Discussion in 'The Amazing Spider-Man' started by Thread Manager, Nov 17, 2012.
Anyone who thinks Bane is one of the all time great villians is kidding themselves.
Bane Broke Batman's Back
Rather than flashbacks, I want Peter to find out about Electro's origin by his own.
I'd rather they skip the Electro origin altogether. Anything that isn't directly driving the story should be cut, Webb and co are spinning too many plates as it is.
Yes but no one continued the discussion
The thing about why I consider Electro as Spidey's Riddler is because that's pretty much who Edward Nygma was: this "disgruntled employee" who eventually loses himself into his moniker; instead of being "the ultimate foe" both are right up there as traditional supervillains and I think that's a great place to build up a story on. I mean, we don't really see supervillains of that sort in recent films anyway: Magneto, Ra's Al Ghul etc. all exist in such a grey area that it almost feels as though the film-makers are encouraging the audience to make up their own minds about heroism and villainy; Doc Ock, Sandman, Lizard, Smallville's Lex Luthor, Two-Face, are all "sympathetic" figures; the Iron Man villains are too one-dimensional to the point where you don't care about them; the Joker and Loki are absolutes; Bane's a monster-as-a-political-dictator; and the Abomination is... well... another monster.
The truly classical "supervillains" that pop out of the zany and colourful world of the comics has been Goblin, Red-Skull, and the mad-scientist Hector from GL. Yes they aren't as critically revered as the Joker or Doc Ock, but that's because those movies had problems of their own. What I loved in particular about The First Avenger was how much it felt like a comic-book, same with SM1. I get that this trilogy isn't going in that direction but even in The Dark Knight they didn't forget that these are still essentially superhero movies that are larger-than-life. Scarecrow becomes a "supervillain drug-dealer," Lau, while being a "glorified accountant" is operating on a level that you don't expect a real-life mob-accountant to deal with. Each of these villains pushes their entire world to this heightened/extreme level of reality. Webb's Spidey series has that potential but he lost that subtlety with the Lizard. It's a precarious balance: on one side you can't go too far that the character ceases to be a supervillain and on the other you can't go too deep that he stops being believable. At the same time the traditional "supervillain" doesn't necessarily have to represent an absolute concept like the Joker and Loki do, but what he should take from the Joker and Loki is the idea that they took their gimmicks and went to a larger-than-life extremity with them. Does... that make sense at all?
The MTV Electro was again a sympathetic figure, but that was on the first half of the show, he later became so twisted in his logic that you stopped sympathising with the guy. He was using his "tragedy" as an excuse to fuel his own immoral deeds. I want something like that with Electro.
I think there was something really poetic about how this larger-than-life dictator just crumbled like that. Maybe its just me but I loved the fact that it was anti-climactic. Sends the message that all that heroism and supervillainy comes down to nothing. TDKR was a post-superhero superhero movie, it was about how that bizarre and operatic world could be brought back to normalcy: no more heroes, no more villains. Just ordinary folks. Bane, like Batman and Joker, was aspiring towards that existence -- his end justified the message that in the end you don't try to be above people to become a hero. Symbols like Bane and Batman become undone in their own spectacles, what's important is that at the end of the day you no longer need to be larger-than-life in order to be heroic. I loved every moment of it.
Great post Nave!
It doesn't matter who they are, what matters is their plan.
Actually, Bane ranks up there next to those ultimate villains from comics like Doomsday and Venom, or Shao Kahn. On film he'd be comparable to the Terminator from the first film, Sauron from LOTR, or Willard (to Batman's Kurtz). I think just because Bane wasn't as flamboyant as the Joker or readily "Batman's arch-nemesis" people were generally dismissive of him. But his role was never to become Batman's arch-nemesis, even in the comics, he wasn't "Batman's Greatest Villain" a role that's still kept for the Joker as a sort of antithesis to Batman. Rather, he's the synthesis of both Batman and Joker: rather than being the hero's opponent or foil, he's the hero's final monster: the beast that has to be slain. Usually this has always been a reflection of the hero himself: in the Revelations its the Anti-Christ or more specifically the serpent, that sort of animal symbolism that's been so much a part of heroic fables. For Achilles it was Hector, Perseus it was Medusa: it's that foe that the hero slays and then revels in and becomes associated with for his victory. It's interesting that this for Batman was not a Bat but rather someone who's also "trained his body to superhuman perfection." It's interesting that for Spidey it's Venom -- someone who closely resembles the same spider-totem that fuels ol' Webhead.
Electro is not Bane. He's not even Joker. He isn't the ultimate foe or the nemesis. He is, however, a representation of a certain type of evil that our hero is facing throughout his career. I think of him, from a mythical perspective, as Polyphemus to Spider-Man's Odysseus: one of the many grotesque monsters that the hero faces throughout his journey.
I agree -- that'd be so much more tasteful than just giving us "flash-backs" or some sort of unrelated subplot involving his entire life-history. I like that we finally got an investigative Pete on-film (and that's probably the only positive thing you'll hear me say about Webb's Parker)
Hey, thanks! A hero's only as good as the villains right? They need to work on making them compelling rather than to humanise them as psuedo-father figures...all the time.
Wow I love your analytic posts Nave!
I absolutely love Bane in TDKR! He felt like just the right villain to follow up after Joker. I would have hated to have Riddler in TDKR for example. Bane was something different, new and exciting. Not as deep as Joker, Magneto or (IMO) Loki, but he was still very deep and most of all: he had one hell of a presence and character! Every time he showed up, I was at the edge of my seat!
