Let’s Talk Influences

[Jekecy]

If The Batman script has that much from Tomlin’s script, writers guild regulations would definitely be giving him a credit or at least story credit, not currently uncredited as he is.

There's not much to take from really. If you've read the screenplay, about 80% of it doesn't even involve the Batman-analog. And when it does, it's generally from the perspective of a citizen.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I also think the Silence of the Lambs parallel shot has a solid chance of being coincidental. It's a pretty typical POV shot and there's an incredibly similar one in War for the Planet of the Apes.

 

[Eddie Dean]

When I see a scene of Jeffrey Wright doing a direct address to the camera I'll believe the SOTL stuff.

 

[hellblazer103]

If The Batman script has that much from Tomlin’s script, writers guild regulations would definitely be giving him a credit or at least story credit, not currently uncredited as he is.

So is he basically the Bill Finger of this script ?

 

[BigBatTheory]

I also think the Silence of the Lambs parallel shot has a solid chance of being coincidental. It's a pretty typical POV shot and there's an incredibly similar one in War for the Planet of the Apes.

Absolutely not. The police are aligned in the same spots, showing the exact same emotion, and the entire context of the scene is identical. Did you read the part about the clue? It IS a similar shot to planet of the apes. It is a visual reference to that shot as well. But to deny it a SoTL homage is ridiculous imo

 

[BigBatTheory]

There's not much to take from really. If you've read the screenplay, about 80% of it doesn't even involve the Batman-analog. And when it does, it's generally from the perspective of a citizen.

I have also read it and disagree with this 100%

 

[Eddie Dean]

1. Why does paying homage to Silence of the Lambs mean that the film must adhere to the structure of that film?

2. What is the evidence for something being in the victim's throat, besides that it happens in Silence of the Lambs?

 

[shauner111]

The change in perspective may be the big difference. The themes etc. But the plot and which type of characters that are present in Tomlin’s story could be the key to the Batman script.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Absolutely not. The police are aligned in the same spots, showing the exact same emotion, and the entire context of the scene is identical. Did you read the part about the clue? It IS a similar shot to planet of the apes. It is a visual reference to that shot as well. But to deny it a SoTL homage is ridiculous imo

The context is not identical. The scene in question in Silence of the Lambs takes place in a funeral parlor where one of Buffalo Bill's victims is, not an active crime scene. The key context in the scene, which makes it wildly different, is that the point of view shot used by Demme is to place the audience in the shoes of Clarice and experience the sexism she faces being one of the few female FBI agents.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

It could for sure be a reference because of the placement of the officers but I suspect it's a tiny aesthetic homage that doesn't carry a whole lot of meaning.

Your theory is super cool though, I don't personally agree but it's a very interesting concept.

 

[BigBatTheory]

1. Why does paying homage to Silence of the Lambs mean that the film must adhere to the structure of that film?

2. What is the evidence for something being in the victim's throat, besides that it happens in Silence of the Lambs?

I never said the film was going to adhere to the plot structure of Silence.

I provided solid explanation for it. But I think it needs to be spoiler tagged if we talk about that.

And there is other evidence for it. One thing I haven't included in my summary. There was a leaker on Reddit who posted a few leaks that were COMPLETELY dismissed as made up. But I believed him. Primarily because it included this leak. And this was before I had posted this whole theory. So either he came up with the theory himself based on the clues, which I doubt, because he would have explained the theory to give his leaks more credit, or his leaks have some legitimacy to them.

Spoiler: reddit leaker

 

[Eddie Dean]

Spoiler

Cards often come without gifts, especially... Halloween cards? Wait who sends Halloween cards?

 

[BigBatTheory]

The context is not identical. The scene in question in Silence of the Lambs takes place in a funeral parlor where one of Buffalo Bill's victims is, not an active crime scene. The key context in the scene, which makes it wildly different, is that the point of view shot used by Demme is to place the audience in the shoes of Clarice and experience the sexism she faces being one of the few female FBI agents.

