The Dark Knight Joaquin Phoenix....he must be the one!

[StorminNorman]

The difference is Ras' ethnicity has never been explicitly stated. While they could've tried in making Neeson a bit tanner (Viggo, the original choice, would've been perferct for this), it still stayed true by not revealing where he is from. I don't seem to remember Ra's touting himself of irish blood.

Show me in the comics where someone has said "Hey Harvey, you white son of a *****!" "Hey Harvey, you cracker you!" "Man, those pants make that guy look as white as Harvey Dent!". Harvey's ethnicity has never been "stated" - he may be of South African decent for all we really know. He may just have strange skin pigments and truly be an African American. It never states it. We can only go by the artest rendering of Harvey - the same as Ra's. It is quite clear that this Ra's:

is not of the same race as

Physical structure and Skin color are vastly different things. Now if they make Harvey a pretty skinny dude with a goatee, then your example of Alfred would fit better in that scenario. Otherwise, this is your most far-fetched suggestion.

They both have to do with the physical look of the character - having little relevance when it comes to the character themself. Period.

Your only case has to revolve around the fact that there is no reason NOT to cast an actor for the role of Harvey that doesn't LOOK like Harvey. Michael Caine does not look like any Alfred seen in the comics. Other actors fit the physical look much better, have almost equally fantastic abilities (John Hurt for example) - yet Caine was chose and IMO made the role his own. An African American actor, an Indian actor - hell, cast Ronny and make Harvey an Asian-American D.A. - it doesn't affect the character in the least bit.

I find that highly doubtful. Crane, while never worked in Arkham, was still a "doctor" who experimented his gasses on peers. I don't recall much talk about this change, and that's simply because it wasn't that big of a deal. However, if Dent were to be black, I'd wager there would be a bigger discussion. Not so much an outburst mind you, but definitely a lot of talk.

Talk is not a bad thing. The casting of Heath Ledger caused a lot of talk and is still a move questioned by many a hardcore Bat or Comic Fan.

 

[Nepenthes]

Could further explain his split personalities. Maybe he had a white dad, and a black mom

that is either the funniest thing or the stupidest thing I will read today t: i'll take funny, nice one Hades

Um dudes this arguement about race and drawings and actors and stuff? yeah it's really gay.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

hmm why do we even care about his race?

 

[BatScot]

Harvey's ethnicity has never been "stated"...

Why state the obvious.

 

[Crooklyn]

Show me in the comics where someone has said "Hey Harvey, you white son of a *****!" "Hey Harvey, you cracker you!" "Man, those pants make that guy look as white as Harvey Dent!". Harvey's ethnicity has never been "stated" - he may be of South African decent for all we really know.

So are you gonna tell me that same thing for a character such as John Stewart, Lucius Fox, Spawn, Blade....that we can't know for sure if these guys are black?? Yeah, let's just *assume* they all stayed in the tanning salon a bit too long.

He may just have strange skin pigments and truly be an African American. It never states it.

I love it when you inject humor in an otherwise---




...no wait. Dude, really? I mean...for serious?

We can only go by the artest rendering of Harvey - the same as Ra's. It is quite clear that this Ra's:

is not of the same race as

Eh, not that great of a comparison to further your point imo. While I'm not in total agreement with it, white actors can pull off the look of foreign characters quite well. All it really takes is a bit of a tan. It's been done many times before....Jesus, anyone?

They both have to do with the physical look of the character - having little relevance when it comes to the character themself. Period.

The character themselves? No. Faithfully adapting to another medium? I'd say it does. That statement above can be applied to 95% of the comic book characters out right now. Vastly popular ones too. Switch up the race for any number of them, suggest it to the corresponding boards....and see how much of a b1tch-storm you get. It's obviously not something you can just ignore.

Your only case has to revolve around the fact that there is no reason NOT to cast an actor for the role of Harvey that doesn't LOOK like Harvey. Michael Caine does not look like any Alfred seen in the comics. Other actors fit the physical look much better, have almost equally fantastic abilities (John Hurt for example) - yet Caine was chose and IMO made the role his own. An African American actor, an Indian actor - hell, cast Ronny and make Harvey an Asian-American D.A. - it doesn't affect the character in the least bit.

