The Dark Knight Lifting the Bat-Bells: Bale's Physique

[ShadowBoxing]

Also, we’re not talking about footballers here, footballers do no not need to hold their weight up with anything other than their two feet

Except for the fact that as a Football player you're getting hit frequently by people twice your size (because there is always someone bigger) and having to hold yourself up, while maintaining control of the ball. That takes incredible poise, strength, balance and agility

they do not have to worry about defying gravity with sheer energy.

No, one has to worry about "defying gravity" because that's impossible. Baseball players create an illusion of doing so, because in mid jump they extend their bodies to their fullest extension. See this is one of those cues that says "I have no direct experience in this". Ninja's couldn't defy squit, Neither can martial artists. They can use existing physics to their advantage but they can't defy them.

I would also assume you've never watched a game where a running back or receiver is forced to make a play in the air. It happens quite frequently: a dive tackle, a catch in mid jump WHILE being hit, a last minute play for the endzone. Football players are as often called to think off their feet as on their feet. It was the same for me in Rugby. You are NEVER on stable ground for very long in either of those sports.

Footballers sacrifice agility for brute force, it’s as simple as that.

No. it's. not. If Football players did that they'd never get the ball to the other end of the field. They need to be able to move, quickly, and avoid any oncoming traffic.

(If you think footballers are as agile as free runners you’re severely overestimating how fast and how well a footballer could move in a non traditional situation)

Football players ALWAYS are moving in a non traditional situation. What's traditional about a football game, exactly. You know who move in traditional situations: runners. (There is no such thing as a "free runner").

 

[Mandalore464]

He was referring to the "free-running" sport, some kind of parkour. What those guys do is truly awesome, but it's a sport that actually takes more b#lls than agility. Any guy who's been keeping his body fit can do what they do if he trains. And it's generalizing to say that free-runners are not big.

Of course none of them -that I know of- will be as big as a bodybuilder, but you're all always using the extremes as general examples. Batman doesn't have to be bodybuilder-big to be big enough. He doesn't have to be as agile as a gymnast who'll win gold medals at the olympic games to be agile enough. He doesn't have to be as fast as Asafa Powell or Maurice Greene to be fast enough.

All those guys mostly train in only one area BECAUSE they train for competition and cannot afford to not be at their peaks in their ONE discipline. Sprinters train in sprint. They don't do bodybuilding at all. Bodybuilders train in gaining muscular mass. They don't train in sprint. Why? Well because maybe if a sprinter was 360 lbs of muscles he wouldn't be able to run at the peak of his ability. But would he still leave you 30 metres behind him in a race? Yeah, that's possible.

You have to remember that Batman is not aiming at any gold medal or trophies or anything sport-related. He just wants to be as strong, agile, fast, and endurant as one can possibly be. It's a compromise between all those things he's aiming at.

So stop saying Batman would be a bodybuilder, or a sprinter, or a free-runner. No. None. He'd be a mix of them all. Not as big as a bodybuilder, but bigger than the average person. Not as agile as a gold-medallist gymnast, but more agile than the average person. Not as fast as a 100 m WR holder, but faster than the average person.

And such athletes do exist in real life. I'm thinking about martial artists, rugby players, football players... Jonah Lomu -former NZ rugby player- is 6' 5", and at his peak was 260 lbs and could run the 100 m in 10.89 seconds. I think most people run it in 13 seconds or above. Who said Batman had to be able to run it in 9 seconds, when he can outrun you in 11?

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

"if Batman took part in the Olympics he'd win six medals" - Neal Adams

I think you guys think just too much into it. There is no man who can do all those things Batman does, so to discuss how he should look is a little bit non-sensical.

 

[Mandalore464]

"if Batman took part in the Olympics he'd win six medals" - Neal Adams

Yeah and there are plenty other disciplines with medals to be won at the olympics than gymnastics and track and field, including martial arts for example.

Plus, he's probably talking about the comics Batman who, as you say, is doing things that no one could do in real life. But the fact is, we're actually talking here about what a real Batman would be and do.

