Jared Leto IS The Joker - - - Part 12

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Well thats going to get you in trouble

j/k

I will say that Ledger's Joker was so well written and layered that his look/mannerisms were embraced more because of it.

I think Ledger played one of the greatest villains ever. However, its possible one day there could be a better movie Joker. Will it be Leto? Who knows. He'll likely get to play the role more than once.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I hold Ledger's iteration in very high regard. I'd go as far to say that it's nearly impossible for any other successor to be as impressive because of how unpredictable it was. And more importantly, how it could have so easily gone wrong.

It's a prime example of how execution is everything. On paper, under different hands this Joker could have been an absolute travesty based on the deviations. So when they pull it off spectacularly despite the odds, it's a monumental achievement.

With all that said though, I'm convinced Leto will still come off as my favorite simply because he embodies more of what I've envisioned for the character.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong. I hold Ledger's iteration in very high regard. I'd go as far to say that it's nearly impossible for any other successor to be as impressive because of how unpredictable it was. And more importantly, how it could have so easily gone wrong.

It's a prime example of how execution is everything. On paper, under different hands this Joker could have been an absolute travesty based on the deviations. So when they pull it off spectacularly despite the odds, it's a monumental achievement.

With all that said though, I'm convinced Leto will still come off as my favorite simply because he embodies more of what I've envisioned for the character.

I've seen a lot of different trailer reactors and read up what others think on message boards.

The overwhelming thing is they like Leto's Joker, but are going to find it different to get over Ledgers Joker. Instead of just accepting both.

8 years is short time to follow up an all time performance. Even though there were doubters of Heath at least time allowed for people to accept something new. Also Nolan built up so much goodwill after Batman Begins that after the trailer you had to trust it.

It's almost embedded into people that THAT is Joker. It seems like every person I talk to balks at the idea of Joker being flashy or theatrical. Thats the weight of such a great performance by Heath. It almost redefines the character. To quote the Joker in TDK, "there's no going back, you've changed things forever."

I think I'm going to love the performance. I'm glad they are doing something different. However, we are in the social media age where its cool say something sucks in comparison to something else.

I hope they do embrace Leto's Joker for what it is.
 
I was never all that impressed with Ledger's joker. :shrug:
 
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I was never all that impressed with Ledger's joker. :shrug:

tumblr_inline_nszyxjX9im1r9s1q8_500.gif
 
:funny:
I mean, he was definitely good.
There's no denying that he was entertaining.
I don't dislike it, I just didn't fall in love with that particular interpretation like other people did. :shrug:
Incredibly overrated imo

EDIT*
It's not even anything wrong with his performance.
It's just certain fans that are a little...wild
 
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I hate how when some individual doesn't like something it all of sudden means it's overrated.

Ledger's Joker is one of the best cinematic movie villains ever. The man won an Oscar playing a comic book character think about that.

You may not like personally like it which is fine but don't claim it's an "overrated" role when there is absolutely no evidence for that.

-edit-

I actually think we may have reached the peak point of the anti-Nolan backlash phenomena taking place on SHH. It started with the suit, then the voice, then Bale himself and now as I predicted finally Heath freakin Ledger was also apparently overrated...
 
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:funny:
I mean, he was definitely good.
There's no denying that he was entertaining.
I don't dislike it, I just didn't fall in love with that particular interpretation like other people did. :shrug:
Incredibly overrated imo

EDIT*
It's not even anything wrong with his performance.
It's just certain fans that are a little...wild


giphy.gif
 
I hate how when some individual doesn't like something it all of sudden means it's overrated.

Ledger's Joker is one of the best cinematic movie villains ever. The man won an Oscar playing a comic book character think about that.

You may not like personally like it which is fine but don't claim it's an "overrated" role when there is absolutely no evidence for that.

-edit-

I actually think we may have reached the peak point of the anti-Nolan backlash phenomena taking place on SHH. It started with the suit, then the voice, then Bale himself and now as I predicted finally Heath freakin Ledger was also apparently overrated...

Dude, overrated is an opinion. Calm the hell down. The performance is still there for you to enjoy.

God.
 
There are performances I don't care for I don't go out and call them overrated, unless I can provide actual reasons to say that.

If he honestly feels it's an overrated role there has to be some reason for that. I wouldn't mind hearing them.

People don't get that just because you don't like something that there is something inherently wrong with it.
 
I can't wrap my head around how the "true to the character" card is pulled while simultaneously referencing Ledger. Solely judging style and physical appearance, I can't think of a more singular and unique iteration than his. Even to this day.

