Joker- Full Spoiler Talk (SPOILERS)

*Final points*

Saw an article about the cinematographer saying Philips told her explicitly that Sophie didn't die in the film, and how she used different color palates for illusions and reality? Anyone picked up on that and analyzed it?

I personally like the evolution angle better than the double personality theory.

I realized the dark humor they were going for when Arthur started stabbing Rondo, it was pretty funny but I was way too concerned for the little guy's survival that I didn't laugh or anything, it got pretty funny when he asked Arthur to open the door for him though, while the tension was still there.

It's a bit funny to see some repetitive comments about how this is an illusion and unreliable narrative by the Joker, then the next statement is Thomas Wayne is a d***. Surely TW"s personality cannot be defined by Joker's narrative.

I definitely like the idea that the film was basically a "tall tale" by the Joker we see at the end. It would make sense for him to embellish the story... put a more sympathetic slant on it... make his nemesis' father out to be a bellend.

And the way he looks at the end whilst he's genuinely laughing... that's the look of someone reminiscing.
 
I definitely like the idea that the film was basically a "tall tale" by the Joker we see at the end. It would make sense for him to embellish the story... put a more sympathetic slant on it... make his nemesis' father out to be a bellend.

And the way he looks at the end whilst he's genuinely laughing... that's the look of someone reminiscing.

The other angle would be it's just a brutal Arkham lunatic telling his therapist a made up story of how he became the Joker, but the theory of it's the Joker retelling his "story" is so much more fitting for the movie and the title, and there are evidence that points to that as well.
 
I definitely like the idea that the film was basically a "tall tale" by the Joker we see at the end. It would make sense for him to embellish the story... put a more sympathetic slant on it... make his nemesis' father out to be a bellend.

And the way he looks at the end whilst he's genuinely laughing... that's the look of someone reminiscing.

I really hope the sequel goes in this direction. There are people who say that a sequel should never influence the way that one views the original, but as much as I liked Joker, I would like it much more if we see that parts of his tale were clever fabrications.
 
Finally saw it this afternoon. I think this might have been the most disturbing movie I've seen in a long time, and certainly the most uncomfortable I've felt watching a movie in a cinema. I spent a good 20 minutes afterward pacing around the mall, trying to walk off the tension. I don't really know how to feel about the movie, but my friend, who also felt out of sorts after we saw it, I think he summed up my feelings pretty well. In that, it's well made, and Phoenix is great, but it's a movie I'm not sure I'll ever want to watch again.
 
imagine we get a Batman in the sequel or Joaqin in Reeves' film and we get Bruce Wayne to verify indirectly the real/false part of this film lol
 
imagine we get a Batman in the sequel or Joaqin in Reeves' film and we get Bruce Wayne to verify indirectly the real/false part of this film lol
I've always dreamed about a detective case Batman works on which focuses squarely on finding out exactly who Joker is. I think it'd be even better if the deeper he goes through the past, only more questions arise and he never gets a clear cut answer.
 
Found this on Reddit about the meaning of Sophie's character. Pretty interesting.

Notice how, in the elevator scene, Sophie made the "gun to the head" gesture to Arthur. From then on, the Fake-Sophie shows up whenever Arthur had been at his lowest point, or alone (i.e. after he was fired, when his mother was in the hospital, etc.). So, with the revelation that Sophie was all in Arthur's head the whole time, that means that her purpose of the movie is to be a symbol for a part of Arthur's psyche. So, since she made that "gun to the head" gesture, then that means that Sophie is representative of Arthur's suicidal thoughts. Arthur didn't start out angry. He's depressed. Everyone around him hates him, stigmatizes him, thinks he has no worth, etc. He felt powerless to the bullying society around him. So, when he murdered those people, he finally found a sense of power and control. However, that still doesn't change that it was wrong. Notice how distressed he was afterwards. That was only the beginning of his descent. As the movie goes on, Arthur's life continues to fall apart, which only contributes to his depression, which leads to suicidal thoughts, "physically" represented by Sophie. It's like Arthur's "flirting with suicide." However, after he goes to Arkham and finds out the truth, we then when we get the scene where Sophie was revealed to be all in Arthur's head. Arthur is no longer depressed. He is ANGRY. So now, Arthur isn't imagining Sophie anymore. However, because of how he's been treated, he doesn't know what else to do with his anger, but to lash out, and that's when the Joker is born. Having Sophie be a fully realized character in the movie takes away from the film's true focus, which is Arthur's psyche.
 
