Jared Leto IS The Joker - Part 10

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Kanye West said:
What's your perception of their rivalry?

At the basic level it's about Joker being what batman could become if he goes into the abyss he's always talking about.
Him being a past prodigy would only enhance that. Their core dynamic still being there, but being 10x more personal. Joker would be a reminder of the consequences of their crime fighting lifestyle and again show what batman can become at his worst.
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Joker is....the devil. He's the villains villain. Pure evil to his core. When you put that emotional connection on it....it's just not right. That's not joker. It's not interesting, it's not edgy, it doesn't raise the bar. It is a dumb dumb fan theory that started because of that feather tattoo on his arm. It snowballed, and now we're here. Talking about the dumbest theory I've ever heard in my life. So dumb that I'm honestly wondering if this is perhaps the greatest trolling these forums have ever seen. If it is. Bravo. You've driven me up the wall. I'm destitute. I've lashed out at my cats. They hate me now. I keep feeding them fancy feast and they hate me because I've yelled at them. I've yelled things like "JAYSON TOAAAD IS NOOOOT THA JOOOOOKAR". The neighbours called the police. I explained the theory and they felt bad and let me off with a warning. The 7/11 was out of diet DP. So I had to get a coke. The only coke that was left was one that said "share a coke with 'cheerleader'" the guy in front of me had the coke with my name on it. My gameinformer came in the mail with this destiny crap all over the cover. I just can'ts dos it. CANTS DOS ITS NO MORES!
 
I have no idea what Kanye West is on about, but that's nothing new.
 
Kanye West said:
What's your perception of their rivalry?

At the basic level it's about Joker being what batman could become if he goes into the abyss he's always talking about.
Him being a past prodigy would only enhance that. Their core dynamic still being there, but being 10x more personal. Joker would be a reminder of the consequences of their crime fighting lifestyle and again show what batman can become at his worst.
Click to expand...
I've already discussed this in a previous post, and godisawesome also provided a great analysis on the matter.

Batman's greatest asset is his mind, or more specifically, his ability to come at any situation from a place of educated, informed, or deduced understanding. The Joker presents him with a puzzle he cannot solve. As such, Batman can never truly know or understand this man. That makes him THE foil for the world's greatest detective. The ghost that emerges from the shadows to challenge Batman's order with chaos. The Joker is an almost elemental concept. He exists to provide Batman with an antithesis, not with punishment for a perceived failure.

You lose that entirely if the Joker is somebody Batman knows, especially a close ally that he once regarded as family. It anchors the Joker with a concrete past that is personally known to Batman, thus providing him with an intimate understanding of the man behind the grin.

And Jason, now transformed as the Joker, blames Batman for what he has become. No matter what the Joker does, however random his crimes may be in nature, it will only ever come about because Batman failed to save him. In that regard, the Joker will always be motivated by that deep-seeded resentment/betrayal. It trivializes an otherwise complex character whose motives go far beyond petty grievances.

Their rivalry goes beyond the men. What we see is a clash between ideologies. A clash between concepts. Justice vs injustice. Order vs chaos. Yin vs yang. It elevates the relationship to something with a sense of mythos and symbolic weight. It goes well beyond a personal grudge.

And between mass murders, killing Jason, killing Sarah Essen (Gordon's wife), and crippling Barbara, the Joker has done plenty of unspeakable things that are very personal to Batman - without necessitating that the two characters having a shared history.

It'd be like altering Arthur Conan Doyle's canon to where Moriarty was actually John Watson. Sure, there's "story potential" there, but it fundamentally changes the dynamic, and not for the better. There's putting a new spin on canon, and then there's doing something that is just a stupid idea that doesn't serve these characters (and their relationships) to their fullest potentials. The Joker doesn't need to be weighed down with Robin's backstory, and the relationship between him and Batman doesn't need to be reduced to a personal matter where one character feels betrayed by the other.

White needs it black.
 
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I'm starting to get scared. What if the Joker = Jason rumors are right? What then? How could we possibly move on? In what forsaken corners of the earth will all hope hide into?

I fear that a crazy theory might hit the jackpot, an all of our investments will now belong to them, the crazy fan theorists.

Or nah.
 
Boom said:
I've already discussed this in a previous post, and godisawesome also provided a great analysis on the matter.

Batman's greatest asset is his mind, or more specifically, his ability to come at any situation from a place of educated, informed, or deduced understanding. The Joker presents him with a puzzle he cannot solve. As such, Batman can never truly know or understand this man. That makes him THE foil for the world's greatest detective. The ghost that emerges from the shadows to challenge Batman's order with chaos. The Joker is an almost elemental concept. He exists to provide Batman with an antithesis, not with punishment for a perceived failure.

You lose that entirely if the Joker is somebody Batman knows, especially a close ally that he once regarded as family. It anchors the Joker with a concrete past that is personally known to Batman, thus providing him with an intimate understanding of the man behind the grin.
Click to expand...

I agree on these points. No decent version of the Joker should have those elements.
 
Kanye West said:
right....

With the right people behind this it can be brilliant. I would like it if this joker is the first joker and there wasn't one before. Someone so close to bruce becoming his mortal enemy that he still has hope for or something along that is so damn great.

Just thinking about the climax scene with these two and the dialogue that would ensue is chill inducing. Of course comic purists are gonna knock down the idea but I hope it's true just t piss the idiots off. A great villain is a great villain, and a great story is a great story. People wouldn't be complaining if this wasn't the joker we're talking about.
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Michael-What-the-office-10400786-400-226.gif
 
Guys Ayer said that he's sticking to the source material....

