Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut

How can it be the worse when Alexander (as you mentioned), Troy and King Arthur are also on the hit list though?
 
Ok, I've just watched it in it's entirety and it is the epic we were expecting of Ridley Scott last summer. What a shame for FOX to make him cut the film up and all we were left with was a beautiful, but pretty hollow film. I liked the theatrical cut, but I love the director's cut. Did you have some questions about the TC that weren't answered when you saw it? The Director's Cut has all the answers. It goes more into depth with the characters, especially Sybilla. Her role in the film is given much more weight because of the added scenes, which include the subplot of her son. You'll understand how Balian is such a good swordsman and strategist. Did I mention that Liam Neeson has about 10-15 minutes more screentime in this version? That's reason enough to dance. Other characters, such as Edward Norton's King Baldwin and David Thewlis' Hospitaller are given much more to do. I consider this to be one of the best of Scott's epics, right up there with Alien, Blade Runner, Black Hawk Down, and Gladiator.
 
I usually disagree with everything Stormy says so I'm looking foward to this :up:
 
DACrowe said:
How can it be the worse when Alexander (as you mentioned), Troy and King Arthur are also on the hit list though?

The Battle at Gaugamala in Alexander alone tops this entire film(which wouldn't take much). As weak as Pitt's performance may have been, Achilles and Hector are vastly more interesting characters than anybody in KOH(except maybe Baldwin, but he's used very sparingly), and I wasn't falling asleep watching those as I was here, even during the pathetic battle sequence that shows me the same thing over and over that wasn't the least bit impressive the first time. All this plodding piece of **** did was show me what I've already seen done better in Braveheart, Gladiator, LOTR, Troy, King Arthur, Alexander...
I've never been more disappointed in a movie in my life, all this Director's Cut did was make a weak film even weaker. Scott managed to underwhelm me even more this time than he did a year ago.

I don't know how someone can think Spider Man(one of the worst movies I've ever seen in theatres) is a good movie or anything remotely resembling one either, but we should be used to completely disagreeing by now.
 
INdeed. However KOH while an epic was not really an action movie and used the battle more as the climax but is more about the people. Unfortunately the studio cut out most of the character (or half anyway) that made that interesting.

And I agree it was slow, but I felt that it help build the tension but that is different tastes. But I think Alexander was much more plodding and while both battle sequences (I preferred the Indian jungle battle honestly) and Val Kilmer's performance and his scenes were all top notch, the movie itself was a bore and a huge failure in my eyes. And King Arthur was just a very dull but pretty film. It seemed like they took the already mediocre Tears of the Sun and just reshot it in the middle ages and shot it in Ireland (I know it is at the fall of the Roman Empire, but it doesn't like it).

Different tastes though. And I never said Spider-Man was a great movie (well maybe 4 years ago) but it is quite good and a flawed fun movie. I do think the second is great though.
 
I didn't have any problem with it not being an action movie, the poor battle sequence just adds to the films poor quality for me. I found most the script totally uninvolving and the movie as a whole just gave me a been there done that feeling of saturation throughout(and I loved Farrells performance in Alexander by the way, extremely passionate, far more so than anything here).

I thought Tears of the Sun was damned good too, so the fact that King Arthur reminded me of it didn't bother me one bit, and I cared more about the Knights and Guinevere far more than Balian and Sybilla.

What I said about SM was "I don't know someone can think it's good, or anything remotely resembling it," I know you didn't say it was great.

I agree the second is a vast improvement, but almost anything would've been.
 
I thought Farllel was okay but way tooo over the top and by the end melodramatic soap operaish. And i didn't give two ****s about anyone in King Arthur, but that is a difference of opinion.

Well I just saw the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven last night. Wooh. While the TC felt long (because it was edited so poorly) this WAS long. But it was good. It is a very good, but somewhat flawed movie. The director's cut did not fix all the problems like the fans have ravingly said. The first 40 minutes are still having trouble finding their bearings and it isn't until after the ackward shipwreck that the movie finds a strong pace. But once Bailian is in the then-Palestine it becomes VERY GOOD. The pacing works. It is slow and meathodical but it is done on purpose. This is no longer just Bailian's journey, which by the way makes a lot more sense now (added scenes and diologue at the beginning explain why he knew how to fight a war and was also something of an archetect for the nobleman and town, just not a blacksmith. It also is more clear about his relationship to the priest that is actually his brother and it is clearer about his wife). The scenes in Jerusalem work now.