Just reminded me I have doubt that Sophie even met Arthur in the elevator to begin with?

When she saw the gun shot sign she freaked out, and she didn't mention anything regarding the elevator e.g. "you're Arthur right? we met in the elevator," and it was quite a weird gesture for a single mom in front of her daughter to show, and all the unrealistic Sophie behavior turned out to be fantasy....(IMO she could still freak out even knowing the sign was their first encounter but I think when the dust settles she probably never even gave that sign to begin with)

You could even argue if he really went to her apartment, maybe he realized his mom's lies and he's just waking up, including breaking his own fantasy, without even going to Sophie's apartment.
 
Found this on Reddit about the meaning of Sophie's character. Pretty interesting.

Notice how, in the elevator scene, Sophie made the "gun to the head" gesture to Arthur. From then on, the Fake-Sophie shows up whenever Arthur had been at his lowest point, or alone (i.e. after he was fired, when his mother was in the hospital, etc.). So, with the revelation that Sophie was all in Arthur's head the whole time, that means that her purpose of the movie is to be a symbol for a part of Arthur's psyche. So, since she made that "gun to the head" gesture, then that means that Sophie is representative of Arthur's suicidal thoughts. Arthur didn't start out angry. He's depressed. Everyone around him hates him, stigmatizes him, thinks he has no worth, etc. He felt powerless to the bullying society around him. So, when he murdered those people, he finally found a sense of power and control. However, that still doesn't change that it was wrong. Notice how distressed he was afterwards. That was only the beginning of his descent. As the movie goes on, Arthur's life continues to fall apart, which only contributes to his depression, which leads to suicidal thoughts, "physically" represented by Sophie. It's like Arthur's "flirting with suicide." However, after he goes to Arkham and finds out the truth, we then when we get the scene where Sophie was revealed to be all in Arthur's head. Arthur is no longer depressed. He is ANGRY. So now, Arthur isn't imagining Sophie anymore. However, because of how he's been treated, he doesn't know what else to do with his anger, but to lash out, and that's when the Joker is born. Having Sophie be a fully realized character in the movie takes away from the film's true focus, which is Arthur's psyche.
Just makes me all the more annoyed that Phillips is determined to confirm that Arthur doesn't kill her. It's the new "Ridley Scott confirms Deckard's a replicant" for me. Way better to leave it unanswered, but also makes more sense for him to kill her. "He only kills those who've wronged him"... Then if he's so "angry", wouldn't he see her rejection of him as "wronging " him? And he's supposed to be the friggin Joker... I know he's not 100 percent there at that point but that doesn't change who he is, who he's supposed to be, the full extent of this character's evil etc

So yeah, Todd, you made a great film, but you can **** right off. He kills her. That's my head canon and IDGAF
 
Philips knows his commercial stuff thus this film is making a billion, that's probably why he made and told the crew etc Sophie's alive, she's a single mom and her daughter's fate is pretty much tied to her, might be too much for the general audience to go there, you can wipe off 300M if he did it
 
Just makes me all the more annoyed that Phillips is determined to confirm that Arthur doesn't kill her. It's the new "Ridley Scott confirms Deckard's a replicant" for me. Way better to leave it unanswered, but also makes more sense for him to kill her. "He only kills those who've wronged him"... Then if he's so "angry", wouldn't he see her rejection of him as "wronging " him? And he's supposed to be the friggin Joker... I know he's not 100 percent there at that point but that doesn't change who he is, who he's supposed to be, the full extent of this character's evil etc

So yeah, Todd, you made a great film, but you can **** right off. He kills her. That's my head canon and IDGAF

Killing her would go totally agains the established character at that point. Phillips wrote the film, its his character and he may understand him better than no one. Arthur isn't your typical comic book villain that is pure evil at that moment. He's a complex individual. He's a real human. The movie shows you that. So making Arthur your typical big bad buddy just because he is supposed to be the Joker goes against everything the movie wants to tell about evil, mental illness and lack of empathy, and reduces him to a classic psycho cb villain that kills everyone just because, instead of a tragic character. This is more than a comic book villain movie, it's the story of a complex individual losing control of his life and the difference between good and evil.