There not gonna throw decades of Joker lore down the drain for a stupid rumour like this.
 
Enriquespy said:
I'm starting to get scared. What if the Joker = Jason rumors are right? What then? How could we possibly move on? In what forsaken corners of the earth will all hope hide into?

I fear that a crazy theory might hit the jackpot, an all of our investments will now belong to them, the crazy fan theorists.

Or nah.
Click to expand...

They could solve it all easily....

1CAF13F0-8C1A-4B60-AE94-D1BB937DA3FC_zpssjarqjiy.gif
 
Enriquespy said:
I'm starting to get scared. What if the Joker = Jason rumors are right? What then? How could we possibly move on? In what forsaken corners of the earth will all hope hide into?

I fear that a crazy theory might hit the jackpot, an all of our investments will now belong to them, the crazy fan theorists.

Or nah.
Click to expand...
They do this, and I'm checking myself out.

People are free to perceive that as they like ("LOL overreacting purist!!1"), but it's like I told Majik yesterday. If I had a list of things I have absolutely no desire to ever see, the Joker being a former Robin is on there.

I can deal with Ledger's Joker wearing makeup, because the characterization was otherwise on-point and in keeping with who the the Joker is.

This is something else entirely. This simply does not line up with what I like about the character. At all. Some people think it enhances the Batman/Joker relationship. I think it dilutes it into something significantly weaker.

Pour too much water in my whiskey and I'm going to spit it out.
 
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You guys are starting to put David Ayer on the same boat as Josh Trank with the whole drastically changing the source material :funny:
 
jokesonm3 said:
A good old fashioned dose of the worst kind of drug you can find on the internet:

Reddit



Warning!

Side effects may include: Hysteria, lunacy, crazy talk and in worst cast scenarios: Fan Theories.
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Truth! :funny:
 
So someone shot up Jason Todd, resulting in him falling into a vat of chemicals at ACE - turning him into the Joker. He then sends Batman his old Robin suit with "The Joke's on You Batman! Ha Ha ha!" painted across it. Then he decides to get tattooed up and get some killer metal teeth. Then he creates Harley Quinn.
 
Boom said:
So someone shot up Jason Todd, resulting in him falling into a vat of chemicals at ACE - turning him into the Joker. He then sends Batman his old Robin suit with "The Joke's on You Batman! Ha Ha ha!" painted across it. Then he decides to get tattooed up and get some killer metal teeth. Then he creates Harley Quinn.
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Don't forget he sends Bruce a newspaper with "You let your family die" on it.
 
jokesonm3 said:
Guys Ayer said that he's sticking to the source material....

There not gonna throw decades of Joker lore down the drain for a stupid rumour like this.
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There's plenty of X-is-actually-y in really great stories:

- Tim Drake (Robin) -> Joker in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
- Lex -> Lex+Braniac combo in Justice League Unlimited (Divided We Fall)
- Terry McGuinness -> 1/2 Bruce Clone in Justice League Unlimited (Epilogue)
- Martha Wayne -> Joker in Flashpoint
- Bruce -> Joker (Batman: Two Faces), kinda like a Fight club thing
- Dick Grasyon -> Joker-like in TDK Strikes Again

Now some of those are elseworld,TV, etc, but what continuity of comic storylines is the DCCU? We have an earth-2-esque superman symbol, a TDK-esque Batman-V-Superman plot/look. Earth-1 SS - save for Harley's clothes/costume?

Point is, it's hard to take the source material line too seriously, because of the above.

i concede that if we saw the following it would be epic:
- Flashback to Jason Todd getting crowbar'ed by Leto
- Flashback to Leto in a Red hood
- New red hood appearing sometime
- Nightwing coming in ... later?
- Whole bat-family shows up
- Death in the family storyline plays out sometime in a later movie

That'd all be great - sign me up.

But I don't discount a potential different story where:

- Robin is someone very close to Bruce (maybe the son of an ally like Gordon, maybe even a .. dare i say it .. younger brother).
- A bad spectacle happens, someone dies - or robin lets someone die.
- We see a psychotic break
- Bruce, in tears, carries his dear friend/son/whatever into Arkham to get him help knowing he can't, tortured that he let it happen
- We're left with screams as the tortured psychosis sets in and Joker emerges
- Fast forward to BvS/SS/Justice League sequels -- Joker knows who Batman is, and can team up with Luthor. We get a few tear-jerking scenes where Batman confronts the Joker to try and bring out his old friend/son/whatever.

Maybe that's a lot, and horribly twists the characters in irredeemable ways, but I would still love to see it. Consequences of standing up to crime, and someitmes bad things happens, a social commentary on mental illness, and ultimately letting go of a loved one.

But hey, all of that could be done with Death of the Family or The Killing Joke, and we'd still get social commentaries, and powerful family break ups.

Either way, i'm excited - and I love thinking how the power of story telling in these movies can shine a light on the problems the world faces, or the things we wish we could do to solve them.

you all should lighten up and get in the spirit of thinking about potential plot lines, arcs from the comics, or story mechanics that would challenge what we know about these characters, and how they reflect modern society and its problems.
 
Boom said:
Why do you do this to me, Rodrigo?
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The first sentence you wrote reminded me of that scene in Naked Gun, for some reason. Where OJ boards the ship at the beginning, and manages to get his foot caught in a bar trap, and falling face flat into a wedding cake, before going overboard :hehe:
 
Tim Drake wasn't The Joker in Batman Beyond: RotJ. He was possessed by the Joker's persona. The Joker had already been firmly established as a separate, pre-existing character by that point.
 
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