Keep Hope Alive: Marvel Netflix Series Edition

[Spider-Fan]

Not touchy. Just being frank. This debate was going nowhere and neither party is convincing the other.

 

[Xarus]

For clarification between the relationship between marvel entertainment and marvel studios here is what the insider said today in a question

"It’s a bit more than that and really focuses on Ike Perlmutter, but they absolutely have a shirtty relationship. Feige just pretends they don’t exist. And honestly, financially, they don’t really."

In case anyone doesnt doesnt me his name in reddit is sorryeveryonemybad and posts in the defenders reddit. He has verified numerous times with inside info on cancellations and plot info about the series.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Cool story, but it is still just a rumor at this point. Possibly true, sure. Possibly false? Also possible. Even if that is true, things can change in 2 years. We will see how it plays out at the end of the day. So again, agree to disagree

 

[henzINNIT]

I buy the insider's statements but it still doesn't confirm anything. Feige and Perlmutter can absolutely despise each-other all day long but business will continue. Assuming Feige is in a rush to bin off the Netflix characters is questionable. He's achieved tremendous success giving fans what they want. He also turned down the opportunity to make a Daredevil film in the first place. And so the character moved to television and garnered critical acclaim, while the MCU has continued without him. Feige isn't going to reboot characters out of spite, and will no doubt recognize what has worked about the current incarnation.

Feige doesn't have to make friends with Perlmutter, nor do they have to collaborate. The Marvel TV umbrella still exists and will no doubt be considering their options. I have no idea what happens once the rights to these characters opens up again. None of us do. Frankly I find the automatic assumption that they will be rebooted downright bizarre.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Especially given Feige recently brought back JK Simmons. Setting a precedent that he is willing to bring people back to play the same role.

 

[Xarus]

I buy the insider's statements but it still doesn't confirm anything. Feige and Perlmutter can absolutely despise each-other all day long but business will continue. Assuming Feige is in a rush to bin off the Netflix characters is questionable. He's achieved tremendous success giving fans what they want. He also turned down the opportunity to make a Daredevil film in the first place. And so the character moved to television and garnered critical acclaim, while the MCU has continued without him. Feige isn't going to reboot characters out of spite, and will no doubt recognize what has worked about the current incarnation.

Feige doesn't have to make friends with Perlmutter, nor do they have to collaborate. The Marvel TV umbrella still exists and will no doubt be considering their options. I have no idea what happens once the rights to these characters opens up again. None of us do. Frankly I find the automatic assumption that they will be rebooted downright bizarre.

Feige pretends marvel tv doesnt exist. You can handwave the info as much as you want but its pretty telling. He has no interest to acknowledge the shows.

Also he wont reboot the characters out of spite, he will reboot them because he wont put someones else characters in his movies like he did with spider-man and like he will do with the x-men.

If you honestly believe that Feige will be beholden into hours of development a character has had that he wasnt wpproved by him, you are mistaken. He doesnt doe someones else work in his movies. Why do you think the d+ shows the he produces ARE THE ONLY ONES to be included in a slate like movies?

 

[BarryAllen]

I buy the insider's statements but it still doesn't confirm anything. Feige and Perlmutter can absolutely despise each-other all day long but business will continue. Assuming Feige is in a rush to bin off the Netflix characters is questionable. He's achieved tremendous success giving fans what they want. He also turned down the opportunity to make a Daredevil film in the first place. And so the character moved to television and garnered critical acclaim, while the MCU has continued without him. Feige isn't going to reboot characters out of spite, and will no doubt recognize what has worked about the current incarnation.

Feige doesn't have to make friends with Perlmutter, nor do they have to collaborate. The Marvel TV umbrella still exists and will no doubt be considering their options. I have no idea what happens once the rights to these characters opens up again. None of us do. Frankly I find the automatic assumption that they will be rebooted downright bizarre.

Why? We all saw what happened with Spider-Man and what is happening with Fantastic Four and X-Men (aka properties Marvel Studios has nothing to do with). Why should the movies settle for a garbage version of Iron Fist and all of its associated baggage when they can do it better themselves?

The show's costumes are being sold off. The actors are taking new gigs. Jeph Loeb pushed the "It's All Connected" phrase as self-promotion when it was clearly a farce and it's always been a one-way thing. Jarvis from Agent Carter only got an appearance in Endgame because Fiege executive produced the show. He wasn't involved in the others.