I for one am in no way having a debate over the comics version who can lift a 600 lbs barbell with one arm -I may be exaggerating a tad, but you get the idea- I thought the original topic was Bale's shape in TDK and what he should look like to be a perfect, "real" Batman.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I for one am in no way having a debate over the comics version who can lift a 600 lbs barbell with one arm -I may be exaggerating a tad, but you get the idea- I thought the original topic was Bale's shape in TDK and what he should look like to be a perfect, "real" Batman.

Heh, not quite. The comics once showed him one arm extending (arguably a harder exercise) 600 lbs.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

...And such athletes do exist in real life. I'm thinking about martial artists, rugby players, football players... Jonah Lomu -former NZ rugby player- is 6' 5", and at his peak was 260 lbs and could run the 100 m in 10.89 seconds. I think most people run it in 13 seconds or above. Who said Batman had to be able to run it in 9 seconds, when he can outrun you in 11?

The last point was well made. In fact it highlights something I never understood. Why does Batman need to be this acrobatic warrior? Especially in Nolanverse? It serves no real purpose in a fight to do backflips and be moving around the room like a monkey on crack. Sure this looks great in comics and makes cartoons fun to watch, but it's not really practical. Neither is kicking someone in mid air, or doing wildly dramatic fighting. Most fights stay in close, and the way they fight is anything but graceful and dramatic; it's more brutal and to the point.

 

[byersbo]

Its a given Bale is older this time around but the lesser weight is too obvious and he aged fast. It will be interesting to compare his looks heading forward to Batman 3.

 

[DeathRaven]

Reading through this thread (well more like skimming) and its actually quite funny to read people complain about the size of bale....so I guess if your going to any sort of threat you have to be huge?

Because if Im right, any one with the right set of skills plus with the know how of martail arts is a down right threat...

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Because if Im right, any one with the right set of skills plus with the know how of martail arts is a down right threat...

To whom, exactly? I mean martial arts is fun and all, but it's not that "threatening" in real life situations, actually. Most people who excell in street fighting simply have good sense and reaction time, not necessarily any formal training.

Martial artists have the benefit of training under coaches, in often controlled environments with people who respect and understand the art as much as they do. However in most real life situations when you duke it out with one guy, soon you're duking it out with five of his friends, one of whom punks you with a beer bottle and it's lights out.

A man with a gun, now there is a legitimate threat. I feel threatened by a dude with a gun. Truth is, no matter how good Batman got at martial arts, bodybuilding, sprinting or parkour, in the real world he'd just be some a$$hole in a costume begging to get shot, gang beaten or stabbed repeatedly. In comics villains have the quality of being a supstitious and cowardly lot, in the real world not so much.

 

[sibbo]

The last point was well made. In fact it highlights something I never understood. Why does Batman need to be this acrobatic warrior? Especially in Nolanverse? It serves no real purpose in a fight to do backflips and be moving around the room like a monkey on crack. Sure this looks great in comics and makes cartoons fun to watch, but it's not really practical. Neither is kicking someone in mid air, or doing wildly dramatic fighting. Most fights stay in close, and the way they fight is anything but graceful and dramatic; it's more brutal and to the point.

So a batman that has more mass and doesn’t have the ability to anything acrobatic?

What about on his nightly escapades as he goes from roof to roof, it would be useful to be able to be confident with his acrobatic ability to actually reach the next building, use grapple lines, land properly if something goes wrong. That’s where the gymnastics comes in.

Also, Parkour specifically is about getting from point a to point b in the quickest, most efficient manner possible, especially in an urban environment. Batman uses rooftops too much to neglect acrobatics.

(The flips themselves that are done in freerunning and gymnastics aren’t useful to batman but the skills that are require to do what they do are very useful.)

And that jeet kun do video isn’t about flashy moves. (It’s also the style that the tdk crews fighting style is originally based on (Keysi Fighting Method).)

Except for the fact that as a Football player you're getting hit frequently by people twice your size (because there is always someone bigger) and having to hold yourself up, while maintaining control of the ball. That takes incredible poise, strength, balance and agility

And that has everything to do with brute strength and nothing to do with agility. You stay up because your body can take it. (not because you have a great capability of movement)
Football is definitely sacrificing agility for brute strength, if the bulky armour isn’t hint enough, I don’t know what is.

