Guardians of the Galaxy James gunn fired!!! - Part 1

[DarthSkywalker]

Saying its Thursday when it is Saturday is a stupid tweet. Racism (Rosanne) and what Gunn wrote aren't stupid. They are beyond that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, my issue is the normalizing of behavior that resulted in their being two sides in the first place. The idea that it is okay to be awful, and because you yourself are trying to empathetic, you need to live with awfulness. If a person can't look at racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. and not realize it is a problem, I can't look that person in the face and tell them it's all good. I am not going to continually extend a hand to someone who thinks its okay to tell me to die because of the color of my skin. That's saying things that make women I know uncomfortable is okay, because its not okay. I empathize, but with victims. Not with people who are perpetrators nor those who support them and allow them to exist.

Even in this example with James Gunn, he doesn't see that either. He is not okay with that culture, which is what got him in trouble in the first place. And if anything, I support that from him. That he has been making an effort online to fight back against that, even if it wasn't in the most civil way all the time.

Here is where I disagree with you, Darth. I agree these things shouldn't be tolerated, and in some cases removal is the answer. My issue is that it shouldn't be the default. As with even laws like rap and murder, there are degrees and we need to decide if action X warrants that type of punishment (which is easy on a Harvey Weinstein but murkier in this case IMO). I support what these movements strive for, but to this point, the outrage is uncoordinated and ill-defined. That needs changed. We've defined change is needed, and that is good. But we've not really moved on to step 2 on how to fix the problem. The default is just direct outrage to person X until they've been destroyed and move on to the next target. That is not the best way to do this. Successful protests and movements implement methods and strategies to achieve a goal. That needs to happen.

Is someone telling you to die due to your skin color okay? 100% no, but societal change is not best implemented by removing the problem people. That is only going to fuel someone else's fire and keep the endless cycle going. Even people like MLK saw that. You need to provide people education and put them in positions to change (or have in motion change for future generations). Challenge their preconceived bias. Just removing every racist from the world won't do anyone any good. It will just devolve into a mad scramble for power and for the next target. Same thing applies to everyone ever with a bad tweet in their lives. If we don't afford people second chances, then where is the incentive to change?

Am I saying you need to extend infinite chances to people? No. I am not even saying you need to like anyone or agree with them. But what I am saying is understanding why people think a certain way is the best way to find out how to prove them wrong and change the way society thinks. Doctors looks for symptoms to diagnose a disease, correct? So if something like racism is a disease in society, the cure lies in finding the root cause and working on cures. But not all these are equal or cause by the same thing in all people, so that will require some basic analysis of person X to see if you can convince them otherwise.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Saying its Thursday when it is Saturday is a stupid tweet. Racism (Rosanne) and what Gunn wrote aren't stupid. They are beyond that.

I agree with this. Which is why if Gunn had been punished around when it happened, that would have been one thing for me. But given the time frame and how it evolved, I just can't agree with it in Gunn's case. I just don't think going back several years and punishing a person is right. This is why I agree with what happened to Rosanne, but not Gunn.

 

[Zarex]

The issue here is not #MeToo. The issue here is that James Gunn decided to write this stuff in the first place. Even according to him, it was wrong. Why do you ignore that part?

I mentioned #MeToo because it was referenced in the Variety article as a reason for his firing. Did you not read the article? Did you not understand why I referenced it? Did you not read that I called his "jokes" (I even used quotation marks!) gross and inappropriate in many of my posts? Can you not see that I agree that his past behavior was wrong, but think this retroactive punishment is ridiculous?

It amazes me that you wrote that to a female poster, knowing that Gunn has plenty of "jokes" about raping women. Especially as in the post you quoted brings up James Gunn writing about Tony Stark ****ing Batwoman straight was clearly an issue. Especially for the poster with the Batwoman avatar. Maybe it isn't just the children that people are looking out for.

I have no idea who is or is not a female or male poster and I tend not to pay attention to avatars. But feel free to shame me for treating a fellow poster like an individual and not a member of a protected class.

And yeah, you totally went with locker room talk. Amazing.

Do you understand the difference between joking about something that didn't happen and a sexual assault that you initiated?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Here is where I disagree with you, Darth. I agree these things shouldn't be tolerated, and in some cases removal is the answer. My issue is that it shouldn't be the default. As with even laws like rap and murder, there are degrees. I support what these movements strive for, but to this point, the outrage is uncoordinated and ill-defined. That needs changed. We've defined change is needed, and that is good. But we've not really moved on to step 2 on how to fix the problem. The default is just direct outrage to person X until they've been destroyed and move on to the next target. That is not the best way to do this. Successful protests and movements implement methods and strategies to achieve a goal. That needs to happen.