I agree with you about Electro. They shouldn't try to make him something that would feel forced. For example, they shouldn't make Electro come up with these complicated, perfect schemes like Joker does. He shouldn't have this confident presence like Bane.
As you perfectly said, Electro should be one of the monsters in Spidey's journey. You really nailed it there. He doesn't need to rival Green Goblin. I don't think for a second that Electro will be up there with Joker and Doc Ock as CBM villains, because that's just not the kind of villain he is.
What should be compelling about Electro is A) His powers, and B) his deep personality. If they use him to his full potential (as they must do!), these two things combined will make him an extremely exciting villain.
This warrants more attention
Yeah I definitely think so! It would be a perfect way to show that Electro wasn't born with those powers, but at the same time you don't need to waste time showing his origin in detail for you!
The only thing needed is that Peter sneaks into Oscorp and finds documents of the creation of Electro. You don't need to get overly much details from those, it's enough for you to see that there was a project of creating Electro that was done in illegaly and in secret, for what purpose (taking down Spidey or something) etc. To build more upon the character of Dillon, maybe have a sound tape that says something about "Experiment #x, new test subject named Maxwell Dillon. He is extremely eager to do this, almost as if in desperation." or something like that. That's all you need and even less maybe.
That would make for a creepy and exciting scene, much much better than flashbacks or real time origin. Have Osborn catch Peter in the act as well and it will get even more thrilling.
It's definitely true that a hero needs the best villains. Unfortunately Avi Arad has the mindset that for a villain to be interesting he/she must be sympathetic and directly connected to Peter in some way. I think it will take a long time before we see something different from that.
Indeed it does! I'll put that beautiful segment in my sig (and quote Nave, of course!). Pretty much one of the best things I've read here.
Something like Electro kicking his ass big time and then Spidey snooping around at OSCORP and learning his origin through experiment files and we see a quick montage.Would save a lot of time aswell
Then he makes additions to his costumes/gadgets and uses rubber tipped costume or something like that in the final fight
He doesnt need to Rival GG and he doesnt need to come up with complicated plans but you are forgetting that GG/Norman needs to be introduced.
Which means he needs to be connected to Norman but it needs to be done in a way that he doesnt come across as a pawn or just a bodyguard
And he needs to have a plan,not complicated plans but atleast one that is logical,not something like 'I have superpowers,let me destroy the city muhahahaha'.He needs to be shown as an intelligent villian rather than just a superpowered thug he was in the comics
I don't think there should be a quick montage even. Just show Peter discovering the secret files and let the viewers imaginate themselves. Would be way more effective to me.
IMO, the simple plan of draining all the electricity of New York to become a godlike character would be well enough. The guy with the mind in the film should be Norman.
Electro should have deep motives behind his actions (WHY does he become so power hungry, WHY does he want to prove the people that he's like a god? etc.). But the plan itself shouldn't be overly complicated. He doesn't need to be very intelligent, he can be a great villain still. I'd rather them stick true to the comics than make him something he really isn't. I'd love if they add depth to him and use him to his full potential but he's not known to be an intelligent villain.
Because the bold are actually extremely great villains, but I'd give the edge to Bane.
Connors....imo, he was just a 'eh' villain at best.
Well apparently a lot of people are kidding themselves, huh?
I say flashbacks mostly because I want Electro to have powers from the start, but if Peter can find out himself, it would still call for flashbacks to show the viewer, lol.
The thing about Electro that they have touched on in various incarnations is that he's pretty insecure. That right there is a good jump off point.
It's all about opinion and if in your opinion Bane is one of the all time villians that fine but I'd wager on any poll or if you asked a group of people to name the all time cinematic villians Bane would be no where near that list.
I like TDKR a lot, I'm one of the few people that likes TDKR to TDK but Bane is no where near my all time favorite movie villian list.
That would IMO be completely unnecessary in this case. That would take away some of the creepy, mysterious feel about the whole secret experiment. Let's say Peter finds documents and stuff and reads them. He wouldn't be able to know what it all looked like. Therefore it wouldn't make any sense to show it in a flashback, because the whole thing is from Peter's point of view.
However, if it was played out more like Norman actually explaining to Peter what happened, then a flashback would make more sense. Though even then, I think it would give a much more dramatical effect to just have his words.
But THAT'S the thing...I doubt Joker would be on that list as well if we asked a group of people to name their all-time cinematic villains. If even Ledger won an award for it, that doesn't entail that he'd be on a list of most memorable villains.
I mean, guys like Hardy's Bane, Molina's Doc Ock...they seem so underrated now because of Ledger's Joker.
But much like Flint Marko recalling how he killed Uncle Ben, I think while reading documents or whatever to explain the process, we could definitely see how it was when Dillon received those abilities. Both ways, reading a document or Norman explaining it, would definitely make sense, imo.
Good Lord dude, are you ever NOT arguing about the Nolan films?
This is the Spider-man section. You wanna talk Batman, go to the batman forum.
Love how people are so uptight.
It'd only be considered 'uptight' if this was an isolated incident.
It's obnoxious coming to this forum and see you constantly bickering with people, with more times than not it being something about the Nolan films. Please stop further derailing conversations in the future into arguments about the Nolan films. I'm sincerely asking here.
It's fine if you're asking, but I only bring up Nolan's trilogy when it only flows into topic. As you can see, I brought up Bane after someone mentioning memorable villains and I said Bane is underrated. That's like saying keep any opinions I have away if it had to deal with anything Nolan related or Batman related. And that's ridiculous to ask.