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"Make America Great Again"the F'dup Chapters in American History (The Trump Years) - Part 3

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I am going to spend the rest of my life saying this, but there is little psychological equivalence between the Brexit and Trump phenomena. I support the former and loathe the latter, and many share that position. You should consider that there were and are separate factions opposing the EU in Britain. Two of them even fought it out for the official designation to lead the Leave campaign: VoteLeave (broadly speaking Conservatives and some from the old socialist left of the Labour Party whose agenda was national self determination), and Grassroots Out (largely drawn from Ukip and opposed to immigration).

To put the record straight: support for leaving the EU has increased since June 23rd.

Equivalence? No. Congruence? Yes. In the dichotomous mess of a global society we've become those who voted leave are more likely to by sympathetic to Trump than they are a globalist who opposes national sovereignty, no?
 
Remember, if you're advocating that violence is permissible this whole discussion becomes about nothing other than power, and who has the ability to exert theirs over others. If Trump and Bannon were to get their little 4th Reich going, the violence you support will come back at you.

outside of legislative action, like the Voting Rights or the Civil Rights Act, the only thing Trump and his cretins understand IS FORCE

how people do not get this is beyond me

you can not teach compassion or teach people to be better, you either understand it, or you don't
 
unlike you

That seems a little presumptuous.

Im ready to die for a better world Ill never see

Yes, that's a cute line and sounds good in a YA book-to-movie adaptation but your radical rhetoric doesn't actually do anything to get you to achieving this "better world". In fact all you do is contribute to the vocal minorities on either side flinging **** at one another instead of engaging with reasonable (majority) moderates who have the same goals you do.

I noticed a significant increase in childish melodrama on these boards around the time Trump won't the election.
 
you want to support a white nationalist agenda?

I will happily punch you in the face

don't think women should have the right to choose?

I will happily punch you in the face

think our LGBTQ citizens don't deserve the same rights as everyone else?

I will happily punch you in the face

outside of legislative action, like the Voting Rights or the Civil Rights Act, the only thing Trump and his cretins understand IS FORCE

how people do not get this is beyond me

you can not teach compassion or teach people to be better, you either understand it, or you don't

Are you sure you get it?

Last time I checked punching people in the face doesn't tend to lead to them becoming compassionate, nor is it a compassionate thing to do. Wouldn't your energy be better spent on things other than assuming the US is in some kind of massive war already?

You keep talking on this forum like the majority of the US population is racist and shares Trump/Bannon's beliefs. If that's the case why are you still there, surely you haven't lost your mind, surely you'd realize converting over 50% of the population (who are clearly mindless bigoted fanatics) to becoming compassionate is a fool's errand?
 
no one that supports Trump has the same goals I do

That's strange, you both seem pretty intent on using violence to achieve your ends, you guys may have more in common than you think?

You're referring to like a fifth or a quarter of the population. What about everyone else?
 
Are you sure you get it?

Last time I checked punching people in the face doesn't tend to lead to them becoming compassionate, nor is it a compassionate thing to do. Wouldn't your energy be better spent on things other than assuming the US is in some kind of massive war already?

You keep talking on this forum like the majority of the US population is racist and shares Trump/Bannon's beliefs. If that's the case why are you still there, surely you haven't lost your mind, surely you'd realize converting over 50% of the population (who are clearly mindless bigoted fanatics) to becoming compassionate is a fool's errand?

its not a majority, but its closer to 50 than people are willing to admit

You have a white nationalist strategist, an AG that was deemed too racist for a federal judgeship, various cabinet appointees who are unqualified, rich a-holes and supporters that lap up their propaganda because they promise to "Make America Great Again"

I don't want anyone on his side to be convinced to be "better people", I want them to realize they lost, crawl back to their hovels, and watch the world pass them by
 
Equivalence? No. Congruence? Yes. In the dichotomous mess of a global society we've become those who voted leave are more likely to by sympathetic to Trump than they are a globalist who opposes national sovereignty, no?

Yes, but I think the bigger issue that overlaps this is the degree to which subjective loyalties attract to different power blocks to which Britain is allied. Most people who voted in the EU referendum (I believe) voted from instinct.

The left tends to be very pro EU and anti-American for two reasons. Firstly, because the EU is in favour of expanding, deepening, centralizing and strengthening the state and supra-state against the individual. Secondly, because the EU has long been styled (largely under French influence) as a force that would grow to oppose the US internationally and therefore build a more multi-polar world in which free markets and democracy could be challenged.

