Marvel 1602

DACrowe

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So, I didn't see a thread for this and have decided to make my own. This is a thread meant to discuss this intriguing concept and, IMO, wonderful daydream by Neil Gaiman.

Oddly, I had barely even heard of this book until recently. Despite my love for Marvel and my more recent, but years-long admiration of Gaiman, I missed this book in 2003 as I was drifting away from comics at the time. On a whim, I recently came across the book and read it in a day. It is hands down one of the most clever and insightful broad views of the Marvel Universe I have seen.

In an 8-issue run, Gaiman and Kubert encapsulated why Marvel works and why we love it by completely transplanting it in a literally foreign world--early 17th century Europe. By doing this, Gaiman was able to highlight why these characters, even when stripped of their powers and costumes (for the most part) are so timeless and enduring. What Lee, Kirby and Ditko created has stood the test of time because it was a broad dysfunctional oddball universe designed on classic ideas and notions of storytelling while keeping the characters human, opinionated and differentiated by agenda. What shocked me is how he roots even more their Americanism and uniquely 20th century roots in the past by having them go to the New World and kickstart nation building over 150 years early. One wonders what Javier/Xavier's US would look like today.

It also pulls from history. Seeing Sir Nicholas Fury as Queen Elizabeth I's spymaster reimagining of Sir Walter Raleigh was a delight. James I's fears and prejudices leading to him persecuting mutants or Witchbreed was great. Magneto's entangling with the Vatican and Inquisition was clever. But most of all, Gaiman rewriting the history of the Lost Colony and making Virginia Dare a major character was a stroke of genius. She literally becomes the symbol of burgeoning Americanism and hope for the future. Also, the irony of Peter, sans powers ,ending up with the girl who represents America is just a fun little ironic twist to run on.

I had a few problems with the book (the needless inclusion of dinosaurs in North America and a bit of too-on-the-nose criticism of Bush that while I agree with broadly has already dated the book) but those are minor quibbles in a book that without relying much in the way of action or superheroics, did a superb job of recreating the sense of, adventure and intrigue of 1960s Marvel when a universe was in its infancy.

I reached the end and saw that several sequels were written to this book, though sadly none by Gaiman. The reviews seem mixed. I'm most intrigued by the birth of a nation on Roanoke, but I hear much of the direct sequels involve an over emphasis on dinosaurs, Spidey comics formula (he starts working at a printing press in a struggling colony run by a blowhard....really?) and killing off Virginia Dare which immediately turns me off on the whole project. The Fantastic Four sequel about their adventures after returning to London and Victor von Doom's reemergence sounds more promising. Is it worth the read or is it just a cash-in?

Anyway, I loved this original story and it reminded me why I liked Marvel stories in the first place.
 
I guess nobody but me cares. :(

I come in here really excited and am like let's talk about Marvel 1602 because I just read it and it was cool and it was awesome and no one wanted to talk to me.......<cries>

Oh well. :awesome:

I still loved the crap out of this book.
 
I actually just finished this book myself and was amazed by it! You've done a great job of articulating what's so great about it in your post. I got it from my Library but I think I might buy it next payday, it was that good. I've been reading a lot of Neil Gaiman stuff lately and was wondering why he hadn't done more Marvel work. I looked into it and saw 1602, which I had heard of but didn't know was from Gaiman.

I think this may be my favorite alternate universe story. It was so well conceived. None of the characters felt forced in or too different from the originals. It was just the right amount of reinterpretation. I really enjoyed the way Daredevil, Fury, and X-men were done. It was all great. To be honest, at first I was thinking Rojhaz was supposed to be Thor. Then I said it out loud to myself and realized Rojaz was Rogers! Lol.

I'm disappointed Gaiman didn't write the sequels. I would have liked to see what he would have done with Peter gaining his powers and what became of Banner. Maybe I'll check them out sometime.

So yeah, you're not the only one who loved it! :cwink:
 
I never read it. I'd rather read something more modern by Gaiman, not him re-imagining the Marvel universe. He could have did killer things with Dr. Strange, Thor or Spider-Man. Instead he took the easy way out in my opinion. There's no challenge writing something that's not going to have a rippling effect in continuity.
 
Well, he did write an Eternals mini.

Also, everything doesn't HAVE to be in continuity. Especially if continuity is so easily erased and rebooted due to time travel, reality wall punches, and Faustian deals. :o

A good story is a good story.
 
Well, it was his first major Marvel work ever, all I'm saying is he could have attempted to make more of a splash.
 
I actually just finished this book myself and was amazed by it! You've done a great job of articulating what's so great about it in your post. I got it from my Library but I think I might buy it next payday, it was that good. I've been reading a lot of Neil Gaiman stuff lately and was wondering why he hadn't done more Marvel work. I looked into it and saw 1602, which I had heard of but didn't know was from Gaiman.

I think this may be my favorite alternate universe story. It was so well conceived. None of the characters felt forced in or too different from the originals. It was just the right amount of reinterpretation. I really enjoyed the way Daredevil, Fury, and X-men were done. It was all great. To be honest, at first I was thinking Rojhaz was supposed to be Thor. Then I said it out loud to myself and realized Rojaz was Rogers! Lol.

I'm disappointed Gaiman didn't write the sequels. I would have liked to see what he would have done with Peter gaining his powers and what became of Banner. Maybe I'll check them out sometime.