 

[BarryAllen]

An interesting observation: There's a lot of self-justification and hypocrisy regarding these Marvel Netflix shows compared to the Fox X-Men and Fan4stic (of which Netflix Iron Fist's quality is comparable too). If these shows weren't produced by Marvel Entertainment with the "illusion" of a possible future movie cross-over, would many people be praising these shows takes on characters like Iron Fist, Elektra, Luke Cage, etc?

Just imagine if these were Fox productions instead of Marvel TV. Wouldn't people nitpicking more? Wouldn't there be more complaints about being ashamed of the source material? About the lack of costumes, the completely different personalities, certain miscast actors, etc? Wouldn't there be more calls for a reboot done by people who cared (like with FF4 coming to the MCU)?

 

[Mike Murdock]

Feige pretends marvel tv doesnt exist. You can handwave the info as much as you want but its pretty telling. He has no interest to acknowledge the shows

Assuming you ignore the times he's acknowledged the shows, I agree.

 

[Xarus]

Assuming you ignore the times he's acknowledged the shows, I agree.

He has never acknowledged the shows in the movies. he acknowledged Agent Carter which he produced and he has already acknowledged the Disney + shows which he also produces going as far as to say they will lead into movies like WandaVision. So the only shows approved by him as canon are the ones he was involved with. Do you see a pattern?

There has NEVER been a Marvel Entertainment show reference in the films in over 6 years and 11+ films. And people are trying to convince me this is unintentional and random.

There is a person that worked in the Netflix shows as a content producer outright saying Feige has no interest in those version of the characters and he straight up pretends Marvel Entertainment doesn't exist. I have actually legit inside info on the matter. You?

 

[Xarus]

Oh and Jon Bernthal has screen-tested for the Disney+ shows for completely new role. You know, Punisher. A Netflix show lead. Screen-testing for an unrelated role. How many of those need to happen before people open their eyes?

 

[I Am The Knight]

I agree with Xarus. There is no hope of these Marvel Netflix versions of the characters being introduced into the MCU

 

[Dark Raven]

I agree with Xarus. There is no hope of these Marvel Netflix versions of the characters being introduced into the MCU

But is there hope of some of the same actors being cast as some of the same characters, like Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin or Charlie Cox as Daredevil? It could be like Judi Dench playing M in the Daniel Craig Bond movies even though it was a different continuity to the Pierce Brosnan ones where she first started playing. Was she the exact same character as before? It would seem not, because the previous version frowned upon the Cold War, whereas the newer version wished it were still going on.

Also, Christopher Lee played Dracula in several different Dracula films, even though they were not connected at all.

And could it be similar to Spider-Man Far From Home where

Spoiler

JK Simmons played J Jonah Jameson again? In his case, it was just the same actor playing the same character, rather than his character from the Raimi movies carrying over to the MCU.

So if D'Onofrio or Cox did play these characters again, they wouldn't be "reprising" their roles as such, but rather it would be a matter of someone like Feige liking them for the role and wanting to use them as he thinks they're the best ones for the job. They wouldn't be carrying over their continuity either, but would function almost as "fresh" castings, but they just happen to have played those roles before in their cases. I'm not saying this should apply to everyone from the Netflix shows, as I don't think everyone works like Finn Jones or Mike Colter. But only a select few would work.

 

[Xarus]

But is there hope of some of the same actors being cast as some of the same characters, like Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin or Charlie Cox as Daredevil? It could be like Judi Dench playing M in the Daniel Craig Bond movies even though it was a different continuity to the Pierce Brosnan ones where she first started playing. Was she the exact same character as before? It would seem not, because the previous version frowned upon the Cold War, whereas the newer version wished it were still going on.

Also, Christopher Lee played Dracula in several different Dracula films, even though they were not connected at all.

And could it be similar to Spider-Man Far From Home where

Spoiler

JK Simmons played J Jonah Jameson again? In his case, it was just the same actor playing the same character, rather than his character from the Raimi movies carrying over to the MCU.

So if D'Onofrio or Cox did play these characters again, they wouldn't be "reprising" their roles as such, but rather it would be a matter of someone like Feige liking them for the role and wanting to use them as he thinks they're the best ones for the job. They wouldn't be carrying over their continuity either, but would function almost as "fresh" castings, but they just happen to have played those roles before in their cases. I'm not saying this should apply to everyone from the Netflix shows, as I don't think everyone works like Finn Jones or Mike Colter. But only a select few would work.