I won't have a big problem if a black Harvey is cast. I will, however, have a problem, if I figure out it was stunt-casting. The actor could be great in the role, but if he was picked partly because Nolan wanted to change it up for the sake of it, I won't lie and say I won't be a little irked by it.

Talk is not a bad thing. The casting of Heath Ledger caused a lot of talk and is still a move questioned by many a hardcore Bat or Comic Fan.

No doubt talk can be good. But once enough of that "talk" piles up into something bad...it gets blown out of proportion. Look at the sh1t SR got after a few days. It's generally considered a good film, but enough negative talk...and that's all you ever hear about now. Nolan can do whatever he pleases, but it wouldn't hurt to get the fans completely on your side once in a while.

 

[StorminNorman]

So are you gonna tell me that same thing for a character such as John Stewart, Lucius Fox, Spawn, Blade....that we can't know for sure if these guys are black?? Yeah, let's just *assume* they all stayed in the tanning salon a bit too long.

I love it when you inject humor in an otherwise---




...no wait. Dude, really? I mean...for serious?

I am of course being a bit bombastic here - but to say that an ethnicity for Ra's is not pointed too in the comics is a bit of a reach as well.

Eh, not that great of a comparison to further your point imo. While I'm not in total agreement with it, white actors can pull off the look of foreign characters quite well. All it really takes is a bit of a tan. It's been done many times before....Jesus, anyone?

But see, they did not try to make Mr. Neeson resemble the tan skin of Ra's Al Ghul - outside of the beard, they did nothing to his appearance at all.

The character themselves? No. Faithfully adapting to another medium? I'd say it does. That statement above can be applied to 95% of the comic book characters out right now. Vastly popular ones too. Switch up the race for any number of them, suggest it to the corresponding boards....and see how much of a b1tch-storm you get. It's obviously not something you can just ignore.

Sure, people would complain - people complain about Heath Ledger - however the story was good, the character was well written, etc. - people would tend to over look it. Plus, making such a dramatic change to a lead character is far different than making the change to a supporting role.

I won't have a big problem if a black Harvey is cast. I will, however, have a problem, if I figure out it was stunt-casting. The actor could be great in the role, but if he was picked partly because Nolan wanted to change it up for the sake of it, I won't lie and say I won't be a little irked by it.

We are of the same mind here, my friend.

No doubt talk can be good. But once enough of that "talk" piles up into something bad...it gets blown out of proportion. Look at the sh1t SR got after a few days. It's generally considered a good film, but enough negative talk...and that's all you ever hear about now. Nolan can do whatever he pleases, but it wouldn't hurt to get the fans completely on your side once in a while.

I think if Singer would of made the fans WANTED before taking liberties with the franchise - he would of had no problems. (Of course the catch here is that the Superman camp was very divided. Half wanted sequels, half wanted restarts, some wanted reboots, some wanted Superman changes, some wanted Traditional - he was never going to please all of them.) Nolan has a lot of "Fan Capital" right now - a move like Denzel for Harvey would not cause a big riot.

 

[BatScot]

It is quite clear that this Ra's:

is not of the same race as

Let me see if I understand this...

This guy:

... is clearly distinguishable from this guy:

But the guy on the left:

... is the same ethnicity as this guy:

???

 

[BatScot]

I am of course being a bit bombastic here.

A bit.

 

[StorminNorman]

Let me see if I understand this...

This guy:

... is clearly distinguishable from this guy:

But the guy on the left:

... is the same ethnicity as this guy:

???

The point I was trying to make was that Batman Begins took a lot of liberties with the look of characters.

 

[BatScot]

The point I was trying to make was that Batman Begins took a lot of liberties with the look of characters.

Oh... well alrightly then.

 

[Crooklyn]

I am of course being a bit bombastic here - but to say that an ethnicity for Ra's is not pointed too in the comics is a bit of a reach as well.