I find Bailian much more endearing and a real flawed hero who is just as confused by the dichotemy of the situation and how everyone he truts turns out to have their darker sides and he is lost in a world of corruption and ideals (which is a more accurate view of the Crusades than the much more 2D TC). It feels like we are watching the political world change in this era and seeing it through more than just Bailian's eyes. However, the person who benefits the most from the added scenes is Sybilla. She seemed like a plot device that had nothing to do in the TC after bedding BAilian. Here the subplot about her having a son suffering from lyproacy and her, spoilers,
having to poision and kill her own son to save him her brother's fate; and also doom the city and kingdom by doing so
is very moving and makes her fall from grace at the end make sense.

With that said there are some problems that actually arise from the director's cut. For one it felt like Ridley Scott just threw in everything he liked, including the kitchen sink (I know he deleted five slow scenes that you can see on the fourth disc, but still) including a few moments that are random (like the knight who is picking a flower and gets an arrow in the forehead before terms are discussed) or actually are superflous and actually detract from the narrative. One is where Guy has sex with Sybilla's handmaid which slows the whole sequence down and the other is a sword fight between BAilian and Guy at the end. We know that neither will die and we know that the kingdom is lost. After the final battle (which I think is quite good btw) the audience is exhausted of warfare like Bailian and are ready to come to a conclusion of weary peace (if but only temporarily). This fight just slows this sequence down and feels thrown in because the good guy and bad guy have to fight. It was distracting and stupid.

The other smaller change that the DC added that was actually a mistake imo was using the original takes of Edward Norton's Baldwin IV. Norton was the best part of the TC and the best performance in the movie. While that is still true here we lose something. Norton had a chance to come in after the movie wrapped and rerecord all his diologue in ADR. He did this and I think found the character and his heart much more on the second try. While he is still memorable and sympathetic his lines lack the philosophical strength or saddness as they do in TC. Nowhere is this more apparent than in his first scene. This was done because he has about 1 minute more of screentime in the DC and the voice didn't quite match so instead of just axing that moot 1 minute, Scott decided to use the inferior takes. A big mistake for the character IMO.

But an overall good and much improved (if still flawed) film.
 
I think now that this is out it deserves a good bump.
 
A good film just got a lot better. I watched the TR as a rental because my wife ordered it from Netflix and I thought it was cool. It was like a reunion, Bloom is a hero, Liam is a mentor, Marton is a villain. Now the guy who started this whole director’s cut thing with Blade Runner gets another go round, and thank God, because he’s turned a good movie into an epic.

Critics are always asking for something different and when they get it they hate it. I’ve read a few of the reviews of the theatrical release, either middling or negative, and I could not disagree more with their main attack points on this movie. Balian is not interesting or a great hero, no ******* **** Sherlock! He is a pathetic puppy dog eyed Silent Bob. You know why? His wife and son are dead. Now in most movies you can say to the hero, lets go on an adventure, let’s do a heist or here have a donut, and that’s it, he is a smiling flawless hero again. Not this guy. To me the fact that he is a pathetic loser ****e who only wants forgiveness for his sins makes him an interesting character. He is definitely not a wise old tough guy. He was like Kevin Costner in the Untouchables or Kyle McLachlan in Twin Peaks, or Keanu Reeves in the Matrix trilogy, we are fighting evil with…this guy? Oh boy are we screwed.

The whole film leads to a surrender, Balian surrenders Jerusalem, **** film critics are intelligent! Why aren’t these guys working on cancer research or world hunger? The surrender of Jerusalem actually happened. Its not like he ran out to meet the first rider with a white flag, he rigged up Jerusalem with an impeccable defense and forced Saladin to offer terms ( I love that scene where Balian visits Tiberius and picks up that model of a siege tower, and he turns it over and he has it locked in his mind, what it is and how to beat it, engineering to the rescue). To Balian the women and children’s lives were more important than stones, what an *******. And this viewpoint that trade was more important than religion for Europe turning to the holy land? It was the dark ages, there was a mini ice age, and people were eating children. I do not find it inconceivable that the Middle East was the new world three hundred years before the new world. Trade, religion, politics, these things are all mixed together, hey hey that’s life, that’s what people say, flying high in April, shot down in May…

The battles are not involving, they are pretty but we are not involved. I’ve seen lots of battle scenes but I’ve never seen anything like Balian riding out against Nasir’s advance force to protect Kerak. The horizontal column becomes a vertical column that becomes the wings of a bird. I thought that was awesome and not an Orc, Ogre or inspirational speech in sight, we are riding into certain death, cool let’s go. The dark skinned people of another religion are NOT the bad guys! Deal with it. The Christians are all evil, wrong; Godfrey, King Baldwin IV, the Hospitaller, Tiberius, Balian all good, Guy and Reynard bad, Templars bad. I can accept Templars bad, the Pope fired ‘em all.