It's not the same as FFH. There is a big difference between a supporting character and a lead. The insider has said it's a longshot because Feige genuinely doesn't care about those versions. It's not that he dislikes them, he doesn't care. If there is a chance in a billion someone could reprise his role as the MCU version of his Netflix character (meaning he will play a new version) it would be Cox. But that is speculation from his part. What's not speculation is that Feige will do NOTHING to accomodate Loeb and Perlmutter. NOTHING. And this is common knowledge among both Marvel Entertainment and Marvel Studios.

It would also create a lot of needless confusion. That's like putting Fassbender to play MCU's Magneto which will be completely different than Fox's Magneto. I don't think Feige wants to do that. And yes i know what happened in FFH. Still we are talking abouu leads here, not supporting characters.

 

[Mike Murdock]

He has never acknowledged the shows in the movies.

He acknowledged them in interviews. I mean, the very next sentence you wrote contradicts this one since Agent Carter was acknowledged in Endgame, but that's not what I said anyway.

 

[metaphysician]

On the matter of the TV and streaming shows, I tend to think in terms of compatibility rather than canonicity. The intent of being part of the MCU matters less than how closely they actually fit in. My ranking goes something like this:

1- Inarguably compatible. Not only does it lack any contradictions, explicit or implicit, but it actively draws from the characters and stories of the movies for its own specific story.

2- Compatible. Lacks any meaningful contradictions, explicit or implicit, but might possess a sense of distancing from the stories of the movies. Has references to the events of the movies, but they are simply that, references.

3- Somewhat Compatible. Lacks any major explicit contradictions, though it may have some amount of implicit contradiction. Might lack any clear reference to the movies, even as an easter egg.

4- Incompatible. Possesses either some noteworthy explicit contradiction, or a fairly serious number and severity of implicit contradictions.

5- Highly Incompatible. Possesses numerous major explicit and implicit contradictions, to the point where reconciling with the movies is essentially impossible.

By this standard, I'd rank Agent Carter a 1, most of the Netflix shows a 2, Runaways and Cloak & Dagger a 3, Defenders and Inhumans a 4, and Agents of SHIELD a 5. I admit, I've not watched Cloak & Dagger or the second season of Runaways, so I could be somewhat off on those. I would also be willing to accept Inhumans as a 5, i just generally feel its less-bad than AoS.

 

[Dark Raven]

On the matter of the TV and streaming shows, I tend to think in terms of compatibility rather than canonicity. The intent of being part of the MCU matters less than how closely they actually fit in. My ranking goes something like this:

1- Inarguably compatible. Not only does it lack any contradictions, explicit or implicit, but it actively draws from the characters and stories of the movies for its own specific story.

2- Compatible. Lacks any meaningful contradictions, explicit or implicit, but might possess a sense of distancing from the stories of the movies. Has references to the events of the movies, but they are simply that, references.

3- Somewhat Compatible. Lacks any major explicit contradictions, though it may have some amount of implicit contradiction. Might lack any clear reference to the movies, even as an easter egg.

4- Incompatible. Possesses either some noteworthy explicit contradiction, or a fairly serious number and severity of implicit contradictions.

5- Highly Incompatible. Possesses numerous major explicit and implicit contradictions, to the point where reconciling with the movies is essentially impossible.

By this standard, I'd rank Agent Carter a 1, most of the Netflix shows a 2, Runaways and Cloak & Dagger a 3, Defenders and Inhumans a 4, and Agents of SHIELD a 5. I admit, I've not watched Cloak & Dagger or the second season of Runaways, so I could be somewhat off on those. I would also be willing to accept Inhumans as a 5, i just generally feel its less-bad than AoS.

I think Inhumans was probably a 3. It didn't have any references to the movie but didn't particularly contradict them either. It could've just been an entirely separate series existing in its own universe.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I do not see how the Defenders shows contradict anything.

 

[Xarus]

He acknowledged them in interviews. I mean, the very next sentence you wrote contradicts this one since Agent Carter was acknowledged in Endgame, but that's not what I said anyway.

I contradicted nothing. Lucas had acknowledged the EU in interviews, that means nothing. If you dont see how significant is that for over 6 years and 11+ movies Feige hasnt even given a nod to the shows, then you are turning a blind eye. He has already confirmed his shows will be acknowledged by the movies from the get go.