Well I'd say Ra's is a different case. Don't mean to sound harsh here, but when you're white...you're white. Clearly that's what Dent is.

Ra's living for so long, appearing in all parts of the world, he really could be a whole multitude of races, we just don't know.

But see, they did not try to make Mr. Neeson resemble the tan skin of Ra's Al Ghul - outside of the beard, they did nothing to his appearance at all.

I agree here. But asides from that, Neeson embodied everything Ra's should've been imo, both in appearance and character.

Plus, making such a dramatic change to a lead character is far different than making the change to a supporting role.

It's different, but doesn't make it right. I wouldn't consider Harvey a "supporting" character either, I'd say he's pretty major, especially his role in the third.

The point I was trying to make was that Batman Begins took a lot of liberties with the look of characters.

Aside from a few minor cosmetic changes such as height, build, and facial traits (which all really can't be helped mind you)...I don't see it.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Well I'd say Ra's is a different case. Don't mean to sound harsh here, but when you're white...you're white. Clearly that's what Dent is.

Ra's living for so long, appearing in all parts of the world, he really could be a whole multitude of races, we just don't know.


I agree here. But asides from that, Neeson embodied everything Ra's should've been imo, both in appearance and character.


It's different, but doesn't make it right. I wouldn't consider Harvey a "supporting" character either, I'd say he's pretty major, especially his role in the third.


Aside from a few minor cosmetic changes such as height, build, and facial traits (which all really can't be helped mind you)...I don't see it.

I *funny* actually do kind of agree with Norms on this one

Of all the things I did not like about 89', Lando wasn't one of them. I think he would have been a very good Two Face, and would have enjoyed it. BB did take some liberties, that if, say Denzel where to be Dent, I wouldn't be against TDK making, some one said Cuba Gooding, he would be good to.

 

[StorminNorman]

Well I'd say Ra's is a different case. Don't mean to sound harsh here, but when you're white...you're white. Clearly that's what Dent is.

Ra's living for so long, appearing in all parts of the world, he really could be a whole multitude of races, we just don't know.

True, but based on the apparent ethnicity of Talia, the name, etc - the natural assumption would be Ra's is far from being Irish.

I agree Neeson nailed the role and embodied Ra's perfectly. He wasn't, however, the character brought to life as far as looks go (neither was The Scarecrow or Alfred for that matter) - it didn't matter though.

It's different, but doesn't make it right. I wouldn't consider Harvey a "supporting" character either, I'd say he's pretty major, especially his role in the third.

Batman is the main character. Batman should be the only main character. He should play a major role in Batman's story, yes - but I consider that a supporting role.

Aside from a few minor cosmetic changes such as height, build, and facial traits (which all really can't be helped mind you)...I don't see it.

Heigh, Build and Facial traits is the difference between Danny DiVito and Christian Bale. They can be as drastic as skin color. A black Alfred who was thin and had a nice mustache would probably resemble Alfread about as much as Michael Caine did.

 

[Crooklyn]

True, but based on the apparent ethnicity of Talia, the name, etc - the natural assumption would be Ra's is far from being Irish.

But none of that was presented on film. I didn't really see anyone point out "look at that irishman training Batman!".

Batman is the main character. Batman should be the only main character. He should play a major role in Batman's story, yes - but I consider that a supporting role.

Fair enough I guess. Supporting role just seems too minor of a term to me.

Heigh, Build and Facial traits is the difference between Danny DiVito and Christian Bale. They can be as drastic as skin color.

You're pointing out obvious extremes. None of which was really present in BB. Bale had the chiseled body, but not the square face. He had the cold stare, but not the black hair. Things like that. Minor differences from the source material, but ultimately, you can watch the movie and go, "THAT'S Bruce Wayne".

A black Alfred who was thin and had a nice mustache would probably resemble Alfread about as much as Michael Caine did.

You put up a picture of Michael Caine, and an old, thin, black guy with a moustache....side by side. Ask both fans and general movie goers alike, "which one looks more like Alfred?". Guarantee you there will only be one answer 100% of the time. I don't even need to say it.

