Moon Knight Marvel Studios' Moon Knight General Discussion Thread

[SirStrangefolk]

1. To say that no one is harmed by unrealistic depictions of the legal system feels like a *huge* stretch, since those unrealistic depictions contribute to, amongst other things, jury decisions. Consider the influences on those decisions of, say. . . instant perfect forensics, confessions only ever coming from the guilty, and police being flawless paragons of virtue.

2. There is a limit to how much accuracy you can demand in portrayal of disability from what is essentially a superhero adventure tale, given that a strictly accurate portrayal of virtually all disabilities would end up with "The adventure tale does not happen, because a person with X disability is physically or mentally incapable of doing the tasks involved in being a swashbuckling adventurer". There is a spectrum, and not all inaccuracies serve a useful purpose, but presumably you do not want to push things to the "People with disabilities don't get to have superheroic power fantasies" end of the spectrum.

Well,
1. Maybe that's true. I wouldn't know because there's no jury trials in my country. And if a jury can base their decisions on tv shows perhaps that is an issue...

2. "The adventure tale does not happen, because a person with X disability is physically or mentally incapable of doing the tasks involved in being a swashbuckling adventurer" seems very harsh, given that historically there have been plenty of disabled people that have performed great feats, both physical and otherwise. So in a world where regular humans can train hard enough to join the Avengers (Widow, Hawkeye, Falcon, etc.) of course disabled people at paralympian level could do the same. The point was, if you're going to make something about a disabled hero and you want "to have superheroic power fantasies", you should make sure that you portray the disability in such a way that disabled people can identify with the character (which they won't if the disability is portrayed inaccurately) and that your portrayal isn't hurtful or harmful, otherwise it'd be a rather poor power fantasy.

Getting the name of the disability itself wrong, saying that someone with that disability is "suffering" because of it even though most with it don't consider themselves to be suffering, and giving an inaccurate description with the wrong terminology (as Feige all did), probably won't make DID systems feel empowered.

 

[TheVileOne]

Except Moon Knight is not just about catering to people who have a personality or mental disorder.

I don't think what metaphysician said is harsh at all. Yes, disabled and handicapable people in the real world are capable of great feats and also becoming athletes, paralympians, etc. But this isn't about someone with a physical handicap either. And this isn't about non-powered humans who are skilled enough to become superheroes.

 

[Iceman]

or he dropped out because of Metal Gear Solid

Oh, hope not. This would be an interesting role for him.

 

[TheVileOne]

Chances are that Metal Gear Solid is years away from actually happening anyway.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Except Moon Knight is not just about catering to people who have a personality or mental disorder.

True, but I also don't see how making sure they aren't misrepresented would get in the way of catering to other people too? What exactly is the argument here for wanting a mental disorder to be misrepresented? The way I see it the pros and cons are such:

Misrepresenting DID
Pros:
- ???
Cons:
- People with DID don't feel represented and don't get heroes to identify with
- People with DID encounter stigma, misunderstanding and potential harm from people influenced by the bad representation in one of the biggest media franchises of all time
Representing DID accurately
Pros:
- People with DID feel represented and get heroes to identify with
- People with DID are more understood by the people around them who have seen people like them on tv.
Cons:
- ???

In either case there's characters with a condition general audiences aren't very familiar with yet and that enables near infinite story potential, so I don't really see that as a pro or con for either.

I don't think what metaphysician said is harsh at all. Yes, disabled and handicapable people in the real world are capable of great feats and also becoming athletes, paralympians, etc. But this isn't about someone with a physical handicap either. And this isn't about non-powered humans who are skilled enough to become superheroes.

Yes, it was a bit of topic because metaphysician's claim was about general disability rather than this specific instance so I replied in kind. That said, do you believe Moon Knight with more accurate DID would be "incapable of doing the tasks involved in being a superhero"? If so, why? And also, regardless of the portrayal of the character, how would things like at least using correct terminology and not saying the name of the disability wrong impact the story that could be told at all? That seems like such a small effort to get things right.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yes, it was a bit of topic because metaphysician's claim was about general disability rather than this specific instance so I replied in kind. That said, do you believe Moon Knight with more accurate DID would be "incapable of doing the tasks involved in being a superhero"? If so, why? And also, regardless of the portrayal of the character, how would things like at least using correct terminology and not saying the name of the disability wrong impact the story that could be told at all? That seems like such a small effort to get things right.

I just feel like we're conflating topics here.

I think there should be questions around Moon Knight on his mental stability. Like "this dude really is crazy and is rather unhinged," and "should this guy really be a superhero?"

We should also be questioning if Khonshu is a real entity or not. I think it would be better if the show constantly kept us guessing.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I think there should be questions around Moon Knight on his mental stability. Like "this dude really is crazy and is rather unhinged," and "should this guy really be a superhero?"

We should also be questioning if Khonshu is a real entity or not. I think it would be better if the show constantly kept us guessing.

And I will again point out that the angle of people with mental disability are unstable, unhinged and completely detached from reality is inaccurate and extremely harmful to real people with mental disability. I think the harm that could do would always outweigh what you think would be 'fun' to see.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah, I don't see that at all. Not all superhero or vigilante characters are well adjusted, normal and sane individuals. I see nothing wrong with the scenario of exploring vigilante or superhero psychosis, especially in a fictional setting. I won't say it's always done in a well thought out manner. Case in point, Heroes in Crisis, which was terrible. But it's about the execution.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Yeah, I don't see that at all..