So yeah, you're not the only one who loved it! :cwink:

Someone else loved it? High five for the best crossover ever! :awesome: ;)

BTW, the Peter David Fantastik sequel was pretty entertaining (if cookie cutter in how it wasted the cool concept of Shakespeare going on an adventure with the Fab Four), but the Spidey/New World sequels are a waste of time. They ruin the fun of seeing these characters in the New World and just boringly regurgitate classic Spidey stories. Also, killing off Virginia Dare and undercutting the symbolism of what she represents in Gaiman's story kind of ruined Spider-Man 1602, in my opinion.

I never read it. I'd rather read something more modern by Gaiman, not him re-imagining the Marvel universe. He could have did killer things with Dr. Strange, Thor or Spider-Man. Instead he took the easy way out in my opinion. There's no challenge writing something that's not going to have a rippling effect in continuity.

But he doesn't need to be constrained by continuity. He's such a dreamer, he wanted to do something bigger than an 8-issue run on The Avengers, Amazing Spidey, etc. He wanted to do a big picture meditation on the universe.

And by doing this he was also able to return to the crackerjack, by-the-seat-of-you-pants styled adventuring of the Stan Lee-era 1960s. He created an AU in the past, got to reimagine early 17th century history in a way as wacky as Tarantino's IB, and was free to do what he wanted. There are so many limitations of what you can or cannot do in modern comics, which become formulaic. Also, he does use Dr. Strange in 1602 brilliantly. He also does things that he'd never be allowed to do in 616 with the character. To give you a hint, if you know your history he pulls a Sir Walter Raleigh. But that is not the end of his story after that.
 
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But he did nothing at Marvel since except the Eternals mini. I find it hard to believe those were the only stories he wanted to tell with Marvel characters.....

Then again I guess his comic career was winding down at that point. I think he's writing mostly novels and for TV now. Gaiman and Marvel were like 2 ships passing in the night I suppose.
 
But he did nothing at Marvel since except the Eternals mini. I find it hard to believe those were the only stories he wanted to tell with Marvel characters.....

Then again I guess his comic career was winding down at that point. I think he's writing mostly novels and for TV now. Gaiman and Marvel were like 2 ships passing in the night I suppose.

Gaiman never really wrote superhero stories. In a very broad and technical sense you could argue Sandman was a superhero, but he really never touched that idea of the character. Other than an equally abstract dream-like Batman story (The Death of Batman, which is also great), he never really did a DC superhero story.

He seems to enjoy the genre, but he is not a practitioner of it. He's never going to really write a monthly commercial book, because that's just not his style or where his interests lie. If you ever read 1602, there's an Afterward where he talks about how Joe Quesada chased him for three years to write a Marvel tale and he finally consented. Then 9/11 happened and he decided he wanted to do a story that captured the fun escapism of the '60s Marvel books he grew up with....but also had no skyscrapers, airplanes or an instance of "might makes right" (albeit there is one scene in the book where you could argue he did break that last rule, but it is a superhero story). So, in his feverish imagination, that is where this story came from.

I'd be thunderstruck if Gaiman ever did a 12-issue run on any Top 20 superhero. Like ever.
 
I don't know....I think he'd do an awesome Superman or Captain Marvel.
 
He did stories on Poison Ivy, Riddler and Swamp Thing. MiracleMan was a super-hero....he also worked on Hellblazer. If he did stuff like Hellblazer and Sandman, why not attempt Dr. Strange? He could have used the same tact from 1602 (no planes/buildings/ect) on a Dr. Strange book. It could have given that character a shot in the arm popularity and sales wise for a time with potential lasting effects. That's just my thoughts.

I'd worry about him on a character like Superman or Captain America. I'd fear he would end up being too preachy.
 
Maybe Marvel couldn't afford him anymore? He quit doing some Sandman thing DC wanted when they couldn't work out a deal for residuals for it.
 
I'm still hoping for a possible conclusion to Marvel/Miracleman.
(Also: collected or reprints of his and Alan Moore's run.)
I see marvel has been putting out 'Primers'.
I also loved 1602. (didnt care too much for the subsequent stories, tho)
 
Marvel has done SQUAT with Miracleman as far as new stories go. What a waste of money if you weren't going to launch a new title under the MAX imprint or something.
 
He did stories on Poison Ivy, Riddler and Swamp Thing. MiracleMan was a super-hero....he also worked on Hellblazer. If he did stuff like Hellblazer and Sandman, why not attempt Dr. Strange? He could have used the same tact from 1602 (no planes/buildings/ect) on a Dr. Strange book. It could have given that character a shot in the arm popularity and sales wise for a time with potential lasting effects. That's just my thoughts.

I'd worry about him on a character like Superman or Captain America. I'd fear he would end up being too preachy.

Considering 1602 ended with Dr. Strange having his head cut off at the Tower of London and his wife taking his head off the Bar and traveling to the New World with it so he could still communicate from the dead with (Sir) Nicholas Fury and Reed Richards....I just don't think Marvel would have been game for that being the new continuity.
 
So you're saying Gaiman is unable to write an in continuity book without killing the title character.....?:huh:
 
I don't think he'd want to. Those sort of limitations don't really appeal to him which is why he has never done a straight run on a superhero book and most likely never will.
 
I don't know. I think if they had offered him Ultimate Doctor Strange (Back when Ultimate meant something) or something he'd have had pretty much free reign to do as he pleased.
 

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