Homecoming Marvel & Sony's Spider-Man (2017) General Discussion - - - - Part 25

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[Ghostcrow13]

Fidgeting could be even more of a sign to be honest, nervous that Dylan was going to slip up

 

[Webhead2006]

Geesh go to bed last night and missed all the fun debates.

First talion like I said last night. No way after all these yrs with marvel trying to get spidey back that they would off him in one appearance. When all the stories we have heard first from the press release about continuing peter stories and second wanting a young peter who can grow over a course of films. It will be peter and marvel likely going to groom him to be the new face of the mcu. Since we all know rdj time is limited with how much longer he will be stark. So with spidey being top guy in comics they likely want that for mcu. Then after some time with rdj gone we get in his replacement. As we already have had Kevin say countless times the mcu will he like bond series always continuing but the faces change.

Same with whole miles and peter deal. We don't need miles right now. We yet to get peter history with mcu and his times as a hero and avengers and all that. And marvel is playing the long game here. They have plenty to do with peter first. And then down the road they can do miles miguel or any other of the alt spideys. Like I said they are likely looking for a 6 to 9 deal with this new spidey.

So he likely be in 3 solo films 3 team films and then maybe the netflix stuff or other things. We don't need to jump right to miles. Let this peter grow for awhile. Then if actor decides not to re up his contract play with miles for a bit and then bring back peter with a new actor in time.

As for Tobey and Andrew debate for me both had good traits as there peter and spidey and bad traits. Tobey had the shy nerdy peter well. But his spidey wasn't the witty cocky type as in tools and comics. Vs andrew I thought had that aspect right in his spidey and like certain aspects of his peter.

And I never sseen much hate on andrew for the films. Heck most fans and critics always praise that his and Emma stuff was the best parts of there films. It's just the writing and studio man handling that derailed things.

For me for the mcu take I want peter to first be the shy nerdy loner type that is sweet kind and a big genius type. With then once he has his powers and the mask he let's out the cocky witty playful banter and type he is in comics. That is something I don't worry much on with marvel now having a creative hand in things. I am sure they will get us our fun loving witty playful spidey and are shy nerdy genius peter.

 

[dony2012]

I just looked apparently the manager didn't actually say anything to her, probably cos the camera was on, but she was' fidgeting around and was using annoyed gestures'

Fidgeting could be even more of a sign to be honest, nervous that Dylan was going to slip up

Yeah, I'll say you're right on both.

 

[Dark Raven]

What exactly are the "Jewish traits" you're speaking of though?

Well most of it I already detailed in my post, which is in the spoiler tag below for the sake of this new thread:

Spoiler

This. Anyone who has some slight "weakness" or "oddity", Spider-Man will make fun of it. These might be perfectly acceptable things about them, but could still be psychological weaknesses that affect their self-esteem and strike a chord with their emotional core. And that's what Spider-Man does as one of his fighting tactics: he gets under your skin and gets you all riled up about something either you are already insecure about, or if you haven't been before, he will prey on that aspect and actually turn it into a weakness.

Spider-Man, in that sense, is just like these kids you find at school who will target anything about other pupils just to find something to mock them.

And why does he do that?

a) Partly because that is Peter's personality and he just sees the funny side of life. He's like the comedy routine you see at the beginning of chat shows like Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon, David Letterman etc where they poked fun of celebrities or other people in the news. It's not that they are malicious. They just find these things funny and play up the droll things in life with humorous observations and comments.

b) Because Spider-Man uses his humour as a weapon against his enemies to dissipate their focus and distract them so that they're acting out of emotions instead of thinking clearly with their heads. Once he's ruffled his enemies' feathers, they begin to make mistakes, or their primary goal becomes just getting their own back on Spider-Man instead of thinking strategically like they might have been before.

Spider-Man without humour in his arsenal is like a Batman without his detective skills. It can be done in the movies, but it is woefully incomplete and lacking.


c) Peter Parker's Jewishness: where life's trials lead to quipping not quitting

I'm pretty convinced, just by Peter's personality he's displayed countless times in the comics, that he's actually a Jewish New Yorker (and he was written and created by a Jewish New Yorker like Stan Lee). Peter not only frequently displays this Jewish self-deprecating humour, but also, when he is down on his luck and oppressed, isn't so whiny and a cry baby. Instead he, as is consistent with typical Jewish humour, makes light of his situation and will almost laugh at his difficult circumstances - if not laughing out loud, then at least having almost a gallows humour approach.