I admire the philosophy of the film. I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice. Remember that. You are not what you were born, but what you have it in yourself to be. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee (God will understand us burning the bodies says Balian, how many battles did God win for our people before I came along asks Saladin). Speak the truth, always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless. Do no wrong. That is your oath. Who is a man who does not make the world better? A better world than has ever been seen. A kingdom of conscience. A kingdom of heaven.

In movies either highbrow (Unforgiven) or lowbrow (Stargate) it is killing and violence that brings the hero back to life. For Balian it is taking care of his people, bringing justice and water to Ibelin (and boning the rather married Sybilla, I didn’t say he was a saint). That really spoke to me (the caring part, not boning Sybilla, well maybe a little), any idiot with two cents and a pulse can kill, to take responsibility for your actions, to take care of your lands and your people, that is being a man. Politics isn’t about faith and ideology, its about water, roads, trade, health.

There is this spoken word bit on the song Refuge on the Live at Stubbs album by Matishayu (a Hasidic Jewish rapper from Crown Heights, Brooklyn who says the word Jerusalem A LOT), we don’t know what a leader is, what a king is today. The King was his people, when they felt pain; he felt pain; he was a general on the front lines who would fight and die for his people, he was a warrior, a provider, a poet for his people. Like in Braveheart, noble? What is it to be noble? Taking care of your people, not having a title.

Tiberius and King Baldwin IV (KB4 to his friends) are certainly dignified and regal, but they are playing a political game, not ruling with justice, not ruling from conscience. Saladin promised he would take Jerusalem but it was these guys hemming and hawing that made it possible. Reynald finds the idea of a kingdom of heaven laughable, KB4 and Tiberius snicker when Balian tells them the advice of his father was to be a perfect knight. Without faith and nobility a knight is just a sword for hire, a child’s toy.

Tiberius is like, Oh Reynard if you were not protected by your title, screw his title kill him! KB4 is like, Balian, protect the road, look out for the Muslims and Jews, hey KB4, kill Reynald and Guy, it’ll be a lot easier. As soon as Nasir’s advance force rode on Kerak they should have come to Reynald’s head on a spike in the middle of the road, they should have seen this hideous monster (Brendan Gleeson, excellent as always, is I Went Down ever going to be released on DVD?) reduced to a vulture happy meal. When Saladin comes for Jerusalem Tiberius says, I’m bailin’ Balian, I’m off on the road to Cyprus. Thanks dude, appreciate it. KB4, Sybilla and Tiberius ask Balian to kill Guy! We don’t have to do ****, we have a hero! What they have is a perfect knight, he ain’t gonna go for it, not now, not ever. Sybilla you can’t spare a little ear poison for this arrogant homicidal loser? I thought it was great that when Saladin suggests Nasir should of killed Balian, Nasir says maybe I should have had a different teacher; virtue is not a matter of convenience.

The visuals of this film are truly amazing, from the snow at twilight in the Spain substituting for France village to sprays of blood on the battlefield. Ridley Scott knows what works and what doesn’t with horses, swords, arrows, battles, entrances and monologues. It is like everything he has ever learned is in this movie. It is a visual splendor. The middle eastern parts, are played by actors from the middle east! Wow! That’s a new one! Sybilla is a woman not a girl, I am so sick of all these movies with these little girls pretending to be women.

Did I call Balian a ****e earlier? The director’s cut lets us see that his half brother, the bishop and the local lord are pimpin’ Balian like a two ruble ****e in Minsk. The extra footage of Balian in jail, reminiscing over his wife, of Godfrey having flashbacks to his youth, Godfrey and the Hospitaller eating dinner with the local Lord; pretty much everybody is related in some way, they all expand on the characters and give them so much more depth. Sybilla is a woman not a girl, I am so sick of all these modern movies with these little girls pretending to be women. The subplot of Sybilla’s son totally severed any connection she had to the fair maiden princess stereotype. She has committed the ultimate crime, the ultimate sin, but she did it out of love, a love that cost her Jerusalem. She is so damaged it makes sense her and Balian are together. The final fight with Balian and Guy shows that even at the very end Balian will not sacrifice his principles. I really wanted Balian to split open Guys head like melon, give him a Godfrey special, but I guess that’s virtue. This is a truly epic and challenging film and thank you for the recommendation Obsidian.
 
The inclusion of the dead-end kid storyline was completely pointless and makes the annointing of the Queen needlessly complicated. I guess the rest of the extensions were ok but it's still the same movie.
 
