The Amazing Spider-Man Keep the ORGANICS or WEB SHOOTERS???!!!!

[ModestMr.Green]

I can't imagine how it would matter. I don't know about the comics, but I'm watching Spectacular Spider-Man episodes on Youtube right this minute, and there have been a few instances wherein he ran out of web, flipped in a cartridge, and kept on chugging. Didn't really add to or subtract from the plot...but I guess I'll go with web shooters, since it's in line with the original character.

 

[Nathan]

The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon didn't explore the webshooters too much. There wasn't any of the special web mixing that he sometimes did in the comics. There was only one point in the cartoon where he cleverly used a cartridge of the webshooters to escape from the Vault cell.

 

[MrSpyder]

Web shooters. Cause there is so much he can do with them. Like alter them to his liking or change chemicals to fit certain needs

 

[Vaportrail]

I think organic works better in the movies so far. In comics, you can build up tension in certain issues if his mechanical ones are broken, but in a movie if he were to break them, he's screwed.
He can't just magically fix them to have them be used to the rest of the final battle if they're broken at some point.

Although, I do love what he did with them when he was captured by Silvermane.
I don't suppose I'd mind either way. I don't think they need to change it though. Organic works just fine.


I'm mostly worried about the webbing on his costume. RAISED WEBBING IN 2012!!

 

[E-Man]

It doesn't matter to me. There can be good stories told from both. I think organic shooters are more natural, and they're easier to explain. Mechanical shooters are a big part of Spider-man's history, so there are places you can go in regards to them as well.

 

[Crook]

I think organic works better in the movies so far. In comics, you can build up tension in certain issues if his mechanical ones are broken, but in a movie if he were to break them, he's screwed.
He can't just magically fix them to have them be used to the rest of the final battle if they're broken at some point.

What's so special about that scenario that requires alteration or extra consideration when transferring between two mediums? This is the third time I've seen this type of critique and I'm wondering what I'm missing here.

 

[The Slang]

I think if they are to have Spider-Man using mechanical web-shooters. They should show him experimenting with foam fire extinguishers. Particularly if he likes to work in a laboratory quite often. Perhaps that can be the basis for how Spider-Man devises his gadgets. He sees things around him which he adapts. I know he needs to invent certain things but it's nice to see how he look at objects around him, take them apart and apply his scientific mind to augment them to suit him.

There already are non lethal restraint weapons that fire foam or adhesives. He doesn't need to base it on a fire extinguisher. Remember the foam gun used to trap Hulk in ang lees movie? I've seen real versions of those weapons used on people (with humurous results). Then there's net launchers and those things with two weights connected by rope that the indians would throw. These are the things he should be basing his web shooters on.

 

[SuperAl]

if they want it realistic it should shoot out of his butt like spiders lol

 

[Chris Wallace]

Want organic, expect mechanical.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Web Shooters. Give him the scientific mind from the comics,...proof is him creating 'actual' Web. It also helps if he has to create a cure for Doc Connors.

 

[spidermilk]

Organic powers with mechanical web shooters, it doesn't makes sense that he can shoot strands of silk out of his wrist at 200mph e.t.c.

 

[©KAW]

Want organic, expect mechanical.

Want mechanical, expect organic.

 

[spidermilk]

if they want it realistic it should shoot out of his butt like spiders lol

ahaha

 

[Deadfish95]

Just try web shooters for this, and then slowly change into organics

 

[©KAW]

Just try web shooters for this, and then slowly change into organics

Riiiiight, go from the source material back to crap. No thank you.

 

[Agent 194]

I've always felt having webshooters grounded him a little more as a human being. Making him more one of us. Being able to stick to walls is not as odd to me as your body producing a sticky chemical that threads out your forearm.

 

[Golgo-13]

I've always felt having webshooters grounded him a little more as a human being. Making him more one of us. Being able to stick to walls is not as odd to me as your body producing a sticky chemical that threads out your forearm.

This.

I didn't mind organics at all but it made him seem more of a mutant to me.....

 

[Mach2Infinity]

Yeah, looking back at it now you did focus a lot on the concept rather than method. But considering how much I referenced the wrists, and with you not particularly dismissing it, I had assumed that was no big deal to you. Which it still might not, hell, it's not to me either. But I prefer concepts and ideas to be as fully thought out as possible rather than using "it's fantasy!" as a crutch.

