Jack Kirby: Storyteller Documentary, this is why the old purist feel so strong

50yroldfffan

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Just got done watching the special feature
"Jack Kirby: Storyteller Documentary" it was worth the price of the Extended Edition.
I hope everybody at this forum sees it, I think it will help those who don't uderstand why the more mature (better then saying old ha ha) FF purist feel so strongly about stuff like the Things brow, the look of Doom or if Galactus will be in this movie, plus Kirby getting proper credit for his invention of the Silver Surfer and his huge contribution to the FF, the world of comics and it's extention now "movies".
And why things like pg ratings and 95 min times take away from what should have been a epic movie franchise or trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" but bigger. The FF sprang from the mind of a artistic genius and has been handled by people of less vision. So those who like to toss the word fanboy around like they're talking about pinko comies see the documentary and maybe you'll undertsand :-)
I will see the next movie and I hope it's great! and I've liked the small changes they've made to the Thing and the look of the Surfer but in my heart I know this could have been sssooooo much better lol.
 
Just got done watching the special feature
"Jack Kirby: Storyteller Documentary" it was worth the price of the Extended Edition.
I hope everybody at this forum sees it, I think it will help those who don't uderstand why the more mature (better then saying old ha ha) FF purist feel so strongly about stuff like the Things brow, the look of Doom or if Galactus will be in this movie, plus Kirby getting proper credit for his invention of the Silver Surfer and his huge contribution to the FF, the world of comics and it's extention now "movies".
And why things like pg ratings and 95 min times take away from what should have been a epic movie franchise or trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" but bigger. The FF sprang from the mind of a artistic genius and has been handled by people of less vision. So those who like to toss the word fanboy around like they're talking about pinko comies see the documentary and maybe you'll undertsand :-)

I agree with everything you said, except your opinion on the PG rating. I see no reason why Fantastic Four should be higher than PG or PG-13. F4 is the perfect family movie, in concept.
 
Just got done watching the special feature
"Jack Kirby: Storyteller Documentary" it was worth the price of the Extended Edition.
I hope everybody at this forum sees it, I think it will help those who don't uderstand why the more mature (better then saying old ha ha) FF purist feel so strongly about stuff like the Things brow, the look of Doom or if Galactus will be in this movie, plus Kirby getting proper credit for his invention of the Silver Surfer and his huge contribution to the FF, the world of comics and it's extention now "movies".
And why things like pg ratings and 95 min times take away from what should have been a epic movie franchise or trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" but bigger. The FF sprang from the mind of a artistic genius and has been handled by people of less vision. So those who like to toss the word fanboy around like they're talking about pinko comies see the documentary and maybe you'll undertsand :-)
I will see the next movie and I hope it's great! and I've liked the small changes they've made to the Thing and the look of the Surfer but in my heart I know this could have been sssooooo much better lol.

I understand everything that you've said.....but you have to also remember.....you watched that DVD from the perspective of a long time fan........fans of the actors, the movie, etc....that are not long time fans will watch it with a different perspective. YOUR perspective is YOUR truth....it's not necessarily someone else's truth....and both are important when looking at the MOVIE...
 
I understand everything that you've said.....but you have to also remember.....you watched that DVD from the perspective of a long time fan........fans of the actors, the movie, etc....that are not long time fans will watch it with a different perspective. YOUR perspective is YOUR truth....it not necessarily someone elses....
I don't recall him saying otherwise.
 
Qwerty©;11797965 said:
I don't recall him saying otherwise.


What????


I'm simply saying that what he sees as important to the movie, may not be that way to someone else...

I understood his point, which I said, I'm simply bringing up another point in the discussion...

One person watching this DVD, may not see any of that as "epic" they may see it as a fun comic in "it's" day....and they might have enjoyed the first movie, and see that the second "in their eyes" is epic.....

The vision of a fan of an actor/movie, whatever.....in many instances may be a very different vision of a "longtime fan of a comicbook"....that longtime fan has been running a movie in their head for decades in some cases....and when that movie doesn't show up on screen......they are not going to be happy........whereas the fan of the actor/movies goes in without a certain vision, and they enjoy the movie immensely......who's right, and who's wrong?........is there a right and wrong? its simply different perspectives....

Let me end in saying....I think both should be treated with respect in their opinions...and in BOTH cases, we have had instances where that was not the case...
 
What????


I'm simply saying that what he sees as important to the movie, may not be that way to someone else...

I understood his point, which I said, I'm simply bringing up another point in the discussion...

One person watching this DVD, may not see any of that as "epic" they may see it as a fun comic in "it's" day....and they might have enjoyed the first movie, and see that the second "in their eyes" is epic.....

The vision of a fan of an actor/movie, whatever.....in many instances may be a very different vision of a "longtime fan of a comicbook"....that longtime fan has been running a movie in their head for decades in some cases....and when that movie doesn't show up on screen......they are not going to be happy........whereas the fan of the actor/movies goes in without a certain vision, and they enjoy the movie immensely......who's right, and who's wrong?........is there a right and wrong? its simply different perspectives....

Let me end in saying....I think both should be treated with respect in their opinions...and in BOTH cases, we have had instances where that was not the case...
I know what you meant.

I'm just saying that his post said nothing about him being right and others being wrong, so what you said is kind of pointless.
 
What????


I'm simply saying that what he sees as important to the movie, may not be that way to someone else...

I understood his point, which I said, I'm simply bringing up another point in the discussion...

One person watching this DVD, may not see any of that as "epic" they may see it as a fun comic in "it's" day....and they might have enjoyed the first movie, and see that the second "in their eyes" is epic.....

The vision of a fan of an actor/movie, whatever.....in many instances may be a very different vision of a "longtime fan of a comicbook"....that longtime fan has been running a movie in their head for decades in some cases....and when that movie doesn't show up on screen......they are not going to be happy........whereas the fan of the actor/movies goes in without a certain vision, and they enjoy the movie immensely......who's right, and who's wrong?........is there a right and wrong? its simply different perspectives....

Let me end in saying....I think both should be treated with respect in their opinions...and in BOTH cases, we have had instances where that was not the case...

This brings into question the matter of judgment. Is there such a thing as right and wrong as regards to Tim Story's presentation of this movie. The answer is yes, there is, but how you arrive at that position is I think why Fox is having so much trouble with these movies.

The vision Tim brings to the movie is his vision, but he is not the creator of the characters. The creators deserve a lot of respect when evaluating the essence of what we will all see on the big screen come June 15th.

However the general audience will not be able to tell the difference between the Lee/Kirby/Buscema/Sinnot/Thomas/Bryne etc incarnations of the Fantastic Four.

All of these guys are contributors to the mythology of the Fantastic Four including Tim Story and Roger Corman.

However there is a definitive FF.

Experience is its own evaluator and those that are familiar with the the history of the FF have come to a consensus about what are the essential elements of the FF.

Marvel themselves have a series of Graphic novels on all their major heroes which they refer to as Essentials.

Time and experience have determined what those things are and those that have been around long enough can tell you what they are.

These essentials are the defining things that have resonated with the fans of these characters over time.

Now this is my argument. People are the same where ever you go. In other words they have very similar emotional and mental makeups.

Almost all men and women it seems seek to know what life is about.

And we find that life usually follows similar patterns. 90 % of us work, we eat, we get married and we die. There is hardly anything new that is under the sun.

Everything that was, is and will be.

So I think that when we have the benefit of experience and tried and true results we should maybe consider that there may be wisdom in going with what has been Tried and Found to be True.

Some essential elements that I think fall within these parameters for this movie series are like

The Thing's Brow.
The celebrated design of the classic characters such as Galactus.
The Powers of the Fantastic Four
The characterizations of the FF and comic book cast including the villains.


Wisdom says I think that when in doubt leave what has been found to work alone. When you ignore this maxim confusion and other bad stuff often happens. Our prime example of this was the characterization and dialog of Doctor Doom.

So we should know by now that when you have this wealth of references to draw on and examine, when you stray too far from the source problems can and often do arise.

Now Tim Story has said this very same thing. In prepping for the sequel they went back and looked at what worked and what did not.

I think the mistake a lot of the studios are making is that they do not sufficiently respect the original creators and the library of material that is available to them.

Because they may not think the two mediums are similar enough they may not seriously consider what worked in the comics as being a barometer for what will work in the movies.

I think that this is what is happening at Fox.

Now I actually think that Xmen is responsible for this situation with that company.

Singer's X-Men in my mind have very little semblance to the definitive or essential X-Men but the fans lapped it up. Why I do not know. That set the mold for what was to come with X3 (loved the pacing of that film by the way) and now that is the culture over there.

I think LS put it best, why in the world are they finding it so hard to get Doctor Doom right.

The answer is this: they really don't have a clear understanding of the essential Doctor Doom, what is right for that character.

The blame for this if it is still a major problem in the sequel will fall at the feet of Tim Story.

He is a fan and he must know what is essential.

For me the costume is close enough (I assume it was modified for movement) providing he has the kilt.

So in essence there is a right way I think because you have over 40 years of story telling to get it right or to determine what is bad, good and best.

By the way, the Fantasticar design by Flattery and Tim, that in my opinion can be added to the library of what works or could work in both the comics and the movie.


Thats my two sense on this whole discussion.
 
Just got done watching the special feature
"Jack Kirby: Storyteller Documentary" it was worth the price of the Extended Edition.
I hope everybody at this forum sees it, I think it will help those who don't understand why the more mature (better then saying old ha ha) FF purists feel so strongly about stuff like the Things brow, the look of Doom or if Galactus will be in this movie, plus Kirby getting proper credit for his invention of the Silver Surfer and his huge contribution to the FF, the world of comics and it's extention now "movies".
And why things like pg ratings and 95 min times take away from what should have been a epic movie franchise or trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" but bigger. The FF sprang from the mind of a artistic genius and has been handled by people of less vision. So those who like to toss the word fanboy around like they're talking about pinko comies see the documentary and maybe you'll undertsand :-)
I will see the next movie and I hope it's great! and I've liked the small changes they've made to the Thing and the look of the Surfer but in my heart I know this could have been sssooooo much better lol.

Not sure what your position is on the ratings issue, 50yroldfffan, and I'm reserving judgment on the running time, plus I think it remains to be seen just how much "vision" Don Payne and Tim Story (FF fans, remember) will bring to this sequel... But to everything else::up: :up: :up: :up:

We wouldn't have a Fantastic Four, much less a Fantastic Four movie, were it not for the singular, seminal creative genius of Jack Kirby.

I encourage all who love the FF characters, even if you've never read an FF comic book, to watch this portrait of KIrby's remarkable life and work. Fantastic Four was one corner of the immense comic book universe this man almost single-handedly created. From the co-creation of Captain America in the 1940's, to co-creating most of the Marvel stable of characters, this man was at the top of his game for over 30 years.
And not just superheroes; he also created Western adventures, Romance stories, Mob dramas - you name it.

As a kid, I hated Kirby's work at first, and it's telling that many of the great comics artists interviewed in this documentary tell a similar story. The unique power of Kirby's art is not something many of us could appreciate - or even comprehend- at first. But the more we looked at it, the more we came to realize this man (questionable anatomy and all) was doing something no one else could do, then or to this day.

But it was the portrait of the family man that impressed me the most.
For 12-14 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, the man would hole up in the dark basement of his home, quietly turning out (in massive quantities) work that would forever change the superhero genre and entertain millions for generations to come.

And apparently he still managed to be a good father and husband.
I found myself thinking, "They just don't make men like Jack Kirby anymore."

It's a great piece. Big kudos to Marvel and Fox for co-producing it.
 
.....
We wouldn't have a Fantastic Four, much less a Fantastic Four movie, were it not for the singular, seminal creative genius of Jack Kirby.

........

^^ Wow Malus, you and 50yearoldfan hit the nail on the head. It is the same with all of us. I got into FF at the time they were reprinting the Kirby issues in the 70s but I preferred the slicker artists like Buscema and Perez and Buckler. I thought their art superior to Kirby's but funny thing is that Kirby's art was more memorable and as I grew older and was able to look past his curious positions I found a dynamism and Heroic vibe emanating from his work. As my mind matured I was a able to perceive the genius of the man.

And eventually I realized why. He was the guy who originated the framework that so many copied from adding their own styles and anatomical correctness.

His art was the fresh creative creations. Theirs were the homages paid to his majestic images.

It is the difference between looking at creation when the morning stars all sang (early universe) together and seeing the galaxies and stars today in their relatively peaceful journeys through the heavens.

Kirby's majesty gave birth to much of what we see today. His structure is the one that many of the masters pay homage to.

They know as we do now that his was the creative genius along with Stan and others that lit the fire that became the House of ideas.

We are playing in the house that Stan and Jack and all the other greats built.
 
For those who haven't read it, I recommend "Tales To Astonish" (not the comicbook), by Ronin Ro, which gives an interesting perspective on Kirby over his career.
 
I agree, that's a pretty good book and it has some good insider stuff. But I am still waiting for Jack Kirby's assistant, Mark Evanier, to finish up his book. He worked for him for quite a few years back in the 70's and 80's as I recall. I got home late and I will have to watch this documentary tomorrow.
 
This brings into question the matter of judgment. Is there such a thing as right and wrong as regards to Tim Story's presentation of this movie. The answer is yes, there is, but how you arrive at that position is I think why Fox is having so much trouble with these movies.

The vision Tim brings to the movie is his vision, but he is not the creator of the characters. The creators deserve a lot of respect when evaluating the essence of what we will all see on the big screen come June 15th.

However the general audience will not be able to tell the difference between the Lee/Kirby/Buscema/Sinnot/Thomas/Bryne etc incarnations of the Fantastic Four.

All of these guys are contributors to the mythology of the Fantastic Four including Tim Story and Roger Corman.

However there is a definitive FF.

Experience is its own evaluator and those that are familiar with the the history of the FF have come to a consensus about what are the essential elements of the FF.

Marvel themselves have a series of Graphic novels on all their major heroes which they refer to as Essentials.

Time and experience have determined what those things are and those that have been around long enough can tell you what they are.

These essentials are the defining things that have resonated with the fans of these characters over time.

Now this is my argument. People are the same where ever you go. In other words they have very similar emotional and mental makeups.

Almost all men and women it seems seek to know what life is about.

And we find that life usually follows similar patterns. 90 % of us work, we eat, we get married and we die. There is hardly anything new that is under the sun.

Everything that was, is and will be.

So I think that when we have the benefit of experience and tried and true results we should maybe consider that there may be wisdom in going with what has been Tried and Found to be True.

Some essential elements that I think fall within these parameters for this movie series are like

The Thing's Brow.
The celebrated design of the classic characters such as Galactus.
The Powers of the Fantastic Four
The characterizations of the FF and comic book cast including the villains.


Wisdom says I think that when in doubt leave what has been found to work alone. When you ignore this maxim confusion and other bad stuff often happens. Our prime example of this was the characterization and dialog of Doctor Doom.

So we should know by now that when you have this wealth of references to draw on and examine, when you stray too far from the source problems can and often do arise.

Now Tim Story has said this very same thing. In prepping for the sequel they went back and looked at what worked and what did not.

I think the mistake a lot of the studios are making is that they do not sufficiently respect the original creators and the library of material that is available to them.

Because they may not think the two mediums are similar enough they may not seriously consider what worked in the comics as being a barometer for what will work in the movies.

I think that this is what is happening at Fox.

Now I actually think that Xmen is responsible for this situation with that company.

Singer's X-Men in my mind have very little semblance to the definitive or essential X-Men but the fans lapped it up. Why I do not know. That set the mold for what was to come with X3 (loved the pacing of that film by the way) and now that is the culture over there.

I think LS put it best, why in the world are they finding it so hard to get Doctor Doom right.

The answer is this: they really don't have a clear understanding of the essential Doctor Doom, what is right for that character.

The blame for this if it is still a major problem in the sequel will fall at the feet of Tim Story.

He is a fan and he must know what is essential.

For me the costume is close enough (I assume it was modified for movement) providing he has the kilt.

So in essence there is a right way I think because you have over 40 years of story telling to get it right or to determine what is bad, good and best.