I get the performance was unexpectedly enthralling and re-watchable, but nearly every new aspect brought to the character was bordering on anti-Joker. You could sum him up as a "lone-wolf hobo terrorist in clownface" and wouldn't be too far off from the actual part. Who can honestly say that comes close to anyone's version of Joker?

Just look at this:

giphy.gif


It boggles me people can rag on Leto's departure but have no problem with Ledger. I can only understand it if TDK is your primary frame of reference. But anyone else... HOW?? Am I missing some essential Joker reboot appearances? The character has remained "relatively" consistent.

Superficial tats and grills do not outweigh the blatant callback imagery that Leto's evokes of past incarnations. Even if I tried I cannot say the same for Heath.

You have a point there. The slicked back bright green hair alone does much to evoke the classic Joker we know.
 
When someone says that they think it's overrated... Uh, why split hairs man? That is what they personally think. You know, despite the RT scores, the polls, the BO numbers, we all should please remember, that this is ART it is not SCIENCE. No one can argue with the math of a boiling point or the fact that every time you certain chemicals together that you will get a certain reaction. That's science. This is art. It is subjective as hell, and before the usual gang of first year film students chime in... NO. No, the supposed objectivity you think can be applied like straight jacket rules? Yeah, that's just you trying to shape a pound of water. Maybe if you freeze it you can do it but then, it's no longer a liquid that can creep or flow. It's gone from being alive in the moment to actually becoming inert and solid, so it's unresponsive and cannot adapt. So too with this idea that film has RULES instead of GUIDELINES learned over the course of a century of film making (outside of course the technical know how of running a set, camera and sound operations, ect., though even there, we are dealing with ARTISTS operating the equipment. Yeah, that's right... The sound crew, the cinematographer, the set designers? All artists. Because it is an art to execute their parts well. It's why some cinematographers are more in demand than others. Cinematography is an ART in the sense that it's not a math equation or formula that can be recreated by just anyone.) There is no objective way to PROVE that when someone says that they think something is overrated that it's a FACT anymore than the reverse. You can point out that Ledger won an Oscar, point to the RT scores and if anything it goes more towards the other person's opinion since to their mind they think that all that data is evidence of exactly what they are talking about.


Finally... Why is this a problem exactly? No, I know, people are gonna say "I'm not saying it's a problem just something I noticed yadda yadda..." But let's be serious. People online and even in real life express themselves on these sort of topics as though some great betrayal is taking place. "I just knew people were gonna turn on the Nolan series and Ledger." "People are dissing Ledger if they think Leto is going to be as good." "I can't believe people would forget about the Nolan series already" Can you say that such sentiments have not been seen around here, folks? But why? Well I think it's just the nature of these characters and how our belief in them is far closer to religion than anyone cares to admit. There's always the scent of "true believers" feeling slighted by the "apostates" liking something new. Granted the reverse is true. There are those that feel the need to drag down something from an earlier time too.

Still, that feeling of people "turning their backs on XYZ" that we hear so often has always been a curious one.
 
When someone says that they think it's overrated... Uh, why split hairs man? That is what they personally think. You know, despite the RT scores, the polls, the BO numbers, we all should please remember, that this is ART it is not SCIENCE. No one can argue with the math of a boiling point or the fact that every time you certain chemicals together that you will get a certain reaction. That's science. This is art. It is subjective as hell, and before the usual gang of first year film students chime in... NO. No, the supposed objectivity you think can be applied like straight jacket rules? Yeah, that's just you trying to shape a pound of water. Maybe if you freeze it you can do it but then, it's no longer a liquid that can creep or flow. It's gone from being alive in the moment to actually becoming inert and solid, so it's unresponsive and cannot adapt. So too with this idea that film has RULES instead of GUIDELINES learned over the course of a century of film making (outside of course the technical know how of running a set, camera and sound operations, ect., though even there, we are dealing with ARTISTS operating the equipment. Yeah, that's right... The sound crew, the cinematographer, the set designers? All artists. Because it is an art to execute their parts well. It's why some cinematographers are more in demand than others. Cinematography is an ART in the sense that it's not a math equation or formula that can be recreated by just anyone.) There is no objective way to PROVE that when someone says that they think something is overrated that it's a FACT anymore than the reverse. You can point out that Ledger won an Oscar, point to the RT scores and if anything it goes more towards the other person's opinion since to their mind they think that all that data is evidence of exactly what they are talking about.


