Vapor
Omlette Du Fromage
- Joined
- May 16, 2003
- Messages
- 3,633
- Reaction score
- 47
- Points
- 58
This is an odd one to me..
I think I had different expectations going in because IMO, the trailers made it look like a “rise of Joker” deal, that he would have a following behind him etc… and after watching it, my first thought was that this isn’t a film about the Joker (‘a’ joker perhaps) but it’s a film about mental illness and how people with it (and other less fortunate people to a smaller extent) are treated by society and more specifically it’s about a guy with a mental illness and how he copes with it (or doesn’t) – all with a Joker skin slapped on it.
It’s intense, grim, disturbing and it’s quite unlikable really. There’s no ‘hero’ or person to root for. Any sympathy you have for Fleck at the start all disappears as the film goes on.
But having slept on it, I don’t dislike it… I’m not sure if I would watch it again but I do like it. It’s certainly an interesting film anyway and Phoenix’s performance is fantastic.
I think as a film, on face value, it has flaws… there are some bits that don’t quite make sense and bits that perhaps aren’t quite made clear (I hear people say that there was already civil unrest before the subway shootings so maybe I missed something 'cos I didn’t get this). It's hard to see how Fleck would become the Joker we are accustomed to so I still don't think this is 'the' Joker.
However I do think it’s a good film but it only really works when you take the view that it’s all one big exaggerated story in his head that he’s relaying to his psychiatrist (the film does outright tell you that he makes stuff up after all);
I find it interesting that his psychiatrist and social worker are both short haired, black women in small square rooms. The way that the mob numbers and riots and violence increase drastically doesn’t quite make sense unless it’s all exaggerated. And I think it’s what he thinks he’s created and it ties in to how he is feeling – it gets bigger and louder the more dissatisfied he is. The way he is given the gun which the guys denies afterwards. His mums condition could be his own condition. His made up relationship is his desire for closeness, to be loved by someone. Similarly, the Thomas Wayne father thing (the “father figure” of Gotham) could just be something he hopes for, the last little ray of light shining through the darkness. The way his appearance on the talk show goes doesn’t quite make sense unless, again, it’s exaggerated in his head. You never see the audience either. The way Murray starts talking to him and questioning him is similar to how a shrink might talk to him. You don’t see the guy’s face who shoots the Waynes, maybe it was Fleck and that’s why he’s locked up and the talk show/shooting his way of coping.
Funnily enough, I would be quite interested in a similar character study of Batman in this same (more grounded) universe. The kid who maybe grows up to be a much more brutal, less caring Batman.
I think I had different expectations going in because IMO, the trailers made it look like a “rise of Joker” deal, that he would have a following behind him etc… and after watching it, my first thought was that this isn’t a film about the Joker (‘a’ joker perhaps) but it’s a film about mental illness and how people with it (and other less fortunate people to a smaller extent) are treated by society and more specifically it’s about a guy with a mental illness and how he copes with it (or doesn’t) – all with a Joker skin slapped on it.
It’s intense, grim, disturbing and it’s quite unlikable really. There’s no ‘hero’ or person to root for. Any sympathy you have for Fleck at the start all disappears as the film goes on.
But having slept on it, I don’t dislike it… I’m not sure if I would watch it again but I do like it. It’s certainly an interesting film anyway and Phoenix’s performance is fantastic.
I think as a film, on face value, it has flaws… there are some bits that don’t quite make sense and bits that perhaps aren’t quite made clear (I hear people say that there was already civil unrest before the subway shootings so maybe I missed something 'cos I didn’t get this). It's hard to see how Fleck would become the Joker we are accustomed to so I still don't think this is 'the' Joker.
However I do think it’s a good film but it only really works when you take the view that it’s all one big exaggerated story in his head that he’s relaying to his psychiatrist (the film does outright tell you that he makes stuff up after all);
I find it interesting that his psychiatrist and social worker are both short haired, black women in small square rooms. The way that the mob numbers and riots and violence increase drastically doesn’t quite make sense unless it’s all exaggerated. And I think it’s what he thinks he’s created and it ties in to how he is feeling – it gets bigger and louder the more dissatisfied he is. The way he is given the gun which the guys denies afterwards. His mums condition could be his own condition. His made up relationship is his desire for closeness, to be loved by someone. Similarly, the Thomas Wayne father thing (the “father figure” of Gotham) could just be something he hopes for, the last little ray of light shining through the darkness. The way his appearance on the talk show goes doesn’t quite make sense unless, again, it’s exaggerated in his head. You never see the audience either. The way Murray starts talking to him and questioning him is similar to how a shrink might talk to him. You don’t see the guy’s face who shoots the Waynes, maybe it was Fleck and that’s why he’s locked up and the talk show/shooting his way of coping.
Funnily enough, I would be quite interested in a similar character study of Batman in this same (more grounded) universe. The kid who maybe grows up to be a much more brutal, less caring Batman.
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