Love Story in Batman '89

[The Guard]

I always thought that Alfred couldn't stand seeing Bruce in denial about Vicki and he let her in. The line from BR "Who let Vicki Vale into the Batcave" reinforces my deduction that Alfred just went ahead and made the decision.

I have a very hard time believing that. Did Alfred decide "enough is enough"? Yes, but I think she figured it out. She plays it subtly. Knowing she "shouldn't" be there, but realizing that it's the right thing to do.

She found out on her own. All the clues are there, building throughout the movie. Her piecing together his past, her moments with Batman, and perhaps most tellingly, her reaction to Knox's last line before she meets Bruce in the cave points strongly toward it. "What do you suppose this does to a kid"?

Before that, she doesn't understand why he's been acting so strange. She goes instantly to him when he realizes who he is and why he was acting so differently.

He's just playing with her in the beginning of BATMAN, he's not actually confused about who Bruce Wayne is. He's taken by her, and he wants to watch her for a moment without her being out of her element.

It's just about fifteen times more interesting a relationship than the one he "had" with Rachel in BATMAN BEGINS.

 

[Gianakin_]

You make valid points, most of which I've considered before, but I can only see them leaning towards the "she supsected" theory, not the "she found out" one. Her behavior in the cave, once Alfred lets her in, can show either that she already knew or that she's at a loss for words for finding out.
However, you're right, it could be that, I just don't see it there. I believe the clues are vague enough to leave the matter open to interpretation.

As for the deal with Rachel, as I've said many times, I like it very much. It's a relationship that's not based on love, but on familiarity due to childhood. These kind of relationships are ones that very much appeal to me.
Sure, they could've put in a couple of extra scenes with them as children, but the whole growing up and changing into something different than their former childhood selves, the loss of innocence is a concept that I always find intriguing.

 

[GoogleMe94]

That's how people fall in love in the real world, too. They don't have to have known them all of their life to fall in love, I don't get why you seem to think this is the only way it works. People are first visually attracted to the person, enough that they want to pursue them and find out what kind of person they are. Believe it or not, finding someone visually stunning before anything else does not mean all they want is sex. It's how we ALL start falling in love.

 

[The Guard]

You make valid points, most of which I've considered before, but I can only see them leaning towards the "she supsected" theory, not the "she found out" one.

Then what's the point of all the moments leading up to her figuring it out? What's the point of each little "step"? The hell of it?

 

[Gianakin_]

Then what's the point of all the moments leading up to her figuring it out? What's the point of each little "step"? The hell of it?

That's the thing, I don't see how they clearly lead up to her figuring out. All the hints are open to interpretation: Her investigating, Bruce trying to tell her, Alfred constantly making remarks.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

That's the thing, I don't see how they clearly lead up to her figuring out. All the hints are open to interpretation: Her investigating, Bruce trying to tell her, Alfred constantly making remarks.

Well, what else could Vicki stomping out of the newpaper office with Knox yelling "Don't get personal" mean?

 

[Reflectionist]

Well, what else could Vicki stomping out of the newpaper office with Knox yelling "Don't get personal" mean?

Meaning she's a woman and has sympathy for a man who's obviously shut away from society because he's having trouble dealing with his parents death, and that's amplified because she loves him. It has nothing to do with her thinking he's Batman. I don't think, at least.

She's just concerned. Except she's also obsessed with Bruce. Like I said earlier in the thread, this realization about his parents puts her in the prime position to know about Batman. Thus she goes over to Wayne Manor, starts spilling on Alfred, asking about him, and doing the whole concerned woman thing, and she can't make sense of it. He goes, "Yeah, let me show you something, it'll make sense then."

And he brings her down into the batcave. Hence the confused look on her face like, "wtf, Bruce is Batman? Seriously?"

That analysis right there is completely within the parameters of the evidence and the characters as well.

Go and read my long post on the previous page. I think I explained it well, but it was at the bottom of the page so no one read it.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Meaning she's a woman and has sympathy for a man who's obviously shut away from society because he's having trouble dealing with his parents death, and that's amplified because she loves him. It has nothing to do with her thinking he's Batman. I don't think, at least.

Watch the scene with Vicki in the Batmobile... you can tell that when she has a good chance to see Batman's exposed mouth and chin, she's seeing something familiar.

She had a hunch, she followed it by personally investigating. But she probably wasn't intelligent enough to confirm it until Alfred helped her out.

She's just concerned. Except she's also obsessed with Bruce. Like I said earlier in the thread, this realization about his parents puts her in the prime position to know about Batman. Thus she goes over to Wayne Manor, starts spilling on Alfred, asking about him, and doing the whole concerned woman thing, and she can't make sense of it. He goes, "Yeah, let me show you something, it'll make sense then."

No. Before Knox uncovers the newspaper article of the Wayne's murder, she has already stalked Bruce Wayne. It's not concern... not initially at least.

She primarily wanted to find out why he had lied about leaving for a meeting.

And he brings her down into the batcave. Hence the confused look on her face like, "wtf, Bruce is Batman? Seriously?"

That analysis right there is completely within the parameters of the evidence and the characters as well.

It comes across like you watched B89 with the scenes mis-matched.

 

[Reflectionist]

Watch the scene with Vicki in the Batmobile... you can tell that when she has a good chance to see Batman's exposed mouth and chin, she's seeing something familiar.