Fettastic said:
The inclusion of the dead-end kid storyline was completely pointless and makes the annointing of the Queen needlessly complicated. I guess the rest of the extensions were ok but it's still the same movie.

dead end kid storyline?
 
I didn't care for the regular version, why would i wanna watch the director's cut?
 
Obsidian: You might want to look into an upcoming Ps3/Xbox360 game called Assassins Creed :up:
I think you're going to like what you see.
 
Btw, how's the action in the director's cut?
Any new shots, or duels?
I don't even remember the TC action, cause I got rid of it a week after I got it (because it was obvious a DC was in the works) :confused:
Anyone?
 
Gammy v.2 said:
Btw, how's the action in the director's cut?
Any new shots, or duels?
I don't even remember the TC action, cause I got rid of it a week after I got it (because it was obvious a DC was in the works) :confused:
Anyone?

well..Reynald de Chatillion get decapitated..and it's shown in the director's cut

that Saracen that fingered Reynald for a raid was cut in half by Reynald...more blood is shown during the forest fight

there's an additional fight scene towards the end between Guy de Lusignan and Balian
 
Obsidian said:
well..Reynald de Chatillion get decapitated..and it's shown in the director's cut

that Saracen that fingered Reynald for a raid was cut in half by Reynald...more blood is shown during the forest fight

there's an additional fight scene towards the end between Guy de Lusignan and Balian

Sweet :up:
A much more comprehensive story, better character development and more action (bloodier too)?
I'm definitely in :up:
 
I finally saw this tonight, It is lavishly produced and grandiose with some wonderful cinematography and sweeping shots, Ridley Scott directs with aplomb and i found the multiple story lines interesting. The set pieces are good but Ive seen better.

I thought Eva Green was superb and Ed Norton gave a good and engaging performance as the King, other support from the likes of Irons and Neeson was also solid.

The films biggest weakness though is Bloom IMO. Now unlike some i don't dislike Orlando, I think he's a decent actor in truth, but this role is to much for him, it's not that his acting is bad, he just doesn't have the presence or gravitas to play a leader of men. His voice lacks intensity or passion in the speeches and he hasn't got the charisma to make me believe that men would follow him into war.

8/10
 
I love this movie. I saw the Theatrical Cut and I loved that, but when I was at Wal-Mart and saw the Director's Cut, I was like what!!!? So I bought it, took it home, and then realized how much the Theatrical Cut was ***** compared to this version, solid 10/10!!
 
113751_large.jpg


The Ultimate Edition (a.k.a. 10th anniversary) of the Blu-Ray is out now and can be found at Wal-Mart for $9.96! It includes both cuts of the film and as far as I know, includes all the DVD extras from the both sets! Hell of a deal if you ask me.

After re-watching this, I have to disagree with the haters. Orlando Bloom did a fantastic job. It was hard for me to believe that it was the same guy who played pretty boy Will Turner in the Pirates trilogy because he played such a different kind of role with a down to Earth character in Balian. An older actor didn't fit the script and the movie's goals.

Edit: You also have Liam Neeson, Eva Green, Michael Sheen, David Thewlis, Jeremy Irons, Brendan Gleeson, and Alexander Siddig in the same movie.

With that said, KOH is definitely top 10 in Edward Norton's performances. He doesn't have that much screentime, but he does an outstanding performance portraying King Baldwin (one of the most important characters in the film) by being able to keep your attention with the tone of his voice and his mannerisms since an iron mask blocks all his facial movements. Even if you can't stand Bloom, its worth seeing the movie just for Norton.
 
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Bloom is good, but he suffers from the same problem that Katie Holmes had in Batman Begins imo. They both are decent actors, but are surrounded by a bunch of great actors. They give good performances, but everyone else is giving great performances, so they stick out and people think that they're worse than they really were. As for the DC, it's great. THIS is the movie that should have been in theatres. What is it with Ridley Scott and having his great movies butchered by the studios for the theatrical versions? He's the poster child for why DC's are necessary in some cases.
 
You also have Liam Neeson, Eva Green, Martin Sheen, David Thewlis, Jeremy Irons, Brendan Gleeson, and Alexander Siddig in the same movie.

Small correction ( a typo error probably ) Martin Sheen wasn't in the movie, it was Michael Sheen.
 
I don't have a blue ray player, but I do have the BR disk so that I can watch the director's cut at a later date. Hope it is worth the wait.
 
in an interview for Exodus, Ridley Scott mentions that he cast Edgerton is Exodus because he really liked him in his audition for Kingdom of Heaven. If it was Edgerton instead of Bloom, what a movie that would have been. And i love the DC, one of my favourite movies already, but Joel would have put it over the top
 

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