And like and several other people have said here Agent carter doesnt count since he was involved in that as a EP. If anything Carter proves my point even further, Feige only officiates as canon shows he has overseen.

 

[henzINNIT]

Feige pretends marvel tv doesnt exist. You can handwave the info as much as you want but its pretty telling. He has no interest to acknowledge the shows.

Also he wont reboot the characters out of spite, he will reboot them because he wont put someones else characters in his movies like he did with spider-man and like he will do with the x-men.

If you honestly believe that Feige will be beholden into hours of development a character has had that he wasnt wpproved by him, you are mistaken. He doesnt doe someones else work in his movies. Why do you think the d+ shows the he produces ARE THE ONLY ONES to be included in a slate like movies?

It's not hand waving. Of course Feige doesn't talk about projects he's not involved with. Once again you are conflating these characters' survival with being fully absorbed into the MCU. You're certainly right on one thing: Feige does have no interest in these shows. The biggest character in the roster is Daredevil, and Feige opted to allow Marvel TV to make a series instead of perusing a film in the MCU. But now we are all assuming he's waiting with baited breath to take him back.

You are arguing against a position I do not hold. I've never said Feige will be compelled to accept these shows into to "his" canon. MCU or nothing is false scenario of your invention. There's a whole department that works independently of the MCU that have made and continue to make shows that exist on the fringes of canon. This is a great place for more adult oriented stories. I'd love to hear a compelling reason why the likes of Jessica Jones or Frank Castle are good candidates for the PG-13 MCU, creatively or financially.

Why? We all saw what happened with Spider-Man and what is happening with Fantastic Four and X-Men (aka properties Marvel Studios has nothing to do with). Why should the movies settle for a garbage version of Iron Fist and all of its associated baggage when they can do it better themselves?

The show's costumes are being sold off. The actors are taking new gigs. Jeph Loeb pushed the "It's All Connected" phrase as self-promotion when it was clearly a farce and it's always been a one-way thing. Jarvis from Agent Carter only got an appearance in Endgame because Fiege executive produced the show. He wasn't involved in the others.

Disney/Marvel got those rights back from competing studios. The characters need rebooting to fit into existing canon.

The Netflix characters are already owned by Disney/Marvel, and they chose to farm them out to television.

Totally different situations.

An interesting observation: There's a lot of self-justification and hypocrisy regarding these Marvel Netflix shows compared to the Fox X-Men and Fan4stic (of which Netflix Iron Fist's quality is comparable too). If these shows weren't produced by Marvel Entertainment with the "illusion" of a possible future movie cross-over, would many people be praising these shows takes on characters like Iron Fist, Elektra, Luke Cage, etc?

Just imagine if these were Fox productions instead of Marvel TV. Wouldn't people nitpicking more? Wouldn't there be more complaints about being ashamed of the source material? About the lack of costumes, the completely different personalities, certain miscast actors, etc? Wouldn't there be more calls for a reboot done by people who cared (like with FF4 coming to the MCU)?

Where is the self-justification or hypocrisy? The only people I see obsessed with the MCU connection "illusion" are those who have come into this thread to reject it. I think most who liked the shows are more concerned with seeing these characters again, not seeing them get coffee with Hawkeye.

I also think even the most hopeful Netflix fans would be happy to point out what they didn't like. There was some trash to be sure.

 

[metaphysician]

I think Inhumans was probably a 3. It didn't have any references to the movie but didn't particularly contradict them either. It could've just been an entirely separate series existing in its own universe.

The problem with Inhumans is that it has numerous superhumans rampaging fairly openly all over Hawaii, over an extended period, and the overall superhero response is. . . non-existent. This is what I mean by "implicit contradictions", where its not what is there, but what isn't there that should be. I'm willing to grant a lot of leeway with regard to different heroes not showing up in other's "comics", so to speak, but when you have that much battle over that long a period? The usual easy answers of "Nobody noticed" and "Too small to matter" and "Over too fast" don't really work. At the very least, they needed some kind of explicit justification for why no Avengers or super agencies could show up. Hence the 4.

 

[metaphysician]

I do not see how the Defenders shows contradict anything.

The Hand's plot would have leveled New York City with an earthquake. The same city where the Order of Kamar-Taj keeps one of its Sanctums, the keystones for the planetary defense barrier. The Hand's plot is thus a direct threat to the safety of the entire planet, perpetrated by an organization whose occult activities put it center in the Order's purview of activity, and whose power is utterly insufficient to survive against any hostilities.