No, one has to worry about "defying gravity" because that's impossible. Baseball players create an illusion of doing so, because in mid jump they extend their bodies to their fullest extension. See this is one of those cues that says "I have no direct experience in this". Ninja's couldn't defy squit, Neither can martial artists. They can use existing physics to their advantage but they can't defy them.

Oh ffs, yeah, cause I was being so literal with that statement I meant, defying gravity – travelling up higher than normally possible, by energy – as in kinetic energy
I do not mean literal flying or whatever the bad place you’re thinking I’m talking about –I’ll be more careful about how I say things next time (also I’ve done competitive figure-skating so I do know about using speed & weight placement to jump higher so no I’m not ignorant about all this)

Basically from what I have seen the jumping capabilities & agility of freerunners > footballers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEeqHj3Nj2c
check out the move at around 0:23, 0:29 stuff like that.

Football players ALWAYS are moving in a non traditional situation. What's traditional about a football game, exactly. You know who move in traditional situations: runners. (There is no such thing as a "free runner").

The area of play is always a field with grass, the same size, flat. If that’s non traditional I’d hate to think what this is:
http://www.citynoise.org/upload/2248.jpg
cause that’s more the kind of environment batman would have to deal with –

btw.

Free running is a physical art, in which participants (free runners) use the urban and rural areas to performance movements through its structures focused on freedom and beauty. It incorporates efficient movements from parkour, adds aesthetic vaults and other acrobatics, such as tricking and street stunts, creating an athletic and aesthetically pleasing way of moving. It is commonly practiced at gymnasiums and in urban areas that are cluttered with obstacles.

(wiki is your friend)

/wall'o'text

 

[sibbo]

To whom, exactly? I mean martial arts is fun and all, but it's not that "threatening" in real life situations, actually. Most people who excell in street fighting simply have good sense and reaction time, not necessarily any formal training.

Which is of course why police, military personnel etc. are trained in it

Also, I just remembered about this bit of news:

Freerunning, the youth craze which involves daredevil leaps from buildings and acrobatic stunts from lamp-posts, has emerged as the Royal Marines' latest weapon of urban warfare.

A squad of professional freerunners going by the names EZ, Livewire, Sticky and Spidey has begun training marine commandos in gravity-defying moves such as the "kong vault", "running cat" and "crane" in an effort to improve troops' street-to-street fighting ability.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/12/military.uknews4

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Which is of course why police, military personnel etc. are trained in it

Police and military personnel's hand to hand training is nothing phenomenal, in fact frequently (especially in law enforcement) the extent of the hand to hand training is entirely dependent on the individual. Some choose to follow it, some don't.

I should also add that both those you mentioned carry sidearms at all times, and are far more extensively training in that than any sort of martial arts. They also travel in groups, lessening the chance that any one of them can be overcome in a physical encounter.

Truth is American law enforcement and military rely very little on martial arts, if at all. I've had the pleasure of sitting in on and training in some of their sessions and it's all basic drills and procedure most white belts would know by the end of their first month.

 

[Mandalore464]

Basically from what I have seen the jumping capabilities & agility of freerunners > footballers.

Why d'you keep making such comparisons? Do footballers train in free-running? No. In any given sport, the best practicioners of said-sport will be the ones who train in this sport.

I could tell you that the swimming capabilities of Ian Thorpe surpass my own by far. Does that mean I can't swim? No. Thorpe trains to be the best swimmer there is on the planet. So of course, he sacrifices a lot of other physical developments to be competitive in swimming, against other people who also do nothing but swim. But could he also develop everything else (Sprinting speed, muscle mass, gymnastics abilities, martial arts abilities etc etc) and still remain ONE of the best swimmers around? YES.

The fact that he does nothing else than swimming-related exercises makes him the best. But he could do plenty other things and not be the best anymore, but still be in the top 50 swimmers on the planet. Now, no-one ever said Batman would be the best at everything on the planet. He wouldn't be the best at free-running: professional, competitive free-runners would be better than him, since they only train in this. Thus, a pro free-runner's agility and jumping abilities would surpass that of Batman. But the whole point is, Batman would still be in, say, the top 100 free-runners in the world. And also the Top 100 martial artists in the world. And also the Top 100 gymnasts in the world.