I like this passage on Jewish humour I found on an entry in Wikipedia. This describes Peter and Spider-Man's personality perfectly:

Hillel Halkin in his essay about Jewish humour traces some roots of the Jewish self-deprecating humour to the medieval influence of Arabic traditions on the Hebrew literature by quoting a witticism from Yehuda Alharizi's Tahkemoni.

A more recent one is an egalitarian tradition among the Jewish communities of Eastern Europe in which the powerful were often mocked subtly, rather than attacked overtly—as Saul Bellow once put it, "Oppressed people tend to be witty." Jesters known as badchens used to poke fun at prominent members of the community during weddings, creating a good-natured tradition of humour as a levelling device. Rabbi Moshe Waldoks, a scholar of Jewish humour, argued:

You have a lot of shtoch, or jab humor, which is usually meant to deflate pomposity or ego, and to deflate people who consider themselves high and mighty. But Jewish humor was also a device for self-criticism within the community, and I think that's where it really was the most powerful. The humorist, like the prophet, would basically take people to task for their failings. The humor of Eastern Europe especially was centered on defending the poor against the exploitation of the upper classes or other authority figures, so rabbis were made fun of, authority figures were made fun of and rich people were made fun of. It really served as a social catharsis.​

Isn't that exactly what Spider-Man does and part of the exact motivation behind why he constantly makes these witticisms? In battle, he definitely uses it as a levelling device.

And because this Jewish humour is such an integral part of Peter Parker and Spider-Man's personality and his oppression in his own life being part of the driving force behind it (since "oppressed people tend to be witty"), I would argue that being Jewish is actually an essential attribute of his, as much as people argue that Black Panther or Luke Cage's African or African-American heritage is part of theirs. And as such, this is why Peter Parker cannot be portrayed as all these other ethnicities (eg Black, Asian, etc) because then it does take away an essential part of who he is.

But because there have been portrayals in the movies where they have gotten Peter's personality wrong (eg the Maguire movies where he was whiny and non-comical), this leads people to thinking that he's just a generic white male with no particular attributes. But he isn't. His humour is part of his Jewishness and the two go hand in hand.

Raimi got the oppressed side of Peter down pat, but forgot (or overlooked) that this oppression has to have an outlet or release in some way, which is Peter's wit.

Garfield, on the other hand, and the way he was written, didn't get the humour correct either. His humour wasn't coming out of a place of being oppressed or having the typical Jewish attributes, which is why it often came across as mean-spirited. The fact that Garfield's Parker wasn't as down on his luck as Maguire meant that his humour and the way it manifested itself as Spider-Man wasn't really Jewish in nature.

So anyone unhappy about Garfield's humour and thinking that a wisecracking Spider-Man doesn't work is not understanding that it's not that wisecracking and witticism don't work at all per se. It's that it was just done incorrectly and without showing the place where all this humour that is bottled up as Peter manifests itself when he is Spider-Man, because he has to let it out somehow

It's difficult to describe these Jewish traits without writing a really long post, which actually might be better left to an actual article somewhere on the net eventually.

But it's really when you look at Peter's circumstances in the comics, and the way he responds to them and his whole attitude and outlook towards life. It is very typically Jewish both in terms of his story and his sense of humour.

The Jews have had a long history of being oppressed and persecuted by different groups - whether the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Romans or the Nazis, etc. Part of how Jewish humour has developed over the centuries is in response to their circumstances. They can either let themselves be swept under them (and sometimes, inevitably, they do) or they can learn to find joy or humour in life despite all these trials, otherwise they just end up chronically depressed.

Ben Grimm is another character who, even if it were explicitly stated that he were Jewish (it wasn't until much later on in an issue entitled "Remembrance of Things Past"), behaves in a typically Jewish way and has to make the best of his less-than-desirable circumstances while constantly wisecracking.

In a non-comics setting, Ted Mosby from How I Met Your Mother is an example of someone with typically Jewish traits who is frustrated by his situation but still manages to find humour in things (although sometimes he did get rather whiny towards the end, but the template was there).

Raimi managed to portray the oppressed, down-on-his-luck side of Peter very well. One of his biggest contributions was tying in the villains into whatever was going on with Peter's personal life. The villains should, in a good story, be almost a physical manifestation of the struggles a protagonist is facing personally. What Raimi failed to do was show the other side of the coin with how this oppression leads to wit.