By the way, the Fantasticar design by Flattery and Tim, that in my opinion can be added to the library of what works or could work in both the comics and the movie.


Thats my two sense on this whole discussion.


I guess the point I was trying to make and didn't make very well is.....

If someone does not particularly like the source material, but they loved the first movie, liked the first movie, enjoyed the first movie....etc.....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?

If someone is perfectly fine with how the interpretation of the source material, the lack of source material or whatever that they have seen in the 2nd movie.....and they end up enjoying, loving, liking the second movie....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?
 
I guess the point I was trying to make and didn't make very well is.....

If someone does not particularly like the source material, but they loved the first movie, liked the first movie, enjoyed the first movie....etc.....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?

If someone is perfectly fine with how the interpretation of the source material, the lack of source material or whatever that they have seen in the 2nd movie.....and they end up enjoying, loving, liking the second movie....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?

No they are not wrong, but that is at an individual level.

If you want to run with the law of averages and what would work best for the average fan you may be surprised to find that if you rely on experience you could actually come to a best case scenario of what is actually good, better and best.

This may not be a good example but democracy is a good example of how this works. It takes a poll at a given time and place to elect a president and the guy who gets the most votes is given the authority to govern.

Relying on a longstanding library of reference is a very similar thing. Each successful characterization or presentation of a character is essentially the equivalent of a vote.

The items that get the most votes should be the governing point of reference to guide the choices of say a director.

In the case of the things Brow for example it was something millions of fans bought into. In essence for a movie director those millions are basically your focus group.

So then why is it so hard to give the fans Doctor Doom's classic characterization.

Answer: The writer simply discarded the results of a 40 year old focus group called Fantastic Four fans.

It worked some with the FF movie but a lot of us think it could have been so much better.

The suits probably can't really connect with their inner childhood memory of how we received these characters. They may not have grown up with the FF and as such don't know how kids today will see a 20 ft humanoid dressed in purple, but we do cause we were there and Tim Story should, cause he was there.

The fans are not always right, but hey they are the ones who discovered and by their buying power voted for what was good and what was not.

It might be a good idea to listen to them sometimes.
 
It worked some with the FF movie but a lot of us think it could have been so much better.

"could have" are important words.

For "some" non-comic book fans the movie worked very well.


Bottomline for me is real simple.

Movie going IS an individual pleasure.....many movies I have found to be awesome.....my sister, sitting right next to wanted to walk out of. Ex. Babel.......but do I think she's wrong in her dislike of that movie. Nope, it is her individual opinion, and her perspective of watching the film was different from mine as well. That perspective is important, and what worked for you as a comicbook fan for 40+ years, just may not work on film.

I will say this, this is an argument we will never truly know the answer to......and thats ok. BUT do I want the fans of this comic to have a movie they can watch over and over again and enjoy. Yep, and I also want a movie, I can watch over and over again and enjoy. IF those 2 things can come together, awesome. If they can't, I want to enjoy the movie.....and for me to enjoy it as far as coming from the comics, I would rather it come from the Marvel Knights as a source material. Thats the other question, which series do you want.....some would say Ultimate, some would say MK, some would say the originals, some might say the Adventures.....again, persective. What glasses are ya lookin through?
 
I guess the point I was trying to make and didn't make very well is.....

If someone does not particularly like the source material, but they loved the first movie, liked the first movie, enjoyed the first movie....etc.....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?

If someone is perfectly fine with how the interpretation of the source material, the lack of source material or whatever that they have seen in the 2nd movie.....and they end up enjoying, loving, liking the second movie....are they wrong in their opinion of the movie?

No, I don't believe they're wrong for enjoying something.

The fault IMO is purely with the filmmakers not interpreting the source material properly. And there's nothing to say that the same people who enjoyed the first film would not have equally enjoyed it it, if not moreso if the material were fully translated. I mean I seriously doubt that had the "shaving cream" gag and Johnny's X-games appearance been replaced with establishing Doom as monarch of Latveria anyone would be complaining. And the fact that they're doing these things in the second film tells you TPTB realize they themselves were wrong.
 
This to me says everything. When we think of the greatest movie villains of all-time, Dr. Doom doesn't get mentioned in any discussion. However, Darth Vader, who is partly inspired by Doom, is mentioned in nearly all of them.