That's what makes him exceptional. He doesn't train to be the best at everything, but he's very good at everything. He trains to be AS GOOD AS one can possibly be in everything, without having to sacrifice any activity or physical development to be better in another.

Free-runners ENTIRELY rely on agility and jumping capabilities, so of course those qualities are more developed for them than those of a footballer. The point is, does that mean a footballer CANNOT develop that kind of physical qualities to a very high level, IF he trained for it? And I say no. Don't ask a footballer to equal or surpass the agility of a professional free-runner, he doesn't NEED it. But can a footballer develop his agility to a very high level IF he wants to? YES, 100% yes.

Point 2 : Let's also not forget that Batman can rely on his gadgets (ropes, grappling hooks, etc) to increase his agility and jumping capabilities, while free-runners only use their bodies.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

So a batman that has more mass and doesn’t have the ability to anything acrobatic?

What about on his nightly escapades as he goes from roof to roof, it would be useful to be able to be confident with his acrobatic ability to actually reach the next building, use grapple lines, land properly if something goes wrong. That’s where the gymnastics comes in.

Not really, remember this Batman using gliders in his cape to successfully navigate from building to building. Furthermore it doesn't take any particular acrobatic skill to zip-line or grapple from one building to another.

Also parkour is done in places where the buildings are built close together. What happens when Batman wants to cross a street, jump a normal alleyway? How is parkour going to help him then? It won't. Furthermore, I think as Begins showed, jumping from rooftop to rooftop is a really inefficient way to fight crime. Oh, I know Batman hangs out on rooftops then swoops down on unsuspecting criminals; but in reality based world's it doesn't work that way. He'd never just idly see a crime from a rooftop setting, most crime happens behind closed doors and happens far to quickly for his parkour skill to get him from the rooftop to the point where it occured. Quite frankly Batman would be more likely to find crime walking through a bad neighbor on the sidewalk.

Furthermore, most cities aren't planned out well enough for parkour to take him any more than half a block or so, and at that rate he might as well hope in his car and drive there.

Also, Parkour specifically is about getting from point a to point b in the quickest, most efficient manner possible, especially in an urban environment. Batman uses rooftops too much to neglect acrobatics.

Actually, that's one of the most ridiculous I've ever read. First off, for efficiency, that has to be the most inefficient means of travel. Try walking, or running. As for quickest, nope. Free runners aren't travelling to any particular location, they hardly get up and go to work that way. I've seen parkour guys run up buildings, take very scenic routes and do things that in fact distract from whatever point a/point b destination they have in their heads...in fact I'd wager to guess the guys don't have a point a or point b period.

Parkour is about showing off, it's more of an exercise to show how much balls you got: to jump from one surface to the next. Although it's nothing a seasoned athlete couldn't accomplish. Could I jump from one rooftop to a close adjacent rooftop: absolutely, the strength in my legs alone could get me across, but I won't because it's just a mindless waste of my time that has a great potential for injury if I fail. I respect the guys who get out there and participate in parkour, but it's not practical in any situation.

And that has everything to do with brute strength and nothing to do with agility. You stay up because your body can take it.

Wow, what a dumb, misguided statement. I played Rugby for three years, I don't care how strong you are, when two guys hit you and you can keep running that says something about your balance, not your strength. We had a variety of guys on the team and some of our biggest would fall and drop the ball if they were hit, some of our smallest could fight through entire groups of players. It all had to do with how agile you were, your reaction speed and how balanced you were. Akido, ironically teaches the principle of one point. This has nothing to do with physical strength, but rather a core balance central to all athletics, especially football.

Oh ffs, yeah, cause I was being so literal with that statement I meant, defying gravity – travelling up higher than normally possible, by energy – as in kinetic energy

That comes from leg strength, something football players have in abundance.

Basically from what I have seen the jumping capabilities & agility of freerunners > footballers.