Leaving Gary and Sophie live gives Arthur a lot more complexity.
 
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Killing her would go totally agains the established character at that point. Phillips wrote the film, its his character and he may understand him better than no one. Arthur isn't your typical comic book villain that is pure evil at that moment. He's a complex individual. He's a real human. The movie shows you that. So making Arthur your typical big bad buddy just because he is supposed to be the Joker goes against everything the movie wants to tell about evil, mental illness and lack of empathy, and reduces him to a classic psycho cb villain that kills everyone just because, instead of a tragic character. This is more than a comic book villain movie, it's the story of a complex individual losing control of his life and the difference between good and evil.

Leaving Gary and Sophie live gives Arthur a lot more complexity.
Why does it take away from that complexity? Phillips himself said we're supposed to relate to him until the point where we can't anymore, and that point is different for everyone. For some, that moment probably already passed the minute he friggin stalks her, the way he acts towards Bruce and Alfred, the point where he chases down the third guy in the subway and kills him in cold blood etc. Could this not be just another point?

As I said, I understand he isn't 100% there at that point. But he at least STARTS to get there. Again, her rejection would make sense as Arthur feeling "wronged", even if that may not be accurate, but that doesn't matter because it would be accurate to HIM. The movie is about lack of empathy but that includes Arthur himself as he eventually gives in to his narcissism, his ego, his need to be noticed, his darkest desires. He eventually sees just about everyone as an enemy regardless of whether that's true or not. People lack empathy for them, so he in turn lacks empathy for others. It's a vicious cycle.

It's not about making him a "typical bad guy". It's about staying true to THE bad guy that he's meant to be.

Again though, the question is better than the answer . Joker OR Arthur would probably kill her or NOT kill her, but you never know because the character is unpredictable as all hell . They do stay true to this in the apartment scene with Gary. Gave me "Joker's Favor " vibes of "will he kill him or just mess with him??"

Philips knows his commercial stuff thus this film is making a billion, that's probably why he made and told the crew etc Sophie's alive, she's a single mom and her daughter's fate is pretty much tied to her, might be too much for the general audience to go there, you can wipe off 300M if he did it
I'm sorry, wasn't this whole ****ing MOVIE supposed to be all about "no-holds-barred, as dark and disturbing as possible" etc? Now all of a sudden we're talking about changes to appeal to the general audience? Lol
 
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Why does it take away from that complexity? Phillips himself said we're supposed to relate to him until the point where we can't anymore, and that point is different for everyone. For some, that moment probably already passed the minute he friggin stalks her, the way he acts towards Bruce and Alfred, the point where he chases down the third guy in the subway and kills him in cold blood etc. Could this not be just another point?

As I said, I understand he isn't 100% there at that point. But he at least STARTS to get there. Again, her rejection would make sense as Arthur feeling "wronged", even if that may not be accurate, but that doesn't matter because it would be accurate to HIM. The movie is about lack of empathy but that includes Arthur himself as he eventually gives in to his narcissism, his ego, his need to be noticed, his darkest desires. He eventually sees just about everyone as an enemy regardless of whether that's true or not.

It's not about making him a "typical bad guy". It's about staying true to THE bad guy that he's meant to be.
The thing is the movie doesn't want to be black and white. It's pure nihilism and cynism. Making Arthur obviously evil would take away what the film is trying to do. This isn't your Joker 100% movie. I would say it is more the story of a good man slowly becoming a monster. When you write a character, you must make him stay to the foundations you set him until the point arrives where his goodness starts to fall. That means taking your time to set him. A good Slow Burn tragic villain origin story cant make the tragic character a full villain in the middle of the film, which is what this movie is, and what making Arthur kill Sophie would do.

Arthur isn't Joker in 80% of the movie. He is Arthur Fleck, and Arthur Fleck is a man angry with society, tired of being bullied and alienated. He isn't a bad man, nor a good mad. He is like an anti hero, punishing those he thinks "deserve" it. That's the ambiguous morality the movie potrays with Arthur's character. If you make him kill an innocent while he is still Arthur, that ambiguity gets undone. Arthur is no longer a dark ambiguos character like Punisher or Red Hood, but a true monster, which would take away the impact it had at the end when you start to see him killing innocents (when he becomes a true monster at the ending). The movie is slow burn, it takes its time to get to the Joker point, and i liked that. It makes the transformation even more satisfying, and the movie even more complex.

At that point is wasn't about Arthur being wronged, but him realizing it was time to stop dreaming, to stop fantasying. That's why he does the shooting mock at her. He doesn't want to kill himself anymore. If you made Arthur kill her right there, he stops being a character you don't really know to support or understand. That scene happens at the middle of the film, where we are slowly seeing Arthur's true face. Making him murder Sophie would go from 50% to 100% in a second, and show there is no good inside Arthur anymore (and would make Gary scene kinda weird, considering he just murdered another innocent).

The movie doesn't want to be that. It wants to make you question if monsters do have a soul, if they can be stopped, if there is humanity inside them. If monsters do have a good side or can have empathy. That's why this movie is so complex and more than the good vs evil comic book characters. I know some may not like that, but i personally loved it. I loved that it tried to be more a story of a broken man than a Joker movie (which doesn't mean it ism't, but that it doesn't want to be only that).

Also, there is a deleted scene where you see Arthur leaving flowers ar Sophie's door with a note (showed at the script too) telling her to not watch Murray's show that night, after that scene which means he didn't kill her.

Anyways, it wasn't Phillips that declared that, but the cinematographer. I don't think Phillips wanted to do an exact answer and leave it ambiguous. Lawrence said that cuz he was asked in an interview.

Lets agree to disagree.
 
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Arthur isn't Joker in 80% of the movie. He is Arthur Fleck, and Arthur Fleck is a man angry with society, tired of being bullied and alienated. He isn't a bad man, nor a good mad. He is like an anti hero, punishing those he thinks "deserve" it. .

Yes. That's... I said that. He does kill those HE THINKS deserve it.



The movie is slow burn, it takes its time to get to the Joker point, and i liked that. It makes the transformation even more satisfying, and the movie even more complex.

At that point is wasn't about Arthur being wronged, but him realizing it was time to stop dreaming, to stop fantasying. That's why he does the shooting mock at her. He doesn't want to kill himself anymore..
I don't really agree with that one. Especially when he is seen putting the gun underneath his head whilst rehearsing his knock knock joke. Or even right when he was getting prepped to be on the show and he's in his changing room and puts the gun up underneath his head. I think the whole way through, once he got asked to be on the show, his plan was to kill himself in front of a live audience, and therefore be recognized. "I just hope my death makes more cents than my life" and all .

It wasn't until Murray further angered him that he decided to kill him instead.



If you made Arthur kill her right there, he stops being a character you don't really know to support or understand. That scene happens at the middle of the film, where we are slowly seeing Arthur's true face. Making him murder Sophie would go from 50% to 100% in a second, and show there is no good inside Arthur anymore (and would make Gary scene kinda weird, considering he just murdered another innocent).

... K I'll give you a maybe on that lol.

BUT, maybe, as I said, for some people, they'd already view Arthur as being past that point. Even when he finally does become that full fledged monster, we're at least meant to understand how he got there, even by the end. But never are we meant to support his actions at ANY point in the film, really . Otherwise, the whole "it inspires incels and glorifies violence" **** might as well be considered true.

And again, it'd still be a "Joker's Favor" kind of thing. He doesn't always kill people. Sometimes, he just toys with them. You never know what he's gonna do until he does it.


The movie doesn't want to be that. It wants to make you question if monsters do have a soul, if they can be stopped, if there is humanity inside them. If monsters do have a good side or can have empathy. That's why this movie is so complex and more than the good vs evil comic book characters. I know some may not like that, but i personally loved it.