I agree entirely. As I said earlier. If you can make the fantastical as believable as possible to the audience. Then they will not question these potential 'distracting' elements and therefore remain within the fantasy world. Which hopefully means they'll be further engrossed and absorbed into that very world. I agree that one shouldn't diminish material simply because it is based in ficticious reality. If I were to say "Well it's fiction" it would be a detail which doesn't need to be explained since a certain reality lends itself to making a certain fantastical element more credible.

As for the organic web-shooters concept. I have to be honest, before this debate I wasn't particularly bothered if the web was shot from the wrist or not. Now, I would prefer it if they used the base of the palm. That's if they decide to go down the organic route once more.

Truth be told "organic web-shooters" should only indicate as much as it sounds; silk secreted naturally, not necessarily where. However, Raimi's team coined the term, it's sparked heated debates amongst the community for the past decade, so the term is intertwined with wrist placement on a 'its understood' basis.

You can imagine the "organic.." term will catch out many that are not wary of how divisive this debate can be. I of course did not realise until I found myself being questioned. Besides the internet is full of ellipsis due to people's propensity by large to use abbreviations and acronyms. I try to avoid them particularly to minimise ambiguity and to be clear as possible!

I should have pointed it out much earlier in the discussion, but the whole aversion to Raimi's method, for me, was it added just one more tick to the "This doesn't stand up too well under criticism" list. One isn't much, of course. But it does add up if other concepts fall to the same analysis. Evidently the idea hasn't had caused ruckus outside the fandom, but regardless as a fan I appreciate when the director goes out of his way to apply as much logic and meticulous craftsmanship to his project. Webshooters are a big staple for the character, so I think it deserves some time from the creative team.

If they do decide to use mechanical web-shooters. I do hope they make a big effort with explaining how it works. How Peter Parker finds the material and tie it with some science work/hobby with which he's involved. I think it would be fascinating to have a scene where Peter is busy in his workshop. Assembling the mechanical web-shooters, experimenting with different fluid and so forth. Essentially 'troubleshooting' the device. Rather than show him quickly sticking bits together and within one hour he has a fully functioning mechanical web-shooter. A trial and error theme if you will can be introduced. I.e. he shoots the web to swing and so forth but finds certain faults during a battle. Then he has to go back to the drawingboard and fix the problem.

I greatly appreciate your candour in this whole affair. It's good to resolve things maturally. As too often heated arguments ensue and it becomes a mere spectacle or sideshow for the casual poster. Moreover the topic becomes lost in a milieu of ego-bashing and snide exchanges. Let's hope others will follow our good example

 

[Mach2Infinity]

What makes you think that?
The other issues are just as important if not more so-

-Spidey’s wise cracks
-PP being cast/portrayed correctly
-MJ’s or any of the main characters being portrayed correctly etc etc

Well you pretty much repeated what I said:

"a lacklustre Mary-Jane Watson, a whinging Aunt May, a humourless Spider-Man (the jokes were bad), a visually disappointing Green Goblin, killing off supervillains, making the villains too closely tied to Peter Parker and sympathetic. Let's not forget the crammed affair that was the third film."

Context being these are the elements on which they'll need to improve for the next film series.

I meant that if one simply focuses on technical detail alone (i.e web-shooters, costume colours, webbing under arm pits, size of eyes, spider symbol etc) then one may dismiss or overlook the more critical elements. To which I've already alluded. Of course they'll want to distinguish the next incarnation of Spider-Man from the previous one. It's so patently clear that it needs no mention. What I'm saying is not everything has to be changed for the sake of being different (regardless of whether one approves of the changes or not).

But the webshooters are up there too. Of course they are not going to miss the rest of the important stuff, but I’m saying they will also, stylistically want this spider-man to be as distinguishable from the Raimi-Spider-Man as Bale-Batman was to the Batman of the 1990’s film franchise. Like I said this stuff is easy to understand, we are not discussing nuclear fusion.