The context is the same in the plot and themes. Both pov shots put the viewer in the perspective of the protagonist who isn't being shown respect by fellow investigators (yes for partially different reasons). Both are being brought on scene by the highest authority in the room. Both are being brought to see the body of a serial killer's victim. Both will end up showing their worth by providing key incite into the killer. Another parallel includes the ominous use of the sound of the camera flash.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I would say Batman showing up at a crime scene with Gordon has happened in roughly... ten thousand Batman comics.

 

[BigBatTheory]

You can go and ahead disregard this theory by saying it's all circumstantial. You aren't wrong. There isn't some smoking gun I have to prove it to you. But I look at all of these parallels and see a connection. It's okay if you don't. Agree to disagree. Time will tell.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I think the Sotl reference is a cool spot, I just can’t follow you on the rest lol

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The SoTL and Seven references are probably first and foremost there as fun easter eggs because this film is clearly heavily influenced by a particular flavour of heightened, 90s serial killer movie. I don't think they're hugely indicative of the actual plot. Once the movie comes out I suspect there will be much clearer comparisons to Chinatown and Klute.

The Dark Knight looks a lot like Heat but watching Heat wouldn't tell you a thing about it.

 

[BatLobster]

The SoTL and Seven references are probably first and foremost there as fun easter eggs because this film is clearly heavily influenced by a particular flavour of heightened, 90s serial killer movie. I don't think they're hugely indicative of the actual plot. Once the movie comes out I suspect there will be much clearer comparisons to Chinatown and Klute.

The Dark Knight looks a lot like Heat but watching Heat wouldn't tell you a thing about it.

Oh yeah, to me the Se7en thing is totally about feel. Not plot. Couldn't even say, cause we don't know the plot anyway.

Just saw this video. Haven't watched it all yet, but I mean...some of the shot comparisons in the beginning. C'mon, there's no way I'm going to believe that Reeves and Fraser aren't using Se7en/Fincher as a reference point on some level.

 

[C Prometheus]

Oh yeah, to me the Se7en thing is totally about feel. Not plot. Couldn't even say, cause we don't know the plot anyway.

Just saw this video. Haven't watched it all yet, but I mean...some of the shot comparisons in the beginning. C'mon, there's no way I'm going to believe that Reeves and Fraser aren't using Se7en/Fincher as a reference point on some level.

I'm sure Se7en and Zodiac both were sources of influences for The Batman, especially considering they were two of the earliest reported sources of inspiration for the film and have repeatedly been name dropped by relatively reliable sources of information on the film (i.e. Jett Ramey). Hell, Riddler's card from the trailer is a very clear nod to the real life card that the Zodiac Killer sent to a news reporter, not to mention the visual similarities between the Riddler's costume and the described outfit that the Zodiac wore.

However I will note that, David Fincher also drew a ton of inspiration from The French Connection and Klute (which Matt Reeves also name dropped as an influence earlier this year, let's not forget) in developing the "look" of Se7en. So it makes sense that if Reeves is drawing influence for The Batman from a number of the same starting points that Fincher did back in the 90's for Se7en, that the two films would bear a number of visual similarities.

Personally I can absolutely see the similarities in cinematography between what we've seen in The Batman and the cinematography in The French Connection and especially Klute. That film really feels like a "Proto-David Fincher" film visually.

On the other hand though, onsidering what all Reeves said at the FanDome panel and what we saw in the teaser, I think it's a safe bet that the influences from Chinatown come more from the narrative and thematic ideas and less so on the visual side of things.

 

[shauner111]

The 90’s thrillers were inspired by the 70’s. It’s as simple as that. Seven is an easy target because it just hits all of those notes in one single piece.

 

[cryptic name]

I also think the Silence of the Lambs parallel shot has a solid chance of being coincidental. It's a pretty typical POV shot and there's an incredibly similar one in War for the Planet of the Apes.

Agreed. I think what this and other shots in Reeves' filmography tell us is that, like Demme, he's a very empathetic filmmaker who wants us to understand and care about the inner lives and emotions of the characters and uses the camera to achieve that.

 

[Matt Parker]

So, I have been re reading Scott Snyder's run on Batman recently and I had an epiphany while reading the Court of Owls story. I really think that they will be the main villains of the film and that Riddler will be a red herring who is supplanted by them. Namely, I think Riddler is killing people connected to the Court and they will eventually reveal themselves in the third act.