Finally... Why is this a problem exactly? No, I know, people are gonna say "I'm not saying it's a problem just something I noticed yadda yadda..." But let's be serious. People online and even in real life express themselves on these sort of topics as though some great betrayal is taking place. "I just knew people were gonna turn on the Nolan series and Ledger." "People are dissing Ledger if they think Leto is going to be as good." "I can't believe people would forget about the Nolan series already" Can you say that such sentiments have not been seen around here, folks? But why? Well I think it's just the nature of these characters and how our belief in them is far closer to religion than anyone cares to admit. There's always the scent of "true believers" feeling slighted by the "apostates" liking something new. Granted the reverse is true. There are those that feel the need to drag down something from an earlier time too.

Still, that feeling of people "turning their backs on XYZ" that we hear so often has always been a curious one.

:atp:
:up:
 
There are performances I don't care for I don't go out and call them overrated, unless I can provide actual reasons to say that.

If he honestly feels it's an overrated role there has to be some reason for that. I wouldn't mind hearing them.

People don't get that just because you don't like something that there is something inherently wrong with it.

What makes you feel that overrated automatically means someone thinks the work under consideration is highly flawed or "bad" though? That's not what I take it to mean when people are using it colloquially at all. Take GOTG, as a for instance. I think it's INSANELY overrated by most, but when I go into it further the first thing I always say is, "It is by no means a bad movie... But the general consensus about it found online overestimates most of it's qualities, from how fun it is, how enjoyable the characters are, the action, ect. ect."

Is it again the hothouse nature of these types of boards? Cuz, a big problem is the level of discourse that is reliant on at least one party always making the most extreme and absolutist statements. So, when someone says "I think this was overrated" some just jump to the conclusion that it's another absolutist statement, when it is not.
 
When someone says that they think it's overrated... Uh, why split hairs man? That is what they personally think. You know, despite the RT scores, the polls, the BO numbers, we all should please remember, that this is ART it is not SCIENCE. No one can argue with the math of a boiling point or the fact that every time you certain chemicals together that you will get a certain reaction. That's science. This is art. It is subjective as hell, and before the usual gang of first year film students chime in... NO. No, the supposed objectivity you think can be applied like straight jacket rules? Yeah, that's just you trying to shape a pound of water. Maybe if you freeze it you can do it but then, it's no longer a liquid that can creep or flow. It's gone from being alive in the moment to actually becoming inert and solid, so it's unresponsive and cannot adapt. So too with this idea that film has RULES instead of GUIDELINES learned over the course of a century of film making (outside of course the technical know how of running a set, camera and sound operations, ect., though even there, we are dealing with ARTISTS operating the equipment. Yeah, that's right... The sound crew, the cinematographer, the set designers? All artists. Because it is an art to execute their parts well. It's why some cinematographers are more in demand than others. Cinematography is an ART in the sense that it's not a math equation or formula that can be recreated by just anyone.) There is no objective way to PROVE that when someone says that they think something is overrated that it's a FACT anymore than the reverse. You can point out that Ledger won an Oscar, point to the RT scores and if anything it goes more towards the other person's opinion since to their mind they think that all that data is evidence of exactly what they are talking about.


Finally... Why is this a problem exactly? No, I know, people are gonna say "I'm not saying it's a problem just something I noticed yadda yadda..." But let's be serious. People online and even in real life express themselves on these sort of topics as though some great betrayal is taking place. "I just knew people were gonna turn on the Nolan series and Ledger." "People are dissing Ledger if they think Leto is going to be as good." "I can't believe people would forget about the Nolan series already" Can you say that such sentiments have not been seen around here, folks? But why? Well I think it's just the nature of these characters and how our belief in them is far closer to religion than anyone cares to admit. There's always the scent of "true believers" feeling slighted by the "apostates" liking something new. Granted the reverse is true. There are those that feel the need to drag down something from an earlier time too.

Still, that feeling of people "turning their backs on XYZ" that we hear so often has always been a curious one.

Look at your example you made about art. Do you honestly think if someone just said "Picaso is overated" or the "Beatles are overated" without providing any context as to why, that wouldn't elicit reactions?

I don't mind critique of works I'm just not a fan of flipant comments.

There could be legit reasons to be made and I wouldnt mind hearing them.
 
Beethoven is overrated and Francis Ford Coppola is a pansy.
 
Look at your example you made about art. Do you honestly think if someone just said "Picaso is overated" or the "Beatles are overated" without providing any context as to why, that wouldn't elicit reactions?