Well of course the Christopher Nolan interpretation of Batman followed a formula. To ground the character in a more 'real' reality which is how they catered all of his gadgetry to fit such a reality. If the film makers decide they want a more technically gifted Peter Parker (compared to Sam Raimi's) then fine incorporate the mechanical web-shooters. It would then make perfect sense. To simply change things to be different because they're 'new' to a certain medium (in this case film) seems silly and lacks the precision of mind one would expect when drawing up a new reality for a character with an extensive lore and one which has been in existence for decades. Stylistically speaking, the most obvious place to start is the costume. It won't be hugely different of course but enough to differeniate it from the previous one. The symbol on the back for instance (which is rather obvious). For something which does not have the complexity of nuclear fusion, it can easily be overlooked by those whose focus is in the wrong area

Heheh, I was not relying on the poll results for my arguments validity. I was merely citing them as a glance at the opinions of a small, yet random percentage of fandom. My argument needs no one else’s acceptance to validate it. It is valid through me reading SM comics for the past 20 odd years.

You certainly used the poll results try and strenghten your argument and if they were not so important to you as you state. Then I think you would not have bothered mentioning it in the first place. I did smile however when previously you said "Me, and PLENTY of other Spider-fans" but then above you say "the opinions of a small, yet random percentage of fandom." So you state there is a large/considerable consenus of opinion which supports your view yet they represent a very small number of the fan-base. So in effect they're meaningless and rather inconsequential?

I’ll stick w/ the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko version.
Y’ know, - how it’s supposed to be.

Although the films successfully deviated from the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko interpretation (and publicly Stan Lee stated he didn't mind). Besides it's not the only way so it shouldn't be definite (your statement implies there is not much room to 'manoeuvre' away from that position).

I get it- you prefer organics, I don’t. I prefer mechs.
You prefer the idea of a hybrid system device that Spidey creates, I don’t.
I prefer Spidey crafting actual mechanical webshooters and whipping up the web fluid himself, the stuff that disintegrates after an hour.

Righto, you didn't need to re-tread over these things since we had established it earlier.

One of the main reasons mechs are better is because the web fluid/cartridges often run out at the least desirable times making Spidey think on his feet in dangerous situations. That’s aside from the visual metaphor for his scientific abilities, it being how he was originally designed, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it & and it would please the longtime fans. Meaning fans prior to the 21st century.

The whole point of why I suggested the hybrid device was to accomodate Peter Parker's scientific accumen and in my view broaden it. If he were able to create a device which could interact with his own biology. To the point where it can manipulate web excretion (size and shape) then it would be a phenomenal piece of technical craftmanship. To combine technology with biology and make it work intricately is an astounding feat. Which I think goes beyond mere mechanical web-shooters (whilst also evolving the organic web-shooters from Sam Raimi's films).

Furthermore, not all longtime fans may share your views. Many of them may equally be 'pleased' if they kept/modified the organic web-shooter concept. Perhaps some fans prefer different interpretations for each medium. You can take the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" mantra and apply it to the films. Did it hurt the character on screen by having organic web-shooters? You shouldn't simply apply it to one interpretation and not the rest. Particularly in the same medium as the one which did not have big problems with the organic web-shooters (certainly after been released in cinemas).

I have already explained numerous times that one of the main reasons mechs are better is because of them representing a limited ability which in effect is a slight weakness thus making battles more interesting.

What I have said continually is that you can replicate these effects (if one wishes) to do the same with the organic web-shooters. Which would suggest they would be more on par.

Sounds lame, heh.

Well I give a sincere and rather plausible reasoning for how organic-web shooters could give Spider-Man the same 'danger' dynamic as the mechanical web-shooters. To which you reply rather nonchalantly which really says it all.

We could swap the webshooters with anything from the list of stuff that needs fixing like ..say, the origin, and pose the question- Are you going to spend the rest of the film upset if they don’t fix the origin (Ben died at home not in the road), but everything else inc- correct characterization, wise cracks & webshooters are fixed?

Well, no again, I’m gonna be happy that the majority of stuff is fixed.
What does that prove? NOTHING. The point is,- having mechs this time instead of organics is just as important as all those other issues.

