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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]389497[/split]
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Yes, he did kill him. He knew Ra's was in the train, and he made a premeditated action, by telling Gordon to blow the tracks. Knowing that he had the equipment to get out himself, and knowing full well that the tracks would be blown, he himself caused the very fate for Ra's. Maybe if Gordon blew the tracks on his own accord, without being consulted by Batman, maybe I could see it that way, but seeing as it was all Batman's idea, I can't see it any other way. He lead him into a trap he knew he wouldn't be able to get out of.Batman didn't kill Ra's. Some of his actions may have led to Ra's Al Ghul's death, but this was more than partially due to Ra's own actions.
And at that point, Batman WASN'T trying to stop it, because he couldn't. He was using the surprise element of the tracks falling apart as a distraction to get the upper hand over Ra's.
Yes, Ra's did, but it was never Batman's idea to stop the train. He even said that.Batman didn't lay a trap for him. Ra's did all the work. Ra's went over and stabbed the controls to the train.
You're still denying the fact that Batman clearly said he never meant to stop the train, and adding to the fact that he told Gordon to blow the tracks, it comes down to it being premeditated. You're the one adding plot points that never happened in the film, just to make it so that Batman never killed anybody. He never said "just in case the train wont stop, blow the tracks". All it shows is that he told Gordon to blow the tracks with The Tumbler, and then he clearly told Ra's that he never meant to stop the train, hence, crashing it with Ra's inside, while he has the equipment to get out.Much like Batman in BB. He doesn't know that Ra's has stopped the train's controls. But he still tells Gordon to blow up the monorail just in case.
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You're still denying the fact that Batman clearly said he never meant to stop the train, and adding to the fact that he told Gordon to blow the tracks, it comes down to it being premeditated. He never said "just in case the train wont stop, blow the tracks". All it shows is that he told Gordon to blow the tracks with The Tumbler, and then he clearly told Ra's that he never meant to stop the train, hence, crashing it with Ra's inside, while he has the equipment to get out.
which to me comes across as "I need you to blow the bridge in case I fail".I'm gonna stop him from loading that train, but I may need your help.
...I didn't.You're the one adding plot points that never happened in the film, just to make it so that Batman never killed anybody.
Yes, he did kill him. He knew Ra's was in the train, and he made a premeditated action, by telling Gordon to blow the tracks. Knowing that he had the equipment to get out himself, and knowing full well that the tracks would be blown, he himself caused the very fate for Ra's. Maybe if Gordon blew the tracks on his own accord, without being consulted by Batman, maybe I could see it that way, but seeing as it was all Batman's idea, I can't see it any other way. He lead him into a trap he knew he wouldn't be able to get out of.
Just because he says the 'magic' words of "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you", doesn't deny the fact that it was a premeditated trap for Ra's.
You're still denying the fact that Batman clearly said he never meant to stop the train, and adding to the fact that he told Gordon to blow the tracks, it comes down to it being premeditated.
So anytime someone makes up a trap, and that person doesn't actually physically kill someone, they aren't to blame for the killing? So now Gordon killed Ra's? Right...1. He didn't actually DO the actions that caused Ra's to die, though. Gordon did. This isn't a military hearing where its Batman's fault for giving Gordon an idea. This is real life, where people have to make moral choices despite the options other people provide them.
Of course it was to stop the train from reaching the tower, but seing as he knew the train wouldn't reach the end of the tracks, he knew the demise of Ra's in the train the second he was on. Thinking otherwise is crazy to even think about.2. It wasn’t a trap for Ra’s. It wasn’t about killing Ra’s Al Ghul at all. It was about preventing the train from reaching Wayne Station to save Gotham City. Period.
He never said "just in case I can't stop the train, blow the tracks". That was NEVER implied at all. Where can you show me that it was the setup to the plan?If you really think Batman just flat out killed Ra's by telling Gordon to do something in case he failed to stop the train, then I don’t think you understand cause and effect. At least in context.
Ohhhh, so the "underlying context" of it all says something different that what he's actually saying? Kinda like you making up plot points that were never implied in the movie? Gotcha....That’s not what Batman said at all. Look at the scene in context. He said “Who said anything about stopping it”? And why did Batman say that? What was the context of the words in the scene?
He said it in response to Ra’s saying “That’s why you can’t stop this train”. While Batman was getting choked to death.
When Batman says “Who said anything about stopping it”, he’s basically grasping at straws to survive, acknowledging that he knows the train can't be stopped and using that to surprise Ra's with his calm over that fact, simultaneously implying that he has an ace up his sleeve to throw Ra's further. He’s saying that because he’s trying to distract Ra’s, so Ra's will look up and see the towers collapsing and remove his attention from Bruce for that split second. Because otherwise, he’s going to die at Ra’s Al Ghul’s hands.
So the "context" of the line "I may need your help" actually means "backup plan"?It’s a ploy to distract Ra's and gain the upper hand, not an admission or a statement of “My plan all along was to derail this train”. Before the event, he clearly says to Gordon "I may need your help". Derailing the train was a backup plan.
So anytime someone makes up a trap, and that person doesn't actually physically kill someone, they aren't to blame for the killing? So now Gordon killed Ra's? Right...
Of course it was to stop the train from reaching the tower, but seeing as he knew the train wouldn't reach the end of the tracks, he knew the demise of Ra's in the train the second he was on.
He never said "just in case I can't stop the train, blow the tracks". That was NEVER implied at all. Where can you show me that it was the setup to the plan?
This isn't the same as tackling Two Face off a ledge. THAT is cause and effect. He didn't know he was going to kill Two Face, but at the same time, he had to save the kid. On the other hand with Ra's, he knew he was dead the second he told Gordon to blow the tracks. He wasn't trying to stop the train, other than derailing it from its tracks. Even the script spells that out clearly.
Ohhhh, so the "underlying context" of it all says something different that what he's actually saying? Kinda like you making up plot points that were never implied in the movie? Gotcha....
He clearly said "who said anything about stopping it", which clearly implies, regardless of the situation, that he was never going to stop it. He could have said anything like "I blew the tracks" if he wanted to 'distract' him. Did it work as a distraction? Sure, but he still told us the truth in that sentence.
So the "context" of the line "I may need your help" actually means "backup plan"?
jesus christ, i completely disagree. He killed him: End of story.
"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you... although... you know I could technically save you, but I don't want to... I want to kill you."
"But if I did save you, I realize that you will see this as weakness on my behalf and come back from prison because I left you alive."