That to me is a shame. Dr. Doom is one of comics greatest villains (I think he is tied with Thanos for the best), and he deserved to be memorable. Mentioning the good parts of the first FF, Doom's name never comes up.

I think Doom was altered far too much, and should have been either saved for a sequel or worked in another way. The way they did it in FF was just not worthy of Doom.
 
This to me says everything. When we think of the greatest movie villains of all-time, Dr. Doom doesn't get mentioned in any discussion. However, Darth Vader, who is partly inspired by Doom, is mentioned in nearly all of them.

That to me is a shame. Dr. Doom is one of comics greatest villains (I think he is tied with Thanos for the best), and he deserved to be memorable. Mentioning the good parts of the first FF, Doom's name never comes up.

I think Doom was altered far too much, and should have been either saved for a sequel or worked in another way. The way they did it in FF was just not worthy of Doom.

Agreed......wholeheatedly.....but after reading the script, I did have a hope that in the end we would have a solid villain in the movie....that didn't happen either...
 
No, I don't believe they're wrong for enjoying something.

The fault IMO is purely with the filmmakers not interpreting the source material properly. And there's nothing to say that the same people who enjoyed the first film would not have equally enjoyed it it, if not moreso if the material were fully translated. I mean I seriously doubt that had the "shaving cream" gag and Johnny's X-games appearance been replaced with establishing Doom as monarch of Latveria anyone would be complaining. And the fact that they're doing these things in the second film tells you TPTB realize they themselves were wrong.


Very true...no argument there.
 
"could have" are important words.

For "some" non-comic book fans the movie worked very well.


Bottomline for me is real simple.

Movie going IS an individual pleasure.....many movies I have found to be awesome.....my sister, sitting right next to wanted to walk out of. Ex. Babel.......but do I think she's wrong in her dislike of that movie. Nope, it is her individual opinion, and her perspective of watching the film was different from mine as well. That perspective is important, and what worked for you as a comicbook fan for 40+ years, just may not work on film.

I will say this, this is an argument we will never truly know the answer to......and thats ok. BUT do I want the fans of this comic to have a movie they can watch over and over again and enjoy. Yep, and I also want a movie, I can watch over and over again and enjoy. IF those 2 things can come together, awesome. If they can't, I want to enjoy the movie.....and for me to enjoy it as far as coming from the comics, I would rather it come from the Marvel Knights as a source material. Thats the other question, which series do you want.....some would say Ultimate, some would say MK, some would say the originals, some might say the Adventures.....again, persective. What glasses are ya lookin through?

Yeah the process itself can be very arbitrary and picking what elements and characteristics would work best is a very painstaking endeavor; especially when you have over 40 years of stories and volumes skewed towards an Ultimate Marvel Audience or a Marvel Knights audience.

For instance I found the MK issues to have a more middle America soccer mom feeling. Ultimate Marvel seems aimed at the college crowd, and so on. My interpretations may be way off but clearly there is a lot of stuff to reference.

On an individual level I also enjoyed the first movie, but I am easy to please.

I think deep down I hunger for the Fantastic Four to be as huge as Spiderman. In my mind they really started it all and in the house of ideas they were relegated to almost second tier status as Xmania took over for many years.

I guess I always really believed that they were the world's greatest comic. So in every way I also want them to be the greatest comic book movie.

FF was ok to me but I feel it could have been so much more.

That is my individual and honest opinion.
 
For instance I found the MK issues to have a more middle America soccer mom feeling. Ultimate Marvel seems aimed at the college crowd, and so on. My interpretations may be way off but clearly there is a lot of stuff to reference.

Yeah, middle america soccer mom's always go the house of one of their employees to give their "wife-beating" husband a piece of her superpowered mind......:cwink:
 
"could have" are important words.

For "some" non-comic book fans the movie worked very well.


Bottomline for me is real simple.

Movie going IS an individual pleasure.....many movies I have found to be awesome.....my sister, sitting right next to wanted to walk out of. Ex. Babel.......but do I think she's wrong in her dislike of that movie. Nope, it is her individual opinion, and her perspective of watching the film was different from mine as well. That perspective is important, and what worked for you as a comicbook fan for 40+ years, just may not work on film.