Is someone telling you to die due to your skin color okay? 100% no, but societal change is not best implemented by removing the problem people. That is only going to fuel someone else's fire and keep the endless cycle going. Even people like MLK saw that. You need to provide people education and put them in positions to change (or have in motion change for future generations). Challenge their preconceived bias. Just removing every racist from the world won't do anyone any good. It will just devolve into a mad scramble for power and for the next target. Same thing applies to everyone ever with a bad tweet in their lives. If we don't afford people second chances, then where is the incentive to change?

Am I saying you need to extend infinite chances to people? No. I am not even saying you need to like anyone or agree with them. But what I am saying is understanding why people think a certain way is the best way to find out how to prove them wrong and change the way society thinks. Doctors looks for symptoms to diagnose a disease, correct? So if something like racism is a disease in society, the cure lies in finding the root cause and working on cures. But not all these are equal or cause by the same thing in all people, so that will require some basic analysis of person X to see if you can convince them otherwise.

There is an assumption that people don't know why racist do what they do. What misogynist do what they do. Why bigots in general do what they do. There are essays and books devoted to these things. It is why it weaponized in the first place. Like what Trump is doing isn't new.

This is a discussion of morality. Is the idea that to be a good person requires incentive? Because in that case, that isn't "doing the right thing". But even beyond that, the idea here is that people who won't look at facts, you have to educate them. How do you do that?

There is the idea that you need to lead people to water, but you can't make them drink. I get that. But the only reason any progress was made in the 60s on Civil Rights was forced integration. In this situation someone like Disney, the NFL, or anyone else looking at someone and telling them an issue is not okay, that they won't employ them, matters. Look at Ohio State right now. Look at Urban Meyer. This is a man who knew a woman was being beaten by her husbands for years, and he just kept a man employed. What does that get the victim? What does that do for society? Does that help the fight against abuse to women?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I agree with this. Which is why if Gunn had been punished around when it happened, that would have been one thing for me. But given the time frame and how it evolved, I just can't agree with it in Gunn's case. I just don't think going back several years and punishing a person is right. This is why I agree with what happened to Rosanne, but not Gunn.

As I have said, I agree with the firing, but I wouldn't have lost my mind if they kept him and I don't even think I would be all that bothered by them rehiring him. But I am not big on the minimizing that seems to go with this situation (not you here). I know people that just don't like Gunn and it is because of what he did in the past, and how his GotG movies doesn't necessarily show he has changed in that regard. And I think it is completely fair for them to think he has finally gotten his just desserts.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There is an assumption that people don't know why racist do what they do. What misogynist do what they do. Why bigots in general do what they do. There are essays and books devoted to these things. It is why it weaponized in the first place. Like what Trump is doing isn't new.

This is a discussion of morality. Is the idea that to be a good person requires incentive? Because in that case, that isn't "doing the right thing". But even beyond that, the idea here is that people who won't look at facts, you have to educate them. How do you do that?

There is the idea that you need to lead people to water, but you can't make them drink. I get that. But the only reason any progress was made in the 60s on Civil Rights was forced integration. In this situation someone like Disney, the NFL, or anyone else looking at someone and telling them an issue is not okay, that they won't employ them, matters. Look at Ohio State right now. Look at Urban Meyer. This is a man who knew a woman was being beaten by her husbands for years, and he just kept a man employed. What does that get the victim? What does that do for society? Does that help the fight against abuse to women?

I only just heard about Urban Meyer (I am an Ohio guy, so I grew up very much rooting for OSU), but that issue is different for me than Gunn because it seems like he was involved in covering it up. That takes wrong doing to another step. Ohio State did something very wrong, and you won't get an argument from me on that. But that goes back to my statement on degrees. Not only did he seemingly know something wrong happened, but he was doing more wrong to cover something he knew was wrong. So you're right, things like that need to change. But we're also dealing with an issue of someone being physically abused in that case. That is a little different than inappropriate jokes.

As for the issue of having people look at facts, some people are stubborn. But you need to speak their language and get them to understand it in their terms. Stats and stuff may not be the answer on that person. But that doesn't mean they cannot be reached. Like if I am a school teacher, I cannot assume all children learn the same way, right? Some learn visually, other hands on, etc. People are learning everyday they're alive. You just need to figure out how to reach them.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mentioned #MeToo because it was referenced in the Variety article as a reason for his firing. Did you not read the article? Did you not understand why I referenced it? Did you not read that I called his "jokes" (I even used quotation marks!) gross and inappropriate in many of my posts? Can you not see that I agree that his past behavior was wrong, but think this retroactive punishment is ridiculous?