I know this theory is not original at all, but I think it's really valid for a few reasons.

1) For one, having a murder mystery where we all know who the culprit is over a year before the movie releases would be a misfire IMO. Yes, we still get to see Batman work it out (and seeing the detective angle get more focus is a major bonus), but I think there must be some third act twist.

2) In the Fan Dome event, Matt Reeves mentioned that this film will be about Bruce realizing that the corruption in Gotham goes way deeper than he realizes and the mystery will force him to explore the city's history (and the history of the Wayne family). This is exactly what the Court of Owls arc in Snyder's run is all about. At the beginning of the story, Bruce mentions how he feels the city is always watching over him, and that he sees himself as restoring it to it's pure, uncorrupted state. But the revelation of the court of owls makes him realize that the City isn't necessarily pure at all and that the wealthy have been conspiring to keep the poor down and to control the city since it began. He also learns that his great grandfather was forced to build bases for the Court before he was killed by them.

Again, this story literally hits on the exact themes that Matt Reeves is talking about and I think it fits.

3) We know Reeves is somewhat influenced by Scott Snyder's run. He's mentioned Zero Year as one of the big influences on the film (Riddler's motivation is similar to that story, a young and brash Batman in a more makeshift suit, slight hints that Bruce and Alfred will clash in the film, etc). Therefore, if he's read Zero Year, he's clearly looking at that whole era of Batman really heavily (rightfully so, as Batman IMO was the only DC character who prospered in the New 52, with all of his main titles firing on all cylinders for at least 2 years).

4) This is more minor, but the card that Riddler leaves Batman does have an Owl on it. Yes, it could be a complete coincidence, but I think it lends some Creedence to the theory (I also know I'm not the first to note this, but I wanted to bring it up).


Basically, when I read Court of Owls last weekend I was having an epiphany that the story basically touches on all of the themes that Reeves teased for the film.

I really hope this is true. Riddler will be an awesome antagonist (and I really hope he's left alive and in Arkham at the end) but we've seen Batman take on crazed killers on film before. The Court of Owls would add such a big dose of nightmare fuel to the movie, and I think it would give the film a real identity.

 

[BigBatTheory]

[QUOTE="
3) We know Reeves is somewhat influenced by Scott Snyder's run. He's mentioned Zero Year as one of the big influences on the film (Riddler's motivation is similar to that story, a young and brash Batman in a more makeshift suit, slight hints that Bruce and Alfred will clash in the film, etc). Therefore, if he's read Zero Year, he's clearly looking at that whole era of Batman really heavily (rightfully so, as Batman IMO was the only DC character who prospered in the New 52, with all of his main titles firing on all cylinders for at least 2 years).
[/QUOTE]

Do you have a source for this? I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I just don't remember him citing Zero Year at all. I hope you are right, because there are some other things from this run I'd like to see as well.

 

[C Prometheus]

As far as I'm aware, Matt himself has never openly said that Zero Year is an influence nor cited it as a personal favorite of his.

However Mario from Revenge of the Fans did previously report in Summer 2018 that he'd heard it was one of the comics that was being compared to the film, alongside Year One and Dark Victory.

 

[Matt Parker]

[QUOTE="
3) We know Reeves is somewhat influenced by Scott Snyder's run. He's mentioned Zero Year as one of the big influences on the film (Riddler's motivation is similar to that story, a young and brash Batman in a more makeshift suit, slight hints that Bruce and Alfred will clash in the film, etc). Therefore, if he's read Zero Year, he's clearly looking at that whole era of Batman really heavily (rightfully so, as Batman IMO was the only DC character who prospered in the New 52, with all of his main titles firing on all cylinders for at least 2 years).

Do you have a source for this? I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I just don't remember him citing Zero Year at all. I hope you are right, because there are some other things from this run I'd like to see as well.[/QUOTE]

I don't have a source. I remember reading somewhere that Zero Year was mentioned as an influence, and I think what we've seen supports that, but maybe I am mistaken. I apologize for talking out of my a$$ .