I merely questioned whether you prioritised the critical components of a film (narrative, themes, characerisation etc) over that of stylistic changes (largely superficial). I'll take your word for it but then it makes your posts redundant if you insist that the lack of mechanical web-shooters will not affect your overall enjoyment of the film and yet you dedicate much verbage to it. I personally don't care if they use organic/mechanical web-shooters because he will have web-shooters nonetheless. I only say there is no need to change them to simply be different (which is one important part of your overall argument).

Yes of course the web-shooters are one part of Spider-Man's character and a potential place of focus. Yes of course it belongs to a greater question of would you like to improve/change for Spider-Man. However, since this thread is focused (or more limited) in its scope it's only natural I'm going to concentrate on web-shooters now, isn't it?

Every six months I’ll frequent-

2x Liverpool
2x Manchester
3x Leeds
1x Chester

Conversations either overheard or that I have been part of have indicated a general preference of mechs in Spidey talk.

There are 17 Forbidden Planet stores in the UK. There's also bookshops which sell graphic novels and independent comic book stores too. It would be fair to say that you visit a small proportion of the UK's comic book stores. Furthermore, from the ones you listed they only cover one part of the UK. Indeed only a region of England. I would imagine there to be a larger number of comic book readers in the south. Particularly in the greater London area. So as you've noted above. You've 'heard' opinions from a small number of the total fan-base of course (the largest obviously being American who could easily dwarf numbers in the UK - they could boost them too). You're also not there all the time so on different days you may have varying results.

It’s neither facile nor obtuse.
I never said these small pools of opinions have provided me with the opinion of the entire planets worth of Spidey fans, you just seem to have inferred that. I said that all internet polls and comic store talk I have witnessed has pointed toward mechs as the popular choice.

Again it's rather meaningless if these opinions and polls represent a very small number of fans. I can't work out whether you really value the polls or not. First you said you had the consensus of many others then you say they're only a small number of a very large fan-base. Which means they cannot be an accurate indicator of a general trend or not (despite the possibility you might be right). Therefore I don';t see how they further your argument much.

This sounds like your ego talking.
I don’t wish to battle with it.
That’s spiritual unconsciousness.
Read ‘The Power of Now’, it’s freakin awesome!

Listen, of you're going to give me a churlish and glib answer such as "deal with it" (which suggests you have a problem with debating a topic) then don't expect a genteel response. It's nothing to do with ego and more with manners and being mature. If you don't want to discuss it further fine, simply say so maturely. Otherwise I think someone's ego may be to blame .

There already are non lethal restraint weapons that fire foam or adhesives. He doesn't need to base it on a fire extinguisher. Remember the foam gun used to trap Hulk in ang lees movie? I've seen real versions of those weapons used on people (with humurous results). Then there's net launchers and those things with two weights connected by rope that the indians would throw. These are the things he should be basing his web shooters on.

Would Peter Parker conceivably have access to non-lethal weaponry? Does the possession and use of one require a licence? It would be much easier (and I suspect cheaper) for him to get his hands on a foam fire extinguisher. Particularly since he's most likely to work in a laboratory with numerous flammable an volatile materials. I like the idea of a net launcher. It follows the idea that Spider-Man can trap and perhaps cocoon his prey as a spider does. Perhaps even a special type of web can be fired rather than a standard net. The counterweights with rope idea would require small counterweights if they were fired from the mechanical/hybrid web-shooter. He certainly wouldn't carry one on his belt.

if they want it realistic it should shoot out of his butt like spiders lol

Ignoring the possibility you're fishing for laughs. As I have shown. There are certain species of spider that can excrete web from their legs:

Link

 

[The Slang]

Would Peter Parker conceivably have access to non-lethal weaponry? Does the possession and use of one require a licence? It would be much easier (and I suspect cheaper) for him to get his hands on a foam fire extinguisher. Particularly since he's most likely to work in a laboratory with numerous flammable an volatile materials. I like the idea of a net launcher. It follows the idea that Spider-Man can trap and perhaps cocoon his prey as a spider does. Perhaps even a special type of web can be fired rather than a standard net. The counterweights with rope idea would require small counterweights if they were fired from the mechanical/hybrid web-shooter. He certainly wouldn't carry one on his belt.