You narrowly define "agility" as the ability to do backflips it seems. Football players frequently have insane verticle leaps, in fact some are on par with pro-Basketball players (of course the position which they play will determine the likelyhood of this). Agility is simply the ability to change your bodies position in a quick, fluid motion. Football players have this in abundance. Parkour isn't really a sport where you have to avoid things on short notice. They know where they are and they know where they are jumping to. If I jump from one platform to the next, that takes leg strength and the ability to land properly, and that's about it. In Football players are frequently required to make split second decisions about where and when to move. That's agility, and it takes far more agility than simply jumping from one point to another.

 

[tekcopedis]

He was referring to the "free-running" sport, some kind of parkour. What those guys do is truly awesome, but it's a sport that actually takes more b#lls than agility. Any guy who's been keeping his body fit can do what they do if he trains. And it's generalizing to say that free-runners are not big.

Of course none of them -that I know of- will be as big as a bodybuilder, but you're all always using the extremes as general examples. Batman doesn't have to be bodybuilder-big to be big enough. He doesn't have to be as agile as a gymnast who'll win gold medals at the olympic games to be agile enough. He doesn't have to be as fast as Asafa Powell or Maurice Greene to be fast enough.

All those guys mostly train in only one area BECAUSE they train for competition and cannot afford to not be at their peaks in their ONE discipline. Sprinters train in sprint. They don't do bodybuilding at all. Bodybuilders train in gaining muscular mass. They don't train in sprint. Why? Well because maybe if a sprinter was 360 lbs of muscles he wouldn't be able to run at the peak of his ability. But would he still leave you 30 metres behind him in a race? Yeah, that's possible.

You have to remember that Batman is not aiming at any gold medal or trophies or anything sport-related. He just wants to be as strong, agile, fast, and endurant as one can possibly be. It's a compromise between all those things he's aiming at.

So stop saying Batman would be a bodybuilder, or a sprinter, or a free-runner. No. None. He'd be a mix of them all. Not as big as a bodybuilder, but bigger than the average person. Not as agile as a gold-medallist gymnast, but more agile than the average person. Not as fast as a 100 m WR holder, but faster than the average person.

And such athletes do exist in real life. I'm thinking about martial artists, rugby players, football players... Jonah Lomu -former NZ rugby player- is 6' 5", and at his peak was 260 lbs and could run the 100 m in 10.89 seconds. I think most people run it in 13 seconds or above. Who said Batman had to be able to run it in 9 seconds, when he can outrun you in 11?

Duh, hence why I was saying Ninja.

Batman is a normal man. He gets shot, hurt, bruised and broken. Technically he is a cop in a bat suit.

While Batman is a physical force, what makes Batman himself is like the very scary and real criminals he faces, his tactics.

I mean, what cops are going to hang you on a rope outside of a building and tell you "Write a confession or I will cut it".

That is why Batman is scary, same as a Ninja. You have no idea were he is going to show up or what he is going to do and more often than not he is going to kick your @$$...so you better be on your best behavior.

Oh and to the moron who said "Criminals in real life are not superstitious." As someone who grew up in a piss poor neighborhood and have studied crime, I can say, you could not be further from the truth.

P.S. I know what real Ninjas are like, they are not like what they are in the movies. Duh.

P.S.S. If you think some how that assassin's cannot harm you or kill you with there hands then you are dead wrong.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Oh and to the moron who said "Criminals in real life are not superstitious." As someone who grew up in a piss poor neighborhood and have studied crime, I can say, you could not be further from the truth.

I think you missed the point entirely. In Batman criminals are afraid of a guy in a bat-costume, because they are "superstitious and cowardly lot" (BTW that's a reference to a phrase from Bob Kane's first Batman story) and the symbol of a bat is enough to get them to wet their pants. However in the real world Batman would just be some a$$hole in a costume who they'd shoot, on sight of him without any real hesitation. Bat ears and a gravely voice are not enough to strike fear in the hearts of men, certainly not enough fear to prevent them from shooting your ash.

Furthermore I've studied crime as well, and if you really did you'd know that crime in the real world is nothing like crime in the comic's world. It's one thing to be jumpy about cops coming around the corner, it's another to be scared while committing the crime, but it's completely bat-f***-insane if you believe that anyone committing a crime has any problem with, or wouldn't just shoot someone like Batman. You're welcome however to put on a costume and test that theory for me.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Duh, hence why I was saying Ninja.
...P.S. I know what real Ninjas are like, they are not like what they are in the movies. Duh.