British conservatives tend to be pro-American (and by extension pro-Canadian, Australian, Kiwi etc) and anti-EU for precisely the obverse reasons, and also because, being conservatives, history has a larger influence on them.

The result, I think, is that the British centre-right has a tendency to see Trump being attacked by people who it really doesn't like and who it instinctively opposes, and feels the need to urge some caution. But that is not the same as supporting the man, who is widely reviled.
 
we've hit a point where the lines are clearly drawn

you are on one side...or the other

from Reuters

The rancor has not dissipated as it has in the aftermath of other recent contentious U.S. elections. A Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll shows it has worsened, suggesting a widening of the gulf between Republicans and Democrats and a hardening of ideological positions that sociologists and political scientists say increases distrust in government and will make political compromise more difficult.

...

Sixteen percent said they have stopped talking to a family member or friend because of the election—up marginally from 15 percent. That edged higher, to 22 percent, among those who voted for Democrat Hillary Clinton. Overall, 13 percent of respondents said they had ended a relationship with a family member or close friend over the election, compared to 12 percent in October.
 
its not a majority, but its closer to 50 than people are willing to admit

Right. Have you got proof for that statement? Or is this like implicit bias, a bogeyman invented to make everyone unreasonably scared about something that likely doesn't exist?

You have a white nationalist strategist, an AG that was deemed too racist for a federal judgeship, various cabinet appointees who are unqualified, rich a-holes and supporters that lap up their propaganda because they promise to "Make America Great Again"

I don't want anyone on his side to be convinced to be "better people", I want them to realize they lost, crawl back to their hovels, and watch the world pass them by

Are you one of those alt-facts types? They didn't lose - they won. They're not going to crawl back into their hovels, they've got all three branches and they're going to try and do whatever the **** they want. Are you deluded?

If you want this so called better world you're striving for, stop engaging with the fascists whose minds you'll never change and start talking to likeminded people who are also striving for this better world and impress on them how inescapably ****ing vital the midterms are so that the "good guys" can start making up some ground against the crazies like Bannon. Just a thought.
 
Yes, but I think the bigger issue that overlaps this is the degree to which subjective loyalties attract to different power blocks to which Britain is allied. Most people who voted in the EU referendum (I believe) voted from instinct.

The left tends to be very pro EU and anti-American for two reasons. Firstly, because the EU is in favour of expanding, deepening, centralizing and strengthening the state and supra-state against the individual. Secondly, because the EU has long been styled (largely under French influence) as a force that would grow to oppose the US internationally and therefore build a more multi-polar world in which free markets and democracy could be challenged.

British conservatives tend to be pro-American (and by extension pro-Canadian, Australian, Kiwi etc) and anti-EU for precisely the obverse reasons, and also because, being conservatives, history has a larger influence on them.

The result, I think, is that the British centre-right has a tendency to see Trump being attacked by people who it really doesn't like and who it instinctively opposes, and feels the need to urge some caution. But that is not the same as supporting the man, who is widely reviled.

Sure, but in a world where people like operating according to false dichotomies I'd hazard those in the center-right would (by a smidgen, and cautiously) follow Trump's movements with interest rather than outright denounce him.
 
2018 will be a reckoning (in the voting booth)

but the opposition did win, some people will survive to see them crumble, some won't
 
we've hit a point where the lines are clearly drawn

you are on one side...or the other

from Reuters

You know what would help? If people would soften those hardened beliefs a little bit and find common ground. As much as it appeases you (clearly) very tender sensibilities to picture every Trump voter as a reincarnated gestapo agent it might be a worthwhile exercises to figure out why they voted for the fool.

Pro Hint: It's not because they're closeted Klan members.

Understanding why people do things is a very helpful skill in life, and rarely is it for the completely evil reasons you seem to be so zealous about.

2018 will be a reckoning (in the voting booth)

but the opposition did win, some people will survive to see them crumble, some won't

You really need to stop posting like this is the final sequence in a Transformers movie...:huh:
 
You know what would help? If people would soften those hardened beliefs a little bit and find common ground. As much as it appeases you (clearly) very tender sensibilities to picture every Trump voter as a reincarnated gestapo agent it might be a worthwhile exercises to figure out why they voted for the fool.

Pro Hint: It's not because they're closeted Klan members.

Understanding why people do things is a very helpful skill in life, and rarely is it for the completely evil reasons you seem to be so zealous about.

if they voted for him

- they believed his BS about "bringing jobs back"
- they are a racist, sexist, xenophobic s***theel
- if they aren't, they are ok with racist, sexist, and xenophobic s**theel behavior
 
Im ready to die for a better world Ill never see

Personally, I'd argue that there are many issues that I'm willing to die for. But nothing I'm willing to kill for. Dying is inevitable, killing is not. And they aren't going to make a killer or a violent man out of me. Screw that.


outside of legislative action, like the Voting Rights or the Civil Rights Act, the only thing Trump and his cretins understand IS FORCE

how people do not get this is beyond me


I think you're mistaking non-violent resistance as somehow weaker or more passive than violent resistance. Especially for this day and age, I think that it's important to understand this difference.
I'm not a supporter of nonviolent resistance because it's cute. I'm a supporter, because it works. Fighting back only gives your opponent permission to do the same. And friend, we can't beat the US Government / police forces. If we're going into a fight, I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight. Our only working path is to shun the people of power and gather the masses against them.
If throwing bricks at windows worked, I'd be all for it. It doesn't though. It just adds to their resentment and allies sentiment against you. But just because we can't raise our hands against them, that doesn't mean that we don't resist. We have human shields at their establishments. We block their calls. We protest at every level of government that we can, at every point that we can. We make it purposely hard as consistently as possible.
And you know what will happen? First, they'll ignore us. Then they'll laugh it off. Then they'll fight. And when they fight, we've got to make it hard on them. We've got to push them to a point where they over react.... we do sit ins, we lock ourselves to fences, we turn our backs to officials, we smoke pot in the streets in mass, we stop eating, we stop buying...and some of us could die as soldiers for the cause.. because we won't raise a hand, but we won't stop resisting either.
And after we've done enough of this, we'll have eventually gathered respect from the opposing side. They'll realize that we can't be pushed away, and, through our persistence, their only choices will either be to fight us and be hated or agree with us and be loved.. and we'll have them.

You've got to do this stuff the right way. You're outrage is understandable, and yeah.. this country still has a problem with race.. but the battle isn't over flesh, it's over hearts and minds. We NEED to persuade these folks. We can't beat them into submission.
 
there is no persuading, they believe minorities are "less than", believe LGBTQ folks are "less than", believe women are "less than"

they believe it as sure as they believe that pure work of fiction they leave in the drawer of hotel rooms

I don't want to love them, I don't want to persuade them

I want them routed
 
if they voted for him

- they believed his BS about "bringing jobs back"
- they are a racist, sexist, xenophobic s***theel
- if they aren't, they are ok with racist, sexist, and xenophobic s**theel behavior

Perfect, I'm glad it's so simple, thank you for clearing that up for me.
 
there is no persuading, they believe minorities are "less than", believe LGBTQ folks are "less than", believe women are "less than"

they believe it as sure as they believe that pure work of fiction they leave in the drawer of hotel rooms

I don't want to love them, I don't want to persuade them

I want them routed

... and what, like gassed or something?
 
leading people off a cliff is not brave.
 
ICE is out there today - in various states - knocking on doors, questioning people going to church

anyone who supports this does not deserve "love"
 
So, again, dude... it's cute to be all outraged online... but like, what are you suggesting? That we head from church to church slitting throats?

If the goal is to win. Then that takes their help. And that means finding ground with them as human beings.

If the goal is to be a stubborn jerk who can say "I was right!" all the way to last place, then I guess genocide is an option.
 
if there are other "logical" reasons, Id love to hear them

Logical? No. Understandable? Yes. But you clearly don't view these people as human, so I doubt any reason no matter how pertinent to that individual would sway you into trying to consider something from someone else's point of view.

All Trump voters simply need to be "routed" for their decision to vote for Trump. As you were :up:
 
So, again, dude... it's cute to be all outraged online... but like, what are you suggesting? That we head from church to church slitting throats?

If the goal is to win. Then that takes their help. And that means finding ground with them as human beings.

If the goal is to be a stubborn jerk who can say "I was right!" all the way to last place, then I guess genocide is an option.

This person gets it.
 
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