I don't mind critique of works I'm just not a fan of flipant comments.

There could be legit reasons to be made and I wouldnt mind hearing them.

Bruce, you can react however you want, I'm just saying that thinking Ledger's greatness is a "fact" and not a quality that is going to be estimated across a wider variety reactions is to be blinded by the idea that you can apply some sort of objective test to such things at all.

Also...
Is it your contention that Ledger's Joker is at the level in film acting that Picasso and Beatles are to painting and rock and pop music? Cuz... That could again be what I am talking about here in the fan community when someone says that they think something is "overrated". No offense but in it's own way, I think comparing Ledger's Joker, as good as it is, to the works of Picasso or John, Paul and Ringo is in it's own way flippant, if you'll forgive me. The Joker will be re-interpreted and RE-RE-RE-interpreted for a long time to come I suspect. We are getting a new version just this August and when the time comes to put that version out to pasture we will get another. Conversely, Picasso and the Beatles are so singular, so influential, DECADES of influence mind you and scholarly appraisal... I think assuredly in this context that putting Ledger's Joker performance in the same category as the works of the Beatles and Picasso is to quite overrate a fine performance in a good cbm.
 
I actually think we may have reached the peak point of the anti-Nolan backlash phenomena taking place on SHH. It started with the suit, then the voice, then Bale himself and now as I predicted finally Heath freakin Ledger was also apparently overrated...
I didn't like Batman suit in Nolan movies since Batman Begins came out. Then it became even worse with TDK and TDKR. I hated Nolan's Batvoice with passion. But there was nothing overrated about Ledger in TDK. He stole the show ENTIRELY. But I personally wasn't a huge fan of him when the movie came out. I don't know if his Oscar is justified, because, IMO, it's not the first great comic book movie performance (see Catwoman in Batman Returns - hmm, maybe that's why I was AS impressed as many other people).

Leto is my favorite Joker so far (!!!), because they introduced Harley, their relationship, sexed Joker up. He's not as repulsive, as he was in previous movie incarnations. With dirty hair, yellow teeth, dirty clothes or plain disfigured. Yet Leto STILL seems to be the Joker we know and love.
 
Bruce, you can react however you want, I'm just saying that thinking Ledger's greatness is a "fact" and not a quality that is going to be estimated across a wider variety reactions is to be blinded by the idea that you can apply some sort of objective test to such things at all.

Also...
Is it your contention that Ledger's Joker is at the level in film acting that Picasso and Beatles are to painting and rock and pop music? Cuz... That could again be what I am talking about here in the fan community when someone says that they think something is "overrated". No offense but in it's own way, I think comparing Ledger's Joker, as good as it is, to the works of Picasso or John, Paul and Ringo is in it's own way flippant, if you'll forgive me. The Joker will be re-interpreted and RE-RE-RE-interpreted for a long time to come I suspect. We are getting a new version just this August and when the time comes to put that version out to pasture we will get another. Conversely, Picasso and the Beatles are so singular, so influential, DECADES of influence mind you and scholarly appraisal... I think assuredly in this context that putting Ledger's Joker performance in the same category as the works of the Beatles and Picasso is to quite overrate a fine performance in a good cbm.

My point is if you say X is overated I'm interested to hear the reason why besides "because".

I was just using obvious examples where a similar statement would expect a follow up.
 
I hate how when some individual doesn't like something it all of sudden means it's overrated.

Ledger's Joker is one of the best cinematic movie villains ever. The man won an Oscar playing a comic book character think about that.

You may not like personally like it which is fine but don't claim it's an "overrated" role when there is absolutely no evidence for that.

-edit-

I actually think we may have reached the peak point of the anti-Nolan backlash phenomena taking place on SHH. It started with the suit, then the voice, then Bale himself and now as I predicted finally Heath freakin Ledger was also apparently overrated...

I agree, it's one thing to not care for or be impressed but to say its overrated is overreaching. Simply because Heath broke down a lot of doors by winning that Oscar.

In fact, TDK is when I'd say the superhero phenomena truly began. That was the first superhero film to make a $1 billion. While every other element was perfectly in order (except Maggie Gyllenhaal's face), Heath's Joker was the driving force that made TDK such a spectacle.
 
I too thought Ledger's Joker was overrated.
I rated it highly. It seems the majority rated it higher. Therefore to me it was 'overrated'.

This isn't hard, folks.
 
hey look, suddenly everybody thinks ledger was overrated. bring in the spineless pleasers that live upon internet acceptance.
 
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