I read it. But you are now blaming a movement for what Gunn did. That is Gunn's fault. No one in any movement made him write a damn word he wrote. And you can talk about saying you said it was gross and inappropriate but as you continually make lite of what he said, it rings false.

I have no idea who is or is not a female or male poster and I tend not to pay attention to avatars. But feel free to shame me for treating a fellow poster like an individual and not a member of a protected class.

This is about your minimizing of anything to do with this by going, "oh think of the children effected by Gunn's twitter". Maybe while fighting your courageous, overzealous fight for the protected class that you have placed Gunn into, that perhaps some people do in fact have a problem with him making lite of something that has been used to justify raping gay women. Because even Gunn figured that out.

Do you understand the difference between joking about something that didn't happen and a sexual assault that you initiated?

Do you understand stuff like this breeds the culture? Black face was comedy. It went out of style. Why do you think that is?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I only just heard about Urban Meyer (I am an Ohio guy, so I grew up very much rooting for OSU), but that issue is different for me than Gunn because it seems like he was involved in covering it up. That takes wrong doing to another step. Ohio State did something very wrong, and you won't get an argument from me on that. But that goes back to my statement on degrees. Not only did he seemingly know something wrong happened, but he was doing more wrong to cover something he knew was wrong. So you're right, things like that need to change. But we're also dealing with an issue of someone being physically abused in that case. That is a little different than inappropriate jokes.

As for the issue of having people look at facts, some people are stubborn. But you need to speak their language and get them to understand it in their terms. Stats and stuff may not be the answer on that person. But that doesn't mean they cannot be reached. Like if I am a school teacher, I cannot assume all children learn the same way, right? Some learn visually, other hands on, etc. People are learning everyday they're alive. You just need to figure out how to reach them.

I am not referencing this in terms of Gunn. It was on the alt-right. That isn't Gunn.

What I am not a fan of in what you are saying in the second part is that it removes responsibility of those who are hateful. Who hurt people. With Gunn, the idea is that he bettered himself. That is the idea of why he shouldn't be in trouble, right?

With Meyer, what if his answer was he thought he was helping the family by keeping him employed? Giving him incentive to not do it?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am not referencing this in terms of Gunn. It was on the alt-right. That isn't Gunn.

What I am not a fan of in what you are saying in the second part is that it removes responsibility of those who are hateful. Who hurt people. With Gunn, the idea is that he bettered himself. That is the idea of why he shouldn't be in trouble, right?

I'm not removing responsibility from those who are hateful. But at the same time, doing nothing to correct the problem and letting it fester won't solve it either. Is it maybe unfair that this is a responsibility seemingly on those who don't have hateful attitudes? Sure it is, but that's also the reality. Nothing is going to change unless those viewpoints are challenged.

But yes, with Gunn I do feel he changed given how he has handled himself after being fired and the fact he basically decided to stop doing these things seemingly on his own (maybe Disney told him to back in 2012, who knows...but we have no proof if that happened and in general I like to be a positive person, so I go with the more positive option).

I didn't see you edit before replying, but with Urban Meyer, that coach did something illegal. That is something that he should have reported to the police and let the legal system deal with it. That is something we have hard rules in place for. Inappropriate jokes are not illegal and the rules on them are not defined in the same way.

 

[Zarex]

I read it. But you are now blaming a movement for what Gunn did. That is Gunn's fault. No one in any movement made him write a damn word he wrote. And you can talk about saying you said it was gross and inappropriate but as you continually make lite of what he said, it rings false.

I criticized the (false) connection, not the movement. I am making light of the (over)reaction, not the comments.

Do you understand stuff like this breeds the culture? Black face was comedy. It went out of style. Why do you think that is?

I'm waiting for the petition to remove Ted Danson from The Good Place. Thanks to the alt right and their far left enablers, I wouldn't be surprised if it is coming.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I criticized the (false) connection, not the movement. I am making light of the (over)reaction, not the comments.



I'm waiting for the petition to remove Ted Danson from The Good Place. Thanks to the alt right and their far left enablers, I wouldn't be surprised if it is coming.

Is there something with Ted Danson I am unaware of?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not removing responsibility from those who are hateful. But at the same time, doing nothing to correct the problem and letting it fester won't solve it either. Is it maybe unfair that this is a responsibility seemingly on those who don't have hateful attitudes? Sure it is, but that's also the reality. Nothing is going to change unless those viewpoints are challenged.