 

[StorminNorman]

But none of that was presented on film. I didn't really see anyone point out "look at that irishman training Batman!".

So what aspect of Harvey's life will be presented that will show him as white guy? Nothing. Just like there was nothing presented IN THE FILM that showed that the true Ra's is anything BUT Liam Neeson. Again - your reason against a Black Harvey is it is not "true to the comics". Neither was Liam Neeson as Ra's when it comes to race.

You're pointing out obvious extremes. None of which was really present in BB. Bale had the chiseled body, but not the square face. He had the cold stare, but not the black hair. Things like that. Minor differences from the source material, but ultimately, you can watch the movie and go, "THAT'S Bruce Wayne".

I agree, and in looks Oldman WAS Jim Gordon. However they were not the norm.

You put up a picture of Michael Caine, and an old, thin, black guy with a moustache....side by side. Ask both fans and general movie goers alike, "which one looks more like Alfred?". Guarantee you there will only be one answer 100% of the time. I don't even need to say it.

Right now, yes - Michael Caine would get the vote. Made the poll pre-Begins - you would get the response that "neither of them do".

 

[Nepenthes]

oops oops double post double post

 

[Nepenthes]

Ra's is the leader of an organisation out to destroy the decadent West through violence - I don't think it would've gone down to well to cast an Arab in the role. Even if Ra's IS supposed to be an Arab in the comic books.

Again, this argument is stooopid.

 

[Brian2887]

Man, I've been rooting for Joaquin forever. He is the absolute best actor for the role.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Man, I've been rooting for Joaquin forever. He is the absolute best actor for the role.

he's not the best, but he would be a very good choice

but he isn't my choice, but if he is, i will be very cool with it

 

[Katsuro]

Right now, yes - Michael Caine would get the vote. Made the poll pre-Begins - you would get the response that "neither of them do".

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Before Begins, when someone thought Alfred, they thought Michael Gough. Old white guy, white hair, no moustache. Sure, Michael Caine's a lot more fit than Gough, but that's very minor. And even if this was a choice given to avid comic fans, i still think most people would go for Michael Caine. The presence of a moustache and a slight difference in build aren't nearly as large of a difference as skin color.

 

[batman7289]

cusack dammit

 

[WeaponXProject]

Man, I've been rooting for Joaquin forever. He is the absolute best actor for the role.

No one has a better career or a more rising career for the role.

 

[Dark Knight]

Why state the obvious.

Exactly...

 

[L0ngsh0t]

No one has a better career or a more rising career for the role.

this is false

 

[Dark Knight]

Show me in the comics where someone has said "Hey Harvey, you white son of a *****!" "Hey Harvey, you cracker you!" "Man, those pants make that guy look as white as Harvey Dent!". Harvey's ethnicity has never been "stated" - he may be of South African decent for all we really know. He may just have strange skin pigments and truly be an African American. It never states it. We can only go by the artest rendering of Harvey - the same as Ra's. It is quite clear that this Ra's:

is not of the same race as

They both have to do with the physical look of the character - having little relevance when it comes to the character themself. Period.

Your only case has to revolve around the fact that there is no reason NOT to cast an actor for the role of Harvey that doesn't LOOK like Harvey. Michael Caine does not look like any Alfred seen in the comics. Other actors fit the physical look much better, have almost equally fantastic abilities (John Hurt for example) - yet Caine was chose and IMO made the role his own. An African American actor, an Indian actor - hell, cast Ronny and make Harvey an Asian-American D.A. - it doesn't affect the character in the least bit.




Talk is not a bad thing. The casting of Heath Ledger caused a lot of talk and is still a move questioned by many a hardcore Bat or Comic Fan.

Hmmmm....I wonder if there would have been an uproar if Alfred was cast as an african american or even an asian?? It would have been unecessary.....same with the role of Dent...stick to the source material....Dent's race or skin color doesn't need to be changed just for the sake of change for cryin out loud. Plus why would Nolan want to copy Tim Burtons take on Dent?