I mean... Yeah lol. I agree with that . But you can still question that while the monsters are doing... Monstrous things. Hence the entire movie .
 
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Yes. That's... I said that. He does kill those HE THINKS deserve it.




I don't really agree with that one. Especially when he is seen putting the gun underneath his head whilst rehearsing his knock knock joke. Or even right when he was getting prepped to on the show and he's in his changing room and puts the gun up underneath his head. I think the whole way through, once he got asked to be on the show, his plan was to kill himself in front of a live audience, and therefore be recognized. "I just hope my death makes more cents than my life" and all .

It wasn't until Murray further angered him that he decided to kill him instead.





... K I'll give you a maybe on that lol.

BUT, maybe, as I said, for some people, they'd already view Arthur as being past that point. Even when he finally does become that full fledged monster, we're at least meant to understand how he got there, even by the end. But never are we meant to support his actions at ANY point in the film, really . Otherwise, the whole "it inspires incels and glorifies violence" **** might as well be considered true.

And again, it'd still be a "Joker's Favor" kind of thing. He doesn't always kill people. Sometimes, he just toys with them. You never know what he's gonna do until he does it.




I mean... Yeah lol. I agree with that . But you can still question that while the monsters are doing... Monstrous things. Hence the entire movie .
But killing a complete innocent was the line Arthur needed to cross at the end to become Joker. Arthur didn't kill anyone that didn't do wrong to him until the end. Sophie didn't do anything to him, and making the viewer see he understands that and decides to just leave her alone makes him more interesting than just a guy killing people because he wants to. Show he is still rational and can have empathy. It is sad, because it shows a glimpse of humanity of a man that all that wanted was love, and respect. It makes you question if at that point there's still good inside him and makes his fall to Joker even more sad. Imo ofcourse.
 
I guess lol. I see your point. But it really should depend on how the viewer sees Arthur at that point in the film.
 
I'm sorry, wasn't this whole ****ing MOVIE supposed to be all about "no-holds-barred, as dark and disturbing as possible" etc? Now all of a sudden we're talking about changes to appeal to the general audience? Lol

I mean it's not a "change" we've seen enough of "David Ayer says world ending scenerio villains are boring and his film won't feature that" "Paul Rudd says he's not playing Antman" "Jason Momoa says you can punch him in the face if he's Aquaman" "Affleck just said on live national TV that he's still directing The Batman"

It's all promotional stuff

As ‘Joker’ Tops $300 Million, Why Its Biggest Artistic Weakness Is Key To Its Box Office Success

Yes, context matters, but in that sense too, Joker plays it commercially safe. None of the onscreen casualties are aggressively innocent people. No, in real-world morality, none of them deserved to die. But in movie-world, they are the same kind of characters, save for maybe his final implied victim, who you aren’t supposed to mourn when they (for example) fall into the sea, become engulfed in flames or drown in lava in stereotypical disaster movie. They are “safe” victims, either outright villainous or “rude,” chosen for the same reason why Michael Myers didn’t kill that crying baby in Blumhouse’s Halloween sequel. If anything, Joker’s biggest problem, and the source of its “danger,” is that it isn’t transgressive enough.

You can feel the calculation at work to make sure that the film can’t be declared to be sexist, racist or otherwise inflammatory in our current “depiction = endorsement” clickbait media era (not that it stopped us from grasping at straws). Offering a Joker who only kills the rude and isn’t bigoted makes him more of an idealistic protagonist for those who might seem themselves reflected. That said, in a world where racists and anti-Semites took American History X as an endorsement just because Edward Norton’s doomed reformed former neo-Nazi protagonist was taken seriously and looked cinematically cool doing his bad deeds, it may be for the best that Joker didn’t present a more authentically motivated mass murderer.

Moreover, bringing this back to commercial considerations, I would argue that one of the reasons that Joker may leg out is that folks will spread that word that it’s not anywhere near as extreme as it’s been presented since its debut in Venice in late August, and that those on the fence about its content can “handle it” if they have seen their share of R-rated movies. Moreover, if Logan, which features a horrific sequence where an innocent family is slaughtered by a bad guy, can play in China, then there’s nothing in Joker (even the anti-establishment theme focuses on individual wealth at the expense of society in a China-friendly fashion) that would shock China’s film censorship organizations.