But yes, with Gunn I do feel he changed given how he has handled himself after being fired and the fact he basically decided to stop doing these things seemingly on his own (maybe Disney told him to back in 2012, who knows...but we have no proof if that happened and in general I like to be a positive person, so I go with the more positive option).

I didn't see you edit before replying, but with Urban Meyer, that coach did something illegal. That is something that he should have reported to the police and let the legal system deal with it. That is something we have hard rules in place for. Inappropriate jokes are not illegal and the rules on them are not defined in the same way.

Yes. So why let the environment which fosters such behavior endure?

I am confused. You said yesterday that you didn't believe Disney didn't know. Do you think if they did know, they wouldn't have told him he can't do that anymore?

That isn't the issue with Meyer. I don't believe he needed to report it to the police, as it was reported to the police by her calling the police. And I am not talking about Meyer in comparison to Gunn. That is strictly to the idea of incentive.

 

[Zarex]

Is there something with Ted Danson I am unaware of?

Danson appeared in blackface at a Friar's Club comedy roast of his (then girlfriend) Whoopi Goldberg.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I criticized the (false) connection, not the movement. I am making light of the (over)reaction, not the comments.



I'm waiting for the petition to remove Ted Danson from The Good Place. Thanks to the alt right and their far left enablers, I wouldn't be surprised if it is coming.

Let's be clear. There is an obvious connection. Rape jokes are not en vogue in the era of #MeToo. In a situation where it is obvious such behavior has helped foster such behavior, that make sense. That some don't agree is their prerogative. I understand Disney's thinking if that is true. I think it is utter BS the idea that he is some sort of pedophilia himself based on what was written. But that doesn't mean his tweets aren't apart of a culture that #MeToo is against. Because it is. Which is exactly why Gunn would have apologized in the first place.

Why do you think black face went out of style, Zarex?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Danson appeared in blackface at a Friar's Club comedy roast of his (then girlfriend) Whoopi Goldberg.

Would you like to read the reaction to what he did that day, even in 1993? Because I feel like you are leaving that out. Which is exactly why black face is not a thing anymore.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes. So why let the environment which fosters such behavior endure?

I'm not saying to let them endure. But as I noted, removing everyone with that attitude won't be the fix for it either. You have to cure treat the person (in this case people).

I am confused. You said yesterday that you didn't believe Disney didn't know. Do you think if they did know, they wouldn't have told him he can't do that anymore?

I have no doubt they did know, but the question becomes did he stop because Disney told him to or did he make that decision on his own? I am willing to give Gunn the benefit of the doubt on this front. Disney I am sure knew about it, but how much did they care? 2 different things.

That isn't the issue with Meyer. I don't believe he needed to report it to the police, as it was reported to the police by her calling the police. And I am not talking about Meyer in comparison to Gunn. That is strictly to the idea of incentive.

Incentive doesn't have to be a dirty word. It doesn't have to mean be a good boy and you get ice cream. My point is if people say you did X and we will never let you forget it, then they won't even get a chance to have any personal incentive to change. Because they will always be the guy that did X. Branding someone with an invisible scarlet letter is not a fix and will in most cases just make people become bitter and give up trying. That is my point. But again, there are degree to my level of forgiveness. OSU coach guy deserves a formal, legal punishment.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Danson appeared in blackface at a Friar's Club comedy roast of his (then girlfriend) Whoopi Goldberg.

I read an article about it just now. Yeah, what he did was bad. Very bad. But it was 1993. I also don't want to judge 2018 Ted Danson on something he did back then, and I am sure was ripped apart for. So again, very inappropriate. Like, so very inappropriate. But over 20 years ago and just falls under the bad taste category. If that was more recent, my attitude would be different.

 

[Zarex]

Let's be clear. There is an obvious connection. Rape jokes are not en vogue in the era of #MeToo. In a situation where it is obvious such behavior has helped foster such behavior, that make sense. That some don't agree is their prerogative. I understand Disney's thinking if that is true. I think it is utter BS the idea that he is some sort of pedophilia himself based on what was written. But that doesn't mean his tweets aren't apart of a culture that #MeToo is against. Because it is. Which is exactly why Gunn would have apologized in the first place.

Why do you think black face went out of style, Zarex?

It went out of style for the reason a lot of comedy that was deliberately demeaning or hurtful is no longer considered acceptable, like some of Gunn's material. I also believe people should be forgiven for their past foolishness if they are truly sorry and no longer behave in that manor.