I will say this, this is an argument we will never truly know the answer to......and thats ok. BUT do I want the fans of this comic to have a movie they can watch over and over again and enjoy. Yep, and I also want a movie, I can watch over and over again and enjoy. IF those 2 things can come together, awesome. If they can't, I want to enjoy the movie.....and for me to enjoy it as far as coming from the comics, I would rather it come from the Marvel Knights as a source material. Thats the other question, which series do you want.....some would say Ultimate, some would say MK, some would say the originals, some might say the Adventures.....again, persective. What glasses are ya lookin through?
glad to see my post has added to the debate, I posted it hoping those who haven't seen the documentary on Jack Kirby in the Extended Edition would be inspired to do so for several reasons.
First to help those who like to belittle the passion some of us have for the 60's comic and the angst we feel when we see how poorly things were done in the first flix understand where the passion comes from (see the docu).
Second for me it's a matter of education, when you see great artist after great artist voice their experiance and self discovery of Jacks work and the power and honesty he brought to the field my hope is you all will understand the passion.
I read a post at this sight were someone said for some of us the early ff was "just cheap pulp fiction" and they didn't mean because it was 12 cents at the time ha ha. Those are the words of the uneducated and I mean that in the nicest way.
You either get it right away or you go back and read the early books to discover the magic in the art and story telling and you get it later.
Magic we hoped would be captured in the first movie and I say this as a film buff not as stary eyed old ff fan, I know good when I see it and the first one was just passing I don't care how much money it made.
And please don't talk to me about other periods of the ff saga none and I mean NONE! have had the power of those mid 60's stories. if they had they would be making a movie and a docu about those stories and they are not :-)
I would agree movie going is a individual pleasure but the experiance can be inhanced or sadly degraded when you understand the source or background of the movie your watching. Now that might sound like the argument ignorance is bliss but at this forum it's disrespectfull to one of the greatest artist of our time.
It's like looking at a painting you've never seen before your mind will try to interpet what is is seeing but later when you undertsand the artist motivation you come to see it in a whole new light.
Thats all I want here is to pass on the light (watch the docu) lol
 
Yeah the process itself can be very arbitrary and picking what elements and characteristics would work best is a very painstaking endeavor; especially when you have over 40 years of stories and volumes skewed towards an Ultimate Marvel Audience or a Marvel Knights audience.

For instance I found the MK issues to have a more middle America soccer mom feeling. Ultimate Marvel seems aimed at the college crowd, and so on. My interpretations may be way off but clearly there is a lot of stuff to reference.

On an individual level I also enjoyed the first movie, but I am easy to please.

I think deep down I hunger for the Fantastic Four to be as huge as Spiderman. In my mind they really started it all and in the house of ideas they were relegated to almost second tier status as Xmania took over for many years.

I guess I always really believed that they were the world's greatest comic. So in every way I also want them to be the greatest comic book movie.

FF was ok to me but I feel it could have been so much more.

That is my individual and honest opinion.
this is not just your opinion it's the opinion of many who are not at this forum. I've said this before ff should have been a babyboom franchise, Harry (the guy every body loves to hate) understood this and he and many others new the gold of this franchise was the 60's stories and I don't mean just setting it in the 60's I mean the heart. Tim and company tried to find the heart but they got to caught up on trying to make it contempory to our time and they misssed the mark. Some times you get these creative people and designers working on a project and they begin to strip away with words like "the public will not buy this" and they lose what made a source great (example.. Doom looking like a doorman in his fancy coat lol)
Your belief that this was the greatest comic is totaly founded there hasn't been a run like it since. And by run I mean by the artist and writer both, they were at the top of their game. Nothing wrong with wishing the first FF flix to be the same :-) now lets hope the second one gets closer to the bullseye.
 
Yeah, middle america soccer mom's always go the house of one of their employees to give their "wife-beating" husband a piece of her superpowered mind......:cwink:

Hey I love soccer moms, and many a soccer coach has felt their wrath when Johnny comes home and announces they were kicked off the team. :cwink:
 

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