She had a hunch, she followed it by personally investigating. But she probably wasn't intelligent enough to confirm it until Alfred helped her out.

Yes, that's a valid point to make. She could just be in an "Omg batman!111!!!" mode too, and that's how she would express it. If I were in her situation, in a new city, where there may or may not be a crime fighting vigialante dressed as a bat, where everything's kind of strange, a little different...... if I found myself suddenly in Batman's own car, sitting right next to him, I'd be compelled to stare and try to figure him out. I mean, come on, it's not everyday a legend that may or may not exist according to everyone else picks YOU to ride in his car.

No. Before Knox uncovers the newspaper article of the Wayne's murder, she has already stalked Bruce Wayne. It's not concern... not initially at least.

She primarily wanted to find out why he had lied about leaving for a meeting.

You're right. I agree with you there. I had forgotten about this. She's suddenly infatuated with him, yes. She's obsessed with him, yes. He's a mystery. She's intrigued. Women are like that sometimes. When she finds out about his parent's, she goes over the edge as far as her obsession, and now she's really really really dying to understand him. She wants them to be together, but at the same time, she doesn't want whatever is bothering him to come between them. She can detect he's secluded and dark and just not very social to begin with.....

It comes across like you watched B89 with the scenes mis-matched.

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you rephrase this sentence?

EDIT----- THIS Batmobile Scene? I don't know if your description of Vale is correct here, man. Lol.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Yes, that's a valid point to make. She could just be in an "Omg batman!111!!!" mode too, and that's how she would express it. If I were in her situation, in a new city, where there may or may not be a crime fighting vigialante dressed as a bat, where everything's kind of strange, a little different...... if I found myself suddenly in Batman's own car, sitting right next to him, I'd be compelled to stare and try to figure him out. I mean, come on, it's not everyday a legend that may or may not exist according to everyone else picks YOU to ride in his car.

Women's emotions are all over the place. It wasn't any one feeling, but the point was, she recognized him in the back of her mind.

And I have a hot ride of my own. Don't need Bats as my chauffeur.

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you rephrase this sentence?

Before now you were talking like Vickie knew his past before the first date or right after the first date.

EDIT----- THIS Batmobile Scene? I don't know if your description of Vale is correct here, man. Lol.

Why don't you get it? She was remembering that Wayne had that song blaring in the mansion during the party.

 

[Reflectionist]

Women's emotions are all over the place. It wasn't any one feeling, but the point was, she recognized him in the back of her mind.

And I have a hot ride of my own. Don't need Bats as my chauffeur.

Well, maybe she does recognize him, but can't place it. So it's a moot point as to wether she think's he's Bruce or not.

Before now you were talking like Vickie knew his past before the first date or right after the first date.

I was? I didn't mean to. I know she didn't know about his past until after she realized that Bruce had never left town.

Why don't you get it? She was remembering that Wayne had that song blaring in the mansion during the party.

That video would've been absolutely perfect if the scene continued, and Batman walked up to his computer, pushed a button, and that song came over the 'speakers.' Cut to awkward silence between Vicki and Batman, then to Batman's cape motion.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Well, maybe she does recognize him, but can't place it. So it's a moot point as to wether she think's he's Bruce or not.

You were starting to make Vicki out to be a nurturing fairy godmother or something. It was a romance, also a game of clues and hunches. Her actions weren't just because she was worried for him.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

She doesn't look confused upon entering the Batcave. Her look is much more "Yup, here he is."



And considering the fact that in the novelization and earlier drafts of the script, the confrontation is in Bruce's study instead of the Batcave, I think it's obvious that it's a case of her deducing the identity. The fact that in the novelization and script drafts, she speaks so boldly and obviously about his other self, it's kind of obvious. And if it was in an earlier draft of the script, that was Hamm's original intentions for her character. It was streamlined through re-writes by just having her in the Batcave so much of that dialogue could be trimmed.

I mean, in basic film theory, even just the scene of her walking off from Knox, combined with his disappearance from her apartment is the 2 + 2 she needed. And that which we needed to know she'd added up things.

 

[Reflectionist]

She doesn't look confused upon entering the Batcave. Her look is much more "Yup, here he is."



And considering the fact that in the novelization and earlier drafts of the script, the confrontation is in Bruce's study instead of the Batcave, I think it's obvious that it's a case of her deducing the identity. The fact that in the novelization and script drafts, she speaks so boldly and obviously about his other self, it's kind of obvious. And if it was in an earlier draft of the script, that was Hamm's original intentions for her character. It was streamlined through re-writes by just having her in the Batcave so much of that dialogue could be trimmed.

I mean, in basic film theory, even just the scene of her walking off from Knox, combined with his disappearance from her apartment is the 2 + 2 she needed. And that which we needed to know she'd added up things.

Oh. Well, Okay. Maybe she did figure it out herself. If not confusion on her face as she walks into the 'cave, it would be a sense of awkwardness. "I'm not supposed to be here, and I don't know how this is going to go."

I'm finding it really hard to believe that she would've figured it out on her own. But now that I'm remembering all these examples where Bruce does something very Batman-like in front of her, or Batman does somethind very Bruce Wayne-like in front of her... it makes sense.

But I guess I was just playing up to the whole idea that even in movies, the character's can't always figure out what's painfully obvious to the audience, angle.

 

[Gianakin_]

Well, DLB, those clues you mentioned do indeed tip the balance towards her knowing. Thanks.