Should Ted Danson and Jimmy Kimmel be removed from their current positions for their past adventures in greasepaint? Should folks no longer hire Billy Crystal? Or should we forgive them? And if we should forgive them, should we extend the same courtesy to Mr. Gunn?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not saying to let them endure. But as I noted, removing everyone with that attitude won't be the fix for it either. You have to cure treat the person (in this case people).

I am specifically talking about the idea that making lite of rape, racism, etc. breeds an environment where it thrives.

I have no doubt they did know, but the question becomes did he stop because Disney told him to or did he make that decision on his own? I am willing to give Gunn the benefit of the doubt on this front. Disney I am sure knew about it, but how much did they care? 2 different things.

Okay. You think they knew, he got called out for the blog post, and they didn't have a discussion with him about it? I am not saying he didn't change, but I find that highly improbable.

Incentive doesn't have to be a dirty word. It doesn't have to mean be a good boy and you get ice cream. My point is if people say you did X and we will never let you forget it, then they won't even get a chance to have any personal incentive to change. Because they will always be the guy that did X. Branding someone with an invisible scarlet letter is not a fix and will in most cases just make people become bitter and give up trying. That is my point. But again, there are degree to my level of forgiveness. OSU coach guy deserves a formal, legal punishment.

What about the incentive of not being branded as such by not doing these things in the first place? And I am not trying to be obtuse here. But if we are talking degrees, nothing awful happened to Gunn. He has his friends with him, he will work again. So in that regard, he has incentive to keep going on a good path.

Spider-Fan, do you know the Urban Meyer story? Can you read it now. I am not sure what you think happened in that situation.

 

[Schlosser85]

I remember Bill Clinton also got flack for playing saxophone on Leno or Letterman (I think) wearing a big afro.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It went out of style for the reason a lot of comedy that was deliberately demeaning or hurtful is no longer considered acceptable, like some of Gunn's material. I also believe people should be forgiven for their past foolishness if they are truly sorry and no longer behave in that manor.

Should Ted Danson and Jimmy Kimmel be removed from their current positions for their past adventures in greasepaint? Should folks no longer hire Billy Crystal? Or should we forgive them? And if we should forgive them, should we extend the same courtesy to Mr. Gunn?

And again with the downplaying, this time with blackface. Boiling blackface down to "adventures in greasepaint" divorces it from the gross, dehumanizing history of it. You can preach forgiveness without downplaying the act. In fact, Gunn's entire argument is he changed. But the way you argue this, it wouldn't even matter if he did. If he never apologized.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am specifically talking about the idea that making lite of rape, racism, etc. breeds an environment where it thrives.

Which is a fair point to make, but I still feel there are degrees to dealing with these scenarios and it involves degree of what the person actually did or said. Context does matter. Someone like Harvey Weinstein needed removed for example.

Okay. You think they knew, he got called out for the blog post, and they didn't have a discussion with him about it? I am not saying he didn't change, but I find that highly improbable.

I tend to believe it through the fact the cast and such all say he is a sweetheart and seem to love the guy. There is no indication of anything improper on set or anything like that, so I tend to believe him based on that.

What about the incentive of not being branded as such by not doing these things in the first place? And I am not trying to be obtuse here. But if we are talking degrees, nothing awful happened to Gunn. He has his friends with him, he will work again. So in that regard, he has incentive to keep going on a good path.

Spider-Fan, do you know the Urban Meyer story? Can you read it now. I am not sure what you think happened in that situation.

The gist I get is his wife knew that the other coaches wife was abused, and she said she would tell Urban and effectively nothing was done with that claim, correct? Which is basically, covering it up assuming Urban knew (which I have no doubts he did). That is wrong.

 

[Schlosser85]

There's a quote from Stephen Fry I saw once, that I think more people should take to heart.


Basically, just because you, personally, find something offensive, doesn't mean you're owed anything.


The whole Twitter/Tumblr/Instagram mob could stand to learn that.

 

[Zarex]

And again with the downplaying, this time with blackface. Boiling blackface down to "adventures in greasepaint" divorces it from the gross, dehumanizing history of it. You can preach forgiveness without downplaying the act. In fact, Gunn's entire argument is he changed. But the way you argue this, it wouldn't even matter if he did. If he never apologized.

I'm using creative language, not downplaying the act. Ughh.

I'm done with this conversation. I criticized Gunn's tweets, but NOT STRONGLY ENOUGH. I critizicized the use of blackface, but I DOWNPLAYED THE HISTORY. I support the #METOO movement, but HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT THE MOVEMENT IF YOU DO NOT LINK IT TO EVERY BAD THING EVERY MAN HAS EVER DONE?

It's hard to see why movements for social justice so often lose supporters and fizzle out.