He could just find a schematic for the non-lethal weapon. I was talking more about the design phase. If he's salvaging parts then yeah, a fire extinguisher could work. I'd like to see the webbing behave more like conventional projectiles in a way. And the webshooters should have various presets that shape and change the type of shot.
*One for a 'rubber bullet' type projectile. Able to break windows and cause considerable pain.
*One for a paintball-like-glob that spreads on impact. Ideal for gluing someones hand to the wall/floor.
*Standard webline of course for swinging and tethering.
*A net launcher. fires an expanding cluster of sticky weights connected by fibres. Ideal for producing a hammock like net, binding someones legs, or binding someones arms to their body.
*A webline with an expanding net tip. Ideal for creating a shield to catch debris/projectiles.
*A liquid cement stream that drys extremely fast, forming a solid shell.

Raimi intentionally avoided having Spider-man entangle or cacoon people with webbing for some reason.

 

[The Slang]

They should call him the web slinger for a reason. I wanna see him bust some moves that would put clint eastwood to shame. Like taunting a guy and shooting the gun out of his hand before he can hurt his hostage.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Raimi intentionally avoided having Spider-man entangle or cacoon people with webbing for some reason.

Because he wasn't planning to eat them? I only saw him cocooning people when McFarlane drew him, which never made sense to me. If all he was looking to do was incapacitate people, why do more than what's necessary?

 

[Eggyman]

I don't like sitting on the fence, but there's something that would answer a lot of complaints on both sides: He has organic webbing and creates the shooters to utilise it to its full potential. With this he could still add things to it via attachments.

 

[AlexRoss]

Mechanical, organic is heresy and this is ultimately why Sam Raimi's series crashed and burned. The pebble that started the avalanche.

 

[Dangerous]

Well you pretty much repeated what I said:

"a lacklustre Mary-Jane Watson, a whinging Aunt May, a humourless Spider-Man (the jokes were bad), a visually disappointing Green Goblin, killing off supervillains, making the villains too closely tied to Peter Parker and sympathetic. Let's not forget the crammed affair that was the third film."

Context being these are the elements on which they'll need to improve for the next film series.

I meant that if one simply focuses on technical detail alone (i.e web-shooters, costume colours, webbing under arm pits, size of eyes, spider symbol etc) then one may dismiss or overlook the more critical elements. To which I've already alluded. Of course they'll want to distinguish the next incarnation of Spider-Man from the previous one. It's so patently clear that it needs no mention. What I'm saying is not everything has to be changed for the sake of being different (regardless of whether one approves of the changes or not).

And what I am saying is that the mechs are as important to me as all the other important elements we agree on. You don’t think so, but we don’t need to chew it over forever.

Well of course the Christopher Nolan interpretation of Batman followed a formula. To ground the character in a more 'real' reality which is how they catered all of his gadgetry to fit such a reality. If the film makers decide they want a more technically gifted Peter Parker (compared to Sam Raimi's) then fine incorporate the mechanical web-shooters. It would then make perfect sense. To simply change things to be different because they're 'new' to a certain medium (in this case film) seems silly and lacks the precision of mind one would expect when drawing up a new reality for a character with an extensive lore and one which has been in existence for decades. Stylistically speaking, the most obvious place to start is the costume. It won't be hugely different of course but enough to differeniate it from the previous one. The symbol on the back for instance (which is rather obvious). For something which does not have the complexity of nuclear fusion, it can easily be overlooked by those whose focus is in the wrong area

I agree that the costume certainly needs to approached from a different angle. I did not like anything about it; - the spider designs, the horrid raised webbing that often looked silver on screen, and often was on tie in merch, the triangle eyes, the painted on muscles. UGH. But the prime motivation for using mechs this time would be to be more faithful to the source material and the character and his abilities. As a bonus it would just help differentiate the two film series.

Although the films successfully deviated from the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko interpretation (and publicly Stan Lee stated he didn't mind). Besides it's not the only way so it shouldn't be definite (your statement implies there is not much room to 'manoeuvre' away from that position).

Successful according to who? The box office sure, but in mine and a vast chunk of fandoms opinions the films changed a lot of stuff for the worse.

The whole point of why I suggested the hybrid device was to accomodate Peter Parker's scientific accumen and in my view broaden it. If he were able to create a device which could interact with his own biology. To the point where it can manipulate web excretion (size and shape) then it would be a phenomenal piece of technical craftmanship. To combine technology with biology and make it work intricately is an astounding feat. Which I think goes beyond mere mechanical web-shooters (whilst also evolving the organic web-shooters from Sam Raimi's films).

I don’t think that does go beyond the mechs as a technical achievement.
I mean how the hell could it be? It’s only half the achievement.

Half the work would already be done if his body was already naturally producing the web fluid rather than him having to mix that stuff up himself. That was an incredible achievement in itself; - creating a man made web fluid that hardens in less than a second, is stronger than nylon and dissolves after an hour. That was amazing.

Devising the mech webshooters alone, but not the web fluid would only be half the job.
He’d have a holes on his wrists that web would come out of and then he’d just build the webshooters to fit over the holes. Big deal.

Furthermore, not all longtime fans may share your views. Many of them may equally be 'pleased' if they kept/modified the organic web-shooter concept.

Righto, you didn't need to re-tread over these things since we had established it earlier.

You can take the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" mantra and apply it to the films. Did it hurt the character on screen by having organic web-shooters?

IMO yes, and I have explained why in my previous posts.

What I have said continually is that you can replicate these effects (if one wishes) to do the same with the organic web-shooters. Which would suggest they would be more on par.

Why bother when you can do something much better and this time- Use the mech webshooters and have the webs how they are supposed to be- Peter Parker’s greatest scientific achievement, comic faithful and in turn please the comic fans.

Well I give a sincere and rather plausible reasoning for how organic-web shooters could give Spider-Man the same 'danger' dynamic as the mechanical web-shooters. To which you reply rather nonchalantly which really says it all.

I was being honest. It is a lame idea.
Why not just use the mech webshooters instead of going all around the woods thinking of a new elaborate way to use organic webbing. What do you have against the mechs and I’m guessing you did not read Spidey comics prior to 2002?

I think of the people who became fans through the films and love them; - their opinions don’t matter (in terms of anything apart from BO) because they are at a disposition to think about this aspect of the character from an unbiased standpoint. And faithfulness to the source w/ something as important as the specifics Spider-Man’s abilities and powers is of crucial importance.

There are 17 Forbidden Planet stores in the UK. There's also bookshops which sell graphic novels and independent comic book stores too. It would be fair to say that you visit a small proportion of the UK's comic book stores. Furthermore, from the ones you listed they only cover one part of the UK. Indeed only a region of England.

Well actually, Leeds is not in the North West it’s West Yorkshire.

I would imagine there to be a larger number of comic book readers in the south. Particularly in the greater London area. So as you've noted above. You've 'heard' opinions from a small number of the total fan-base of course (the largest obviously being American who could easily dwarf numbers in the UK - they could boost them too). You're also not there all the time so on different days you may have varying results.

Again it's rather meaningless if these opinions and polls represent a very small number of fans. I can't work out whether you really value the polls or not. First you said you had the consensus of many others then you say they're only a small number of a very large fan-base. Which means they cannot be an accurate indicator of a general trend or not (despite the possibility you might be right). Therefore I don';t see how they further your argument much.

It was an observation of random albeit small pools of opinions in North England comic shops and online polls indicating a preference towards mechs. Take from that what you will.

Listen, of you're going to give me a churlish and glib answer such as "deal with it" (which suggests you have a problem with debating a topic) then don't expect a genteel response. It's nothing to do with ego and more with manners and being mature. If you don't want to discuss it further fine, simply say so maturely. Otherwise I think someone's ego may be to blame .

I said deal w/ it because you seemed to have difficulty in accepting my opinion.
The ‘ego’ is just your minds idea of who you are, and one of its main means by which to stay in control of its host (that’s you or I) is to find ways to make itself right and other people wrong. I can see that your last sentence here came from your ego because of this.

No one is really right or wrong here, we are just exchanging opinions. I am a comicbook guy so I always prefer these movie adaptations to be as faithful as possible because the deviations never improve over the original designs.

The book ‘The Power of Now’ is really cool, I wasn’t making a smart ass remark.
I try to get everyone to read it but obviously only a small amount of people ever do.
It’s only about 5 bucks on amazon and you would thank me for recommending it.