These statements indicate otherwise. As I said, there is no evidence to support the claim that Ninja's have any strength, speed or ability anywhere remotely on par with any athlete today. Most Ninja's practiced what would be called "yoga" today for their training. Since there are no real Ninja's around anymore, it's a hard comparison to make between them and other athletes, rest assured though the Ninja's you saw in Batman Begins are nothing like real Ninja's.

Ninja's probably didn't have great agility, or great strength, their speed probably wasn't off the charts either. Remember, back when Abraham Lincoln was President they considered his strength superior to ten men, as he could amaze crowds with his ability to hold an axe with his arm outstretched with it shaking. Their really is no reason for Batman to take up their arts. True, the disguise aspect and the disappearing worked well on screen, and that's what they seemed to focus on anyways, but as for athletic ability, he couldn't get that from Ninja training. Batman would have to be proficient with weights, probably bleecher run and sprint, and learn his way around a heavy bag.

If Batman went to real Ninja school it'd probably be a lot of breathing exercises, a lot of philosophy and becoming one with one's body and mind, and there'd be a ton of yoga. The fighting is only a very small aspect of what they did and how they lived.

 

[zman]

These statements indicate otherwise. As I said, there is no evidence to support the claim that Ninja's have any strength, speed or ability anywhere remotely on par with any athlete today. Most Ninja's practiced what would be called "yoga" today for their training. Since there are no real Ninja's around anymore, it's a hard comparison to make between them and other athletes, rest assured though the Ninja's you saw in Batman Begins are nothing like real Ninja's.

Ninja's probably didn't have great agility, or great strength, their speed probably wasn't off the charts either. Remember, back when Abraham Lincoln was President they considered his strength superior to ten men, as he could amaze crowds with his ability to hold an axe with his arm outstretched with it shaking. Their really is no reason for Batman to take up their arts. True, the disguise aspect and the disappearing worked well on screen, and that's what they seemed to focus on anyways, but as for athletic ability, he couldn't get that from Ninja training. Batman would have to be proficient with weights, probably bleecher run and sprint, and learn his way around a heavy bag.

If Batman went to real Ninja school it'd probably be a lot of breathing exercises, a lot of philosophy and becoming one with one's body and mind, and there'd be a ton of yoga. The fighting is only a very small aspect of what they did and how they lived.

I rarely post here (or anywhere) but I just had to respond to that. I've been practicing ninjutsu for a few years, and although I won't pretend we're learning magic stuff or anything unnatural, I can assure you the techniques we practice (and we try to stay as faithfull as possible to the original scrolls and how it was done back then) has nothing to do with yoga. if someone takes his training seriously (I like to think I do), his streight, speed, agility (among other things) will improve vastly.

To me (and my instructor), its VERY fitting that Batman trained with ninjas, considering his weapons, his way of approaching a fight. Its sad that his techniques in BB don't have much to do with ninjutsu, but its understandable. If it did, and I'm not braggign here, the fights would be very short. A guy approaches, Batman brakes his arm, moves on. Not very exciting, but I wouldn't mind seing it like that, its often how he reacts in the comics anyways...

 

[zman]

«If Batman went to real Ninja school it'd probably be a lot of breathing exercises, a lot of philosophy and becoming one with one's body and mind, and there'd be a ton of yoga. The fighting is only a very small aspect of what they did and how they lived.»

wow I just read that...no disrespect Shadowboxing, but thats a far cry from the truth...ninjutsu is an art of war, used and tested on the battle field. To put it simply, yoga doesn't hurt, but ninjutsu hurts like a mother********!!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

wow I just read that...no disrespect Shadowboxing, but thats a far cry from the truth...ninjutsu is an art of war, used and tested on the battle field. To put it simply, yoga doesn't hurt, but ninjutsu hurts like a mother********!!

