but maybe smoother CGI Superman.
 
Alot of Superman Returns' money went to special effects work, sets, costumes, and visual effects. The money was not wasted. Every penny is on the screen and Singer is the type of director that favors practical effects more than CG.

But, CG was needed in this film. So was model work. There's alot of model work in this film.

The money was well spent.
 
Solid,

You had to use CG with Superman Returns. There's no way you can do the airplane rescue sequence in the manner to which Singer did it without CG. It's impossible.
 
Alonsovich said:
I'm actually starting to think that shooting with the Genesis camera (and thus Singer having to learn a new technology) had to do something in the budget.

how many cameras did they say they used? it was in one of those BTN blogs, like 3 or 5 or something? how much from the budget did those gadgets take? it cant be more than 1/5 of the budget.
 
it's a victim of it's own self. POTC2 had a production budget of about $225 million. Plenty of big budget movies do well, when they dont their not a victim of their own budgets their a victim of their own content
 
btw, anybody knows how much that godawful suit cost?
 
J.Howlett said:
Solid,

You had to use CG with Superman Returns. There's no way you can do the airplane rescue sequence in the manner to which Singer did it without CG. It's impossible.

I understand, but I disagree. There is always a way to do things. There are plenty of moments in history when we were proven wrong when saying something can't be done.

Just for starters, they could have filmed Routh in a harness from a long shot, and had it move up and down and left and right over a great distance (as the blogs indicated they could do) and then incorporated that against the CGI plane. I'm of course no expert, but I am sure they could have whipped up something with a real actor. I just have such an acquired distaste for CGI.
 
Steelsheen said:
how many cameras did they say they used? it was in one of those BTN blogs, like 3 or 5 or something? how much from the budget did those gadgets take? it cant be more than 1/5 of the budget.

Six actually... and it's not about the gadget itself (which I'm pretty sure is much more expensive than a 35mm camera... basically because it's Panavision's latest big thing) but because of Singer having to learn how shooting and editing works with that technology, thus having more false takes than normal.
 
I would love to see a list of expenses for this movie. 200 million spent. Sin City looked better then this lets see the budget on that one.
 
Alonsovich said:
Six actually... and it's not about the gadget itself (which I'm pretty sure is much more expensive than a 35mm camera... basically because it's Panavision's latest big thing) but because of Singer having to learn how shooting and editing works with that technology, thus having more false takes than normal.

the genesis cameras.... they dont use film anymore right? if they got a shot wrong theres no film to waste, its all bytes.
 
Steelsheen said:
the genesis cameras.... they dont use film anymore right? if they got a shot wrong theres no film to waste, its all bytes.

Still, the actual time involved which translates to more pay for cast and crew as they're having to be on set longer for the bad takes and the downtime in figuring out how to use it (I'm oversimplifying).
 
Solid,

The problem with you example is time. Trying to work the wirework with Brandon and get the specific shots at the speed to which they were trying to show Superman would've been extremely difficult to do. CG is just faster to do in alot of aspects....

Again, there's alot of CG in the film but there's also alot of practical work and model work within the film.

The same is true for The Prequel Trilogy and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. It's just more invisible now than it ever was....

The traditional way of doing things will never go away. Model work for sets and environments is still faster and cheaper to do than doing it CG. The Spider-Man films are perfect examples of traditional stunt work.

These films makers, the Singers, the Lucas', the Spielbergs, the Jacksons', they still do traditional filmmaking. They just marry it with the new.
 
Scenes getting cut out happens all the time. Cameron started doing it where, when the studio told him the movie had to be this long (studios always do that. They dont jsut let directors turn in any old running time movi) he decided to cut out major sections and not to widle away here and there. The rule of thumb in Hollywood is a minute a page. Most studios will give a running time before the film even starts shooting, so he should have done what a lot of direectors do. merge scenes in the script and widdle it down there instead of in post.
 
Steelsheen said:
the genesis cameras.... they dont use film anymore right? if they got a shot wrong theres no film to waste, its all bytes.

That's the theory. From there to using it well is a big distance. There's even one of the blogs where Bryan actually gets worried because of it...
 
SolidSnakeMGS said:
Still, the actual time involved which translates to more pay for cast and crew as they're having to be on set longer for the bad takes and the downtime in figuring out how to use it (I'm oversimplifying).

Exactly what I was trying to say. If they have more bad takes than usual they have to make more waste of money because of cast and crew.
 
J.Howlett said:
Shooting on digital is cheaper and faster.

If you know how to do it. The thing is... this is Singer's first movie with digital. A lot of directors had problems with it the first time around. Just ask Robert Rodriguez or George Lucas...
 

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