So if Peter is oppressed or persecuted in some way, fighting these villains is almost like therapy for him, where he is given the opportunity to get things off his chest and face his demons. All the pent-up frustration about his circumstances manifests itself in his razor-sharp wit, which he uses to his advantage, as described in the part of my post where I quote that section on Jewish humour.

 

[ernesth100]

Cinemasins: That's racist *ding*

 

[Spider2099]

I think Stan Lee incorporated Jewish traits into Peter Parker when coming up with him.

 

[dony2012]

Two and a half weeks till the end of the month.

I'll bet we'll get the news on who was cast in the role sometime this week.

 

[BatsDC]

Dylan's manager looked like she went off to moan at the reporters team rather than the reporter herself. Wouldn't have been professional to just interrupt the interview

 

[Oscorp]

Well I don't really view Peter Parker as a religious character, or a character with any real connection to religion at all. I don't find his humour to be explicitly Jewish in the slightest. It's simply his humour, and I connect to his humour (but not to religion at all)

 

[Spider2099]

They have always made it clear that Spider-Man believes in God or a deity, though his religion was never confirmed.

 

[Web-Head]

Dylan's manager looked like she went off to moan at the reporters team rather than the reporter herself. Wouldn't have been professional to just interrupt the interview

Yeah, the reporter said the manager fidgeted and used annoyed gestures. Then when you see her behind Dylan again she's talking to other people shaking her head. Maybe she was saying "No Spider-Man questions."

 

[Ghostcrow13]

They have always made it clear that Spider-Man believes in God or a deity, though his religion was never confirmed.

One would imagine Odin, I mean he is real in the Marvel Universe

 

[Oscorp]

They have always made it clear that Spider-Man believes in God or a deity, though his religion was never confirmed.

It's not a particular character trait of Peter Parker to be religious though (compared to, say Daredevil or Venom) so I don't connect him to religion at all, and I never will!

 

[The Joker]

I think Stan Lee incorporated Jewish traits into Peter Parker when coming up with him.

Well Stan Lee is Jewish, so that's possible. But Spidey himself has never been portrayed as being Jewish, or particularly religious. Not that I've ever seen anyway.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well I don't really view Peter Parker as a religious character, or a character with any real connection to religion at all. I don't find his humour to be explicitly Jewish in the slightest. It's simply his humour, and I connect to his humour (but not to religion at all)

Stan Lee (and other writers) have not drawn out the religious aspects of Peter Parker at all. But his personality is very much like a typical Jewish New Yorker. And Jewish humour doesn't necessarily connect to religion (unless they are making jokes specifically about religion or Judaism). Jewish humour is more a style/ tradition of humour with certain characteristics - one of them being witticisms at the expense of others.

And of course you connect to it. Most people do connect to Jewish humour. That has been one of the most prominent types of humour used in Hollywood over the last century, whether in films, TV shows or sitcoms. Jewish humour has pervaded popular joke or anecdote telling so much that people aren't even aware now of its origins. While the original version of some of these jokes or anecdotes might have been explicitly Jewish (making reference to part of the Jewish culture or religion), these have been changed to refer to something else (eg a different group).

Eg:

After performing a marriage the Rabbi gave some advice to the newlyweds: "The first ten years are always the hardest," said the Rabbi.
"How many years have you been married?" They asked.
"Ten years," the Rabbi replied.​

Now in a sitcom, the situation could be changed, with just an older friend or neighbour (typically in these things, a husband who feels a bit oppressed by his dominant or nagging wife) telling a newlywed that the first 10 years are hardest. It takes away the explicit Jewish reference, but the origin of that type of joke is Jewish in nature.

Or another example:

A Frenchman, a German and a Jew walk into a bar. "I'm tired and thirsty," says the Frenchman. "I must have wine." "I'm tired and thirsty," says the German. "I must have beer." "I'm tired and thirsty," says the Jew. "I must have diabetes."​

Different versions of these jokes have often changed the ethnicity of these characters, so that you might get an Englishman, Scottishman and Irishman replacing them, with the Irishman standing in for the Jew.

Or if not changing the ethnicities, then in a sitcom, you might have three friends, one of whom is a hypochondriac, and he will stand in for the Jew. But the original Jewish version of the joke plays on the idea that they often think of themselves as hypochondriacs.

I'm pretty sure I could write a variation of that "tired and thirsty" joke relating to different Spider-Man fans specifically, but it might end up offending certain people on these boards (not racially, but they might just think it is a dig at them or turning certain things they say into parody).