First of all, that's not true. Ninjutsu is not a fighting art, it's a combination of many, many arts, and it's a term that's been bastardized by the west. Ninjutsu at it's heart is about a mind body connection, done through the practice of yoga. It extends to survival techniques, such as being able to lower one's blood pressure, heart rate and even appear in a state of near death. It includes but is not limited to: the art of disguise, the art of hiding and retreat, the artisenry, cooking, cleaning, thinking and yes, a part devoted to the fighting and self defense arts. However Ninja's rarely engaged in fighting (it's true), in fact they tried to avoid physical confrontation at all costs.

History tends to confuse, or blur the Ninja with lawless mercenaries and assassins, and while their were some ninja's who fell into such lives they were not regarded very highly amongst the ranks of true ninja.

As for yoga not hurting. Perhaps you don't understand it's purpose. The stretching was used to provide an elastic quality to the muscles, making the body limber and quick. Their fighting techniques, in and of themselves, are fairly simple to understand, but to effectively do any of what the Ninja's did the training in Yoga came first and foremost. What Bale went through in Begins was hardly close to real Ninja training, and much closer to some American style bootcamp.

There is no such fighting style called ninjutsu by the way, the fighting style used by Ninja is called Taijutsu or "un armed combat" and Kenjutsu (Bojutsu) "armed combat".

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I rarely post here (or anywhere) but I just had to respond to that. I've been practicing ninjutsu for a few years, and although I won't pretend we're learning magic stuff or anything unnatural, I can assure you the techniques we practice (and we try to stay as faithfull as possible to the original scrolls and how it was done back then) has nothing to do with yoga. if someone takes his training seriously (I like to think I do), his streight, speed, agility (among other things) will improve vastly.

If you're simply doing the fighting art, you're practicing Taijutsu, probably under the name Ninjutsu. You can only learn true Ninjutsu, from what I understand from a very select few, only one of whom lives in the states.

Taijutsu is a fighting art, and it's a good one, I won't say it isn't. It won't save you from a guy with a gun (but what will), but it's certainly one worth learning. While you say you practice Taijutsu, most places claiming to teach Ninjutsu teach some form of Karate and call it Ninjutsu because of how popularized Ninja's have become. But Yoga, breathing, mind body philosophy, learning to survive in harsh conditions (as most Ninja's had too), learning the right speech, motive and action, learning to manipulate events behind the scenes, learning psychology, those are all aspects of Ninjutsu.

Yes, you're absolutely right it pointing out that Begins ultilized the explosive powders, reappearing/disappearing arts, however the totality of Ninjutsu really has no practical purpose to Batman. Most of what can be learned of use to him from that art can be learned elsewhere. I'm not saying it's a bad art form, but a profoundly misrepresented one.

 

[zman]

Now that you've clarified your view of ninjutsu (and, yes, taijutsu), I can see that we basically agree.So what do you think of the fighting style choosen for BB? I thought it was effective but lacked refinement, like arm locks, throws and what not.

 

[sibbo]

Mandalore,
Yes batman is “good at everything” as far as the comics go, but when considering what would be best for a live action you have to cut down to the basics.

And for what batman does on the street he doesn’t actually need to lift 600lbs, but he does need to have
Accuracy with projectile weapons,
Skill with close range weapons and weapon-less martial arts,
Skills in freerunning as he is in an urban environment, constant use of rooftops.
Use of grapple lines etc.

That’s why I counted in parkour, marital arts and gymnastics, figured they covered what a realistic batman would need to do most of what is done in the comics. And since none of them required him to actually be large, and since mass is just more weight to carry around I figured that more compact would be the best shape for bale to be in for the movies. (The three use a very similar type of body, so it’s not like one aspect has to be compromised for the sake of the others.)

I’m not saying footballers should be as agile as free runners, and recognize that the use and type of their bodies are completely different. But people keep mentioning footballers etc and saying they are agile when they are not, in comparison. So I was just illustrating the point, that’s why I keep comparing the two.

It’s true that a footballer could do some free running but a footballers abilities aren’t the most useful for the basic skills above. So what’s the point of using the sport, and it’s sportsmen as a base for batman? All the skills necessary can be covered without extra mass.