I'm curious, what is your experience with people with mental disabilities? Have you ever talked to them about this topic or listened to some of them explain their experiences with regards to this topic?

 

[metaphysician]

I'm curious, what is your experience with people with mental disabilities? Have you ever talked to them about this topic or listened to some of them explain their experiences with regards to this topic?

In my case, that would mainly be one friend who has PTSD. Which. . . realistic PTSD *absolutely* provides an impediment to a traditional adventuring life, because it interferes with the ability to react rationally to surrounding circumstances if one of your trigger events occur. It doesn't turn someone into a raving lunatic, not at all, but inappropriate fight-or-flight response, and the need to spend mental effort keeping that under control when it happens? Not exactly suitable for high risk activities. There's a reason PTSD is grounds for medical discharge in any modern military.

Are there mental disabilities that would still allow for a meaningful swashbuckling adventure type life? Sure. But not all of them. And by my, admittedly layman's, understanding of DID. . . in its most verified and realistic form, it is essentially a condition of extreme adaptive responses to surrounding circumstances, extreme enough to be maladaptive in normal life. Whether a person with DID would be adventure-capable would depend on exactly what form of adaptation their stress-triggered persona possesses. Its a borderline case, so you probably can work with it.

( And all of this is for mental disabilities, there are countless physical disabilities where, bluntly, the *only* way you have a superhero who has them, is if you have non-real-world elements like super kung fu or cybernetic limbs that functionally mean "you do not actually have the disability". Daredevil works as a blind superhero, because he has a superpower that replaces his vision and provides substitute functionality. )

 

[SirStrangefolk]

In my case, that would mainly be one friend who has PTSD. Which. . . realistic PTSD *absolutely* provides an impediment to a traditional adventuring life, because it interferes with the ability to react rationally to surrounding circumstances if one of your trigger events occur. It doesn't turn someone into a raving lunatic, not at all, but inappropriate fight-or-flight response, and the need to spend mental effort keeping that under control when it happens? Not exactly suitable for high risk activities. There's a reason PTSD is grounds for medical discharge in any modern military.

Are there mental disabilities that would still allow for a meaningful swashbuckling adventure type life? Sure. But not all of them. And by my, admittedly layman's, understanding of DID. . . in its most verified and realistic form, it is essentially a condition of extreme adaptive responses to surrounding circumstances, extreme enough to be maladaptive in normal life. Whether a person with DID would be adventure-capable would depend on exactly what form of adaptation their stress-triggered persona possesses. Its a borderline case, so you probably can work with it.

( And all of this is for mental disabilities, there are countless physical disabilities where, bluntly, the *only* way you have a superhero who has them, is if you have non-real-world elements like super kung fu or cybernetic limbs that functionally mean "you do not actually have the disability". Daredevil works as a blind superhero, because he has a superpower that replaces his vision and provides substitute functionality. )

This is a pretty good response. I think having a character struggle with some things as a consequence of a disability is fine and realistic. (in fact, I should say that disabled characters that have superpowers or enhancements that completely negate their disability like Daredevil are generally not considered good representation in my experience.)

 

[metaphysician]

The problem is, you have a dilemma: do you introduce a character who is reasonably representative of the actual limits and struggles of a disability, but who is thus by definition required to be a secondary character? Or do you introduce a character who is able to take the main stage, do all the fantastic and appealing primary heroic actions, but who by definition also has to "cheat" on the real limits and struggles? No one character can fulfill both requirements. Its less a fine line and more a wide zone, in which no character is ever going to be perfect. Best possible outcome is, you do what works best for the story, hope the audience is understanding, and be prepared to accept that some people will lambast you anyway because they wanted it the other way.

( And that isn't even touching the issue of fantastical or futuristic settings wherein various physical disabilities are still a thing, when they by all obvious logic *shouldn't*. . . )

 

[SirStrangefolk]

The problem is, you have a dilemma: do you introduce a character who is reasonably representative of the actual limits and struggles of a disability, but who is thus by definition required to be a secondary character? Or do you introduce a character who is able to take the main stage, do all the fantastic and appealing primary heroic actions, but who by definition also has to "cheat" on the real limits and struggles? No one character can fulfill both requirements. Its less a fine line and more a wide zone, in which no character is ever going to be perfect. Best possible outcome is, you do what works best for the story, hope the audience is understanding, and be prepared to accept that some people will lambast you anyway because they wanted it the other way.

( And that isn't even touching the issue of fantastical or futuristic settings wherein various physical disabilities are still a thing, when they by all obvious logic *shouldn't*. . . )

I mean, the easiest way to do this would probably be to have one or more professional disability consultants who are tapped into that community to make sure that the right balance is struck. That's probably better than guessing/doing whatever and hope people are okay with it. There's a reason that job exists. (Plus if you can show you at least tried, people will probably be more forgiving anyway)

 

[metaphysician]

I mean, the easiest way to do this would probably be to have one or more professional disability consultants who are tapped into that community to make sure that the right balance is struck. That's probably better than guessing/doing whatever and hope people are okay with it. There's a reