Jim Starlins Death of the New Gods

[Anubis]

Which wasn't even that good to begin with.

 

[yahman]

Yes !

Im not one to talk, as my obsession is even more delirious than yours, but you have to let it go. The ****ing Kirby books weren't even that good in the first place. IMO there hasn't been a decent New God story since Morrison's WW3, and before that, the Rock of Ages. Since then Darksied has been nothing more than a plot device to make poorly constructed crap like OWAW, seem more epic.

Kirby designed them to be a futuristic interpretation of the mythological characters such as Zeus and Odin, however, nowadays Darksied is basically Superman's punching bag. Something is up when mortals (such as Superman) are beating up transcendental deity's. I'm sure the Greek's would have scoffed at the idea of Odysseus and Achilles beating up Zeus and Posideon. Yet where supposed to belive Superman can do it because Krypton's gravity was stronger ?

The New Gods where suppose to have machines that defied what we conceive as logical, (literal Dues ex machina), yet their all powerful leader currently cannot over come the POWER of photosynthesis ?

Kirby's vision was dead the minute Bardra and Mister Miracle where integrated into the JLA. Morrison tried to salvage the sinking ship during his run on JLA, yet he depicted Orion as a Superman 'lite'. Thank God, Morisson is re-doing them because they have so much potnetial, and its about time it was recognised. Someone with a bit of Kirby love should come along and make the New Gods as epic as Sandman or Lucifer. I think Morisson is going to sew the seeds, but they should be left well alone until someone comes up with something as awe inspiring as Kirby's original vision.

 

[Anubis]

That was odd.

 

[kirbyfan]

Yahman, as I always say, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you look at the excitement currently being shared about DCs Omnibus fourth world books, I think you'll see that many and I do mean many people think Kirbys fourth world material is some of his very best!

I'm one of them, the issue titled the Pact is one of the best comics I've ever read in my life! Out of everything Kirby ever did (think about all this man has done in his career) he said The Pact was his very favorite.

 

[Aristotle]

From the beginning I've said shame on DC for getting rid of Kirbys creations, it was never about the actual comic book, It's about totally disrespecting the Kings creations by eliminating them! Some new version is not what Kirby created!

...

So you don't care about whether the story is good, you care only about continuity and your favorite characters and your favorite creators.

Are you, like, some mystically-spawned avatar of all that is wrong with comic-book fans?

I think he might be [the physical embodiment of ignorant fanboyism]! Or perhaps the internet embodiment of it. We don't have any proof that he really exists in physical space. He could well be a ghost in the machine, an Onslaught-type manifestation of the worst parts of all of our comic-book-fan consciousnesses!

At the point when I can answer what you say with what I've already said, I think the conversation is over, big dog.

 

[Aristotle]

The Corpulent1, to a degree I understand what you are saying, but did they ever totally eliminate Batman, superman, and then come back with some totally new and totally different version?

Yep. They call it The Silver Age: every single superhero in the DC stable was either reimagined or discontinued. Only the trinity, if memory serves, kept the same secret identities and other such things, but even their backstories and general milieus changed substantially.

Now when we see these new versions of the New Gods will we automatically recognize them as the characters Jack Kirby created?

We don't recognize the Jay Garrick Flash when we see the Wally West Flash, but you know what? Wally and Barry were superior characters.

Now if this is all temporary and Jack Kirbys characters are coming back then ok, but if not?

You just keep making yourself look like the worst of comic fandom. At least you're honest about not wanting stories to progress and move forward at all.

Anubis, I have no problem with personality changes or weapon changes or whatever. I have a problem with totally eliminating a persons creation, especially if that person didn't want that!

So basically as long as it's the same name, a complete overhaul is acceptable? Good, because what's probably going to happen is the same names and partial overhauls. So what are you *****ing about? The difference between pre-DotNG and post-DotNG Fourth World will be barely more substantial than the difference between pre-COIE and post-COIE Fourth World (and there WAS a difference.)

 

[fifthfiend]

Come on guys, my ignore doesn't work if you keep quoting him at me.

 

[Aristotle]

Kirby designed them to be a futuristic interpretation of the mythological characters such as Zeus and Odin, however, nowadays Darksied is basically Superman's punching bag. Something is up when mortals (such as Superman) are beating up transcendental deity's. I'm sure the Greek's would have scoffed at the idea of Odysseus and Achilles beating up Zeus and Posideon. Yet where supposed to belive Superman can do it because Krypton's gravity was stronger ?

I'm not sure you know your mythology very well. Mortals defeated gods on several occasions. However, generally, you're right that the New Gods lost a lot of their power over the years. I'm excited to see Morrison's take on them for that reason. This will fulfill Kirby's creative vision better than anyone has in quite some time.

The New Gods where suppose to have machines that defied what we conceive as logical, (literal Dues ex machina), yet their all powerful leader currently cannot over come the POWER of photosynthesis?

OK, so are you scoffing at the original Superman origin (gravity) or at the current one? Make up your mind. Again, however, your larger point is well taken. Somehow the New Gods went from having incomprehensible technology to having technology (specifically, the boom tube) that Anarky made from scratch with no references.

Kirby's vision was dead the minute Bardra and Mister Miracle where integrated into the JLA.

Absolutely. Well, let's say Kirby's vision was dead the minute Hunger Dogs was removed from continuity as the end of his saga.

 

[fifthfiend]

Supes used to fight for the little man, beat up slum lords and corrupt politicians.

Goddamn would I love to see that Superman come back.

 

[yenaled]

Goddamn would I love to see that Superman come back.

I have to ask, why?

Isn't there enough people who do that?

 

[Aristotle]

Superman would have to go back to his original much lower powerset to do that sort of thing. Current Superman could probably just round up all the wife-beaters and mobsters and thugs in five minutes. And if current Superman were to try and take on the system in a way reminiscent of his old clashes with robber barons, well, that's what Tangent: Superman's Reign is about.

 

[Anubis]

That would be kinda boring if you ask me. That's why they changed it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I could do with a drawing down of Superman's current power level, myself. He's better at a higher power level than his original one, but they've kind of gone overboard lately and made him nearly unbeatable.

 

[Anubis]

I don't know about that. he got put in his place in Death of the New Gods.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, that's a refreshing change from owning Orion and Darkseid left and right, like he'd been doing for the past ten years. I almost wish I'd read it now.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, got knocked out twice.

 

[yenaled]

Haha yeah, he literally just went "wow, I'm useless" all the way through the book.

 

[Spike_x1]

I've been waiting for the trade and only skimming through the books on the shelf currently, but now I want to read it even more.

 

[Aristotle]

Haha yeah, he literally just went "wow, I'm useless" all the way through the book.

In a different time, this mini would have been a character-defining moment for him. The moment when he truly understood the way people feel around him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's not cool for Superman to be humanized anymore, though. He doesn't inspire people that way.

 

[Aristotle]

In general, I do think that Superman needs to be a massive, mythic, iconic figure, but humanizing such a figure can do a lot to advance the character, and Death of the New Gods was a rare humanizing moment that actually worked.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Even rarer are the stories like Kelly's Action Comics issues or Moore's For the Man Who Has Everything, which humanize him and make him iconic and inspiring all at once.

 

[Aristotle]

Someday, in my perfect world, Kelly will come back to write both Superbooks and Superman-Batman and he will never leave.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd put Kelly on Superman, leave Johns on Action (provided he stops writing everyone at the Daily Planet like their movie counterparts), and put Rucka on Superman/Batman, myself.

 

[Anubis]

Oh hellz yeah.