And apart from the humour, the other thing that is typically Jewish about Peter Parker is that he's somewhat neurotic and worrying about all kinds of things.

 

[JOE]

Kosher wheat cakes?

 

[Dark Raven]

It's not a particular character trait of Peter Parker to be religious though (compared to, say Daredevil or Venom) so I don't connect him to religion at all, and I never will!

I think you don't quite get what is Jewish humour, which is why you see the word "Jewish" and you are automatically connecting it to religion.

 

[Oscorp]

I think you don't quite get what is Jewish humour, which is why you see the word "Jewish" and you are automatically connecting it to religion.

Ah well, you explained it well in your last post.

I guess he has "jewish humour" as in a kind of humour, though he isn't explicitly jewish.

 

[Webhead2006]

Dark raven I wanted to also say you do have some great views how the humor/bully aspects of peter should he handled and I wanted to say good work.

As i said a few times in last thread I too hate with all this waiting and waiting. If Dylan or even Logan or someone else has the role I like to see marvel/sony announce it already. I do hope we get it revealed before April 1st. I really don't want to see how the board is on that date if we don't have it announced yet.

Also I was thinking the other day if Chameleon is used in the solo films, another films/agents of shield/netflix shows. Would you guys like if his disguise gag is he stole old shield/hydra face altering masks we saw on aos and winter solider.

 

[Dark Raven]

Ah well, you explained it well in your last post.

I guess he has "jewish humour" as in a kind of humour, though he isn't explicitly jewish.

You've got it.

My belief is that Peter Parker is a Jew in everything that he experiences, his whole attitude to life, his humour and his insecurities, without being explicitly a Jew at all, if that makes sense. A Jew in all but name.

In other words, Stan Lee imbued the character with typical Jewish traits, but didn't necessarily make him Jewish in religion, because he didn't want to tie him down to any one group. But what we all love about Peter - the way he is always down on his luck, can't seem to catch a break, obsesses about all kinds of things, is somewhat neurotic and slightly hypochondriac, and his razor-sharp wit - that's all typically Jewish whether we realise it or not.

Dark raven I wanted to also say you do have some great views how the humor/bully aspects of peter should he handled and I wanted to say good work.

As i said a few times in last thread I too hate with all this waiting and waiting. If Dylan or even Logan or someone else has the role I like to see marvel/sony announce it already. I do hope we get it revealed before April 1st. I really don't want to see how the board is on that date if we don't have it announced yet.

Also I was thinking the other day if Chameleon is used in the solo films, another films/agents of shield/netflix shows. Would you guys like if his disguise gag is he stole old shield/hydra face altering masks we saw on aos and winter solider.

Thanks!

And yes, Chameleon could use a disguise like in AOS. It would link into existing technology within the MCU.

 

[Webhead2006]

Ya for some characters it's best to keep religion out of things. But ya Lee probably did think of those things when he wrote the character.

Ya I was thinking about it the other day. Be better then just he is a makeup artist thing. Or the silly camera belt thing he had in the 90s toon. We can still keep the spy angle with him. And also that he wears the second "white mask" covering his true face Thing. And the shield/hydra face masks is a great way to handle his stick of pretending to be someone.

Heck it probably would work better for him to first show up in aos or one of the netflix ahows. Before they toss him in a solo spidey film. I would love to see the character show up. Same goes with silver Sable and her wild pack gang. Would make for a good aos episode and they could team up to go after dimtri.

* off topic got a quick question for everyone. For any users on mobile device when you guys go to main threads page or click on a thread. Do any of you also get that annoying I zombie ad popup.

 

[melvintwj]

Could any kind soul link me to the video of the Dylan interview which had the angry manager/agent going on?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Dark Raven, I must say good work with the "Jewish humor" aspect of Spider-Man. Of course, Stan Lee, being Jewish, imbued the character with such traits. Peter, though never explicitly saying anything, has portrayed as someone who believes in God, but not specifically religious. It is assumed that Pete is some denomination of Christian (Parker being an English surname) with a possibility of Catholic (Aunt May's maiden name is Reilly, which is Irish). However, growing up as a New Yorker, Pete has picked up the Jewish New Yorker witticism by osmosis.

Not to turn this into a religious discussion, which it shouldn't, I agree with you that what is commonly called as Jewish New Yorker humor is a big part of the character.

It also may explain why Garfield's "wit" may be off to some fans, myself included.