Having that body would not be the best advantage he could have for those skills. That’s the point I was trying to get across since Shadow was saying batman should be large and that he also would have a genetic advantage.
It would have to be one or the other.

At the end of the day though I suppose, I’m just saying bale doesn’t need to be larger.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Now that you've clarified your view of ninjutsu (and, yes, taijutsu), I can see that we basically agree.So what do you think of the fighting style choosen for BB? I thought it was effective but lacked refinement, like arm locks, throws and what not.

Really, as you said, fighting isn't dramatic. It's walking up and breaking someone's arm, and it might not be pretty. With that in mind, I think comic books notions that one has to go abroad to study martial arts is a little overplayed.

I think in a movie though, you gotta go for broke and do something dramatic, even if it lacks practicality. I thought the fighting style they chose was interesting, especially with it's use of elbows. However, I dunno, I've always liked my movie fighting to a little over the top, because being a former boxer I've seen how un-glamourous fighting is and I think movies ought to spice it up.

 

[sibbo]

Shadow,
Yes, in our world Batman would be a cop or something
But since we’re talking about a movie that has to be grounded in reality while still using elements from the comic we have to consider what he does in the comics, and what abilities would best support his actions – leading to parkour, gymnastics & martial arts supporting better than football.

And traveling from A to B? like how to get down a staircase, run down each flight or….
That’s were the idea of efficiency and speed come in.

As for using gliders/grapple/cape in this case, they do have their place as you said with the larger gaps, but parkour would be useful on the smaller gaps for landing etc (It’s not like parkour is limited to jumping between roofs either, for the uneven ground of rooftops it’s very useful.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEdHe3S4ZFQ (first half)
And well, if anything, the british military think it’s useful (and I count their opinion higher than yours )

Techniques for jumping from roof to roof and dropping from a height would be used to improve physical training drills to condition troops for urban warfare, he said. For example, the marines spotted that the freerunners' method of dropping from a height, rolling on to their shoulder, back and leg and running on in one smooth movement maintains running speed and could reduce the chances of commandos being shot.

Another improvement could come from landing from jumps with one foot. Marines have traditionally landed on both feet to reduce the risk of sprains on rough ground, but freerunning teaches the use of one foot on more stable urban surfaces to maintain momentum.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/12/military.uknews4

Wow, what a dumb, misguided statement. I played Rugby for three years, I don't care how strong you are, when two guys hit you and you can keep running that says something about your balance, not your strength. We had a variety of guys on the team and some of our biggest would fall and drop the ball if they were hit, some of our smallest could fight through entire groups of players. It all had to do with how agile you were, your reaction speed and how balanced you were. Akido, ironically teaches the principle of one point. This has nothing to do with physical strength, but rather a core balance central to all athletics, especially football.

Aikido’s dodging and using your opponents motion against them to disrupt balance…
But alright yeah, I get your point with that. Balance is essential, still I’d bet there would be a great deal of strength involved in staying up while being hit….

That comes from leg strength, something football players have in abundance.

It’s not all about leg strength, someone weaker can get higher by speed and moving right because of kinetics.
Speed into jump + Technique/Motion + strength of kick off/push off - weight = height/length of jump

You narrowly define "agility" as the ability to do backflips it seems. Football players frequently have insane verticle leaps, in fact some are on par with pro-Basketball players (of course the position which they play will determine the likelyhood of this). Agility is simply the ability to change your bodies position in a quick, fluid motion. Football players have this in abundance. Parkour isn't really a sport where you have to avoid things on short notice. They know where they are and they know where they are jumping to. If I jump from one platform to the next, that takes leg strength and the ability to land properly, and that's about it. In Football players are frequently required to make split second decisions about where and when to move. That's agility, and it takes far more agility than simply jumping from one point to another.

I agree with that, don’t see how footballers are really that abundant in it though. (& being able to flip well is a pretty good indicator of agility…)

Powerlifters < Bodybuilders<…..<Footballers (Gridiron) <Rugby <Baseball <Football (Soccer) <Basketball<...<Gymnast <Parkour/Freerunning ...<Monkeys

Just for the fun of it:
Parkour almost solely relies on the ability to change your bodies position in a quick, fluid motion.