Bearing that all in mind, the overall result is "Why are they not dead?" A secret mystical society going around periodically blowing up cities is the kind of thing that really should have had sorcerers pop out of portals and just murder everyone. And its not *really* plausible that the Order of Kamar-Taj wouldn't know of their existence; the Hand were secretive, but not so secretive that entire other hostile mystic orders don't know all about them and their activities.

What's more, this is all assuming the Hand *don't* know about Order of Kamar-Taj. If they *do*, its even worse, because it means they knowingly enacted a plan that would anger a force far beyond their ability to survive. At least versus the Avengers, they could be counting on secrecy.

So, yes. I pick them a 4, because their plot has serious "this probably shouldn't have gotten off the ground before sorcerers appear and murder everyone" issues. I suppose you could go "The Ancient One divined the future and saw the problem would solve itself", but that feels like a *really* scant justification, and still only works if the Hand are ignorant.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The Hand's plot would have leveled New York City with an earthquake. The same city where the Order of Kamar-Taj keeps one of its Sanctums, the keystones for the planetary defense barrier. The Hand's plot is thus a direct threat to the safety of the entire planet, perpetrated by an organization whose occult activities put it center in the Order's purview of activity, and whose power is utterly insufficient to survive against any hostilities.

Bearing that all in mind, the overall result is "Why are they not dead?" A secret mystical society going around periodically blowing up cities is the kind of thing that really should have had sorcerers pop out of portals and just murder everyone. And its not *really* plausible that the Order of Kamar-Taj wouldn't know of their existence; the Hand were secretive, but not so secretive that entire other hostile mystic orders don't know all about them and their activities.

What's more, this is all assuming the Hand *don't* know about Order of Kamar-Taj. If they *do*, its even worse, because it means they knowingly enacted a plan that would anger a force far beyond their ability to survive. At least versus the Avengers, they could be counting on secrecy.

So, yes. I pick them a 4, because their plot has serious "this probably shouldn't have gotten off the ground before sorcerers appear and murder everyone" issues. I suppose you could go "The Ancient One divined the future and saw the problem would solve itself", but that feels like a *really* scant justification, and still only works if the Hand are ignorant.

Yeah, just no. This goes under the same category as the Avengers not helping Tony in Iron Man 3. Despite being presumed dress from a very public attack. The fact the sorcerers didn't get involved is not a contradiction. It just wasn't their story. Just like every world ending event that happens in comics that isn't s a mega team up.

 

[Xarus]

It's not hand waving. Of course Feige doesn't talk about projects he's not involved with. Once again you are conflating these characters' survival with being fully absorbed into the MCU. You're certainly right on one thing: Feige does have no interest in these shows. The biggest character in the roster is Daredevil, and Feige opted to allow Marvel TV to make a series instead of perusing a film in the MCU. But now we are all assuming he's waiting with baited breath to take him back.

You are arguing against a position I do not hold. I've never said Feige will be compelled to accept these shows into to "his" canon. MCU or nothing is false scenario of your invention. There's a whole department that works independently of the MCU that have made and continue to make shows that exist on the fringes of canon. This is a great place for more adult oriented stories. I'd love to hear a compelling reason why the likes of Jessica Jones or Frank Castle are good candidates for the PG-13 MCU, creatively or financially.



Disney/Marvel got those rights back from competing studios. The characters need rebooting to fit into existing canon.

The Netflix characters are already owned by Disney/Marvel, and they chose to farm them out to television.

Totally different situations.



Where is the self-justification or hypocrisy? The only people I see obsessed with the MCU connection "illusion" are those who have come into this thread to reject it. I think most who liked the shows are more concerned with seeing these characters again, not seeing them get coffee with Hawkeye.

I also think even the most hopeful Netflix fans would be happy to point out what they didn't like. There was some trash to be sure.

Im arguing with people whether the shows are mcu canon. They are not. This is my position and i have actual inside info to back it up compared to some folks here who are fixated with what Loeb said 4 years to sell the shows in an era when Perlmutter could force Feige to do anything. Any chance of the shows being canon died in 2015.

If people would just accept that the shows take place in an alternate reality that has A VERSION of Avengers, not necessarily the MCU one like Titans does we wouldnt have this conversation.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Cool story bro.