That arguable commercial calculation is no different from the choice to make It (the first one) into a glorified, “safe for kids” R-rated Amblin adventure or the choice to make Star Wars: The Force Awakens into a loose rehash of A New Hope. I whined, but they earned $700 million and $2 billion respectively. I’m not about to penalize Joker too much for making commercial concessions that render its story less authentic and/or less uncomfortable, considering the result is a $60 million drama that might top $400 million by Friday. Warts and all, Joker is a ridiculously well-acted visually gorgeous comic book origin story. It’s still a solid three-star entertainment that demands a big screen experience.

Joker is also a commercial product, made by an experienced commercial filmmaker with the intent of making money for a major studio and enhancing an established brand. You can see the ways in which it tries to not cross the line in terms of not having its Joker, for example, burn down an orphanage or spout incel catchphrases as he goes from meek-n-mild to Gotham’s biggest villain. It also has just enough R-rated violence to make (some) folks think it’s edgy but no truly beyond-the-pale content that might threaten word-of-mouth (or make it a recruitment tool for the worst of the worst). In that sense, one of its biggest artistic flaws is also its greatest commercial strength.
 
I didn't know there's a great discussion on the killings recently, just saw this article and wanted to share for interest, backs up to what the cinematographer was saying, she was telling the truth, now I really want to know what color palate she used for real/imaginary scenes!

Todd Phillips confirms Zazie Beetz fate in Joker

“He doesn’t kill her, definitively,” Phillips said. “As the filmmaker and the writer I am saying he doesn’t kill her. We like the idea that it’s almost like a litmus test for the audience to say, ‘how crazy is he?’ Most people that I’ve spoken to think he didn’t kill her because they understand the idea that he only kills people that did him wrong. She had nothing to do with it. Most people understood that, even as a villain, he was living by a certain code. Of course he didn’t kill this woman down the hall.”

The scene in question was a shot of Sophie watching the events unfold on the talk show. This would have shown Sophie to be alive when Arthur no longer interacted with her.

Phillips also explained that up until they were filming, Sophie’s relationship with Arthur was real and not in Arthur’s imagination. As they continued to film, however, he and Phoenix agreed that it didn’t make sense and decided to alter it to be in his mind. As to why the scene was cut, it required the film to change the format of everything being from Arthur’s perspective.
 
I didn't know there's a great discussion on the killings recently, just saw this article and wanted to share for interest, backs up to what the cinematographer was saying, she was telling the truth, now I really want to know what color palate she used for real/imaginary scenes!

Todd Phillips confirms Zazie Beetz fate in Joker

I hate the idea that Joker lives by any sort of code that makes sense, but I'm relieved that Sophie survived. I wouldn't mind seeing her in the sequel.
 
What would be the point of bringing her back in a sequel? She mostly exists in Arthur's head. In reality, we don't really know her beyond the fact she's one of his neighbors.
 
She can be Domino in the sequel

Oh wait which sequel are we on about?

=P
 
I hate the idea that Joker lives by any sort of code that makes sense, but I'm relieved that Sophie survived. I wouldn't mind seeing her in the sequel.

He cared for Sophie that's why he didn't kill her. Much like he doesn't kill Harley.
That said he is still very unpredictable, he cared for his mother but killed her anyway after he learnt about his past. He killed the psychiatrist at the end, who obviously hasn't done him any harm.
He could easily still kill Sophie is she was to (emotionally) harm him in any way...

You have to walk on eggshells around him, very thin eggshells.
 
I didn't know there's a great discussion on the killings recently, just saw this article and wanted to share for interest, backs up to what the cinematographer was saying, she was telling the truth, now I really want to know what color palate she used for real/imaginary scenes!

Todd Phillips confirms Zazie Beetz fate in Joker
The cinematographer is a he, Lawrence Sher. I just thought I'd point that out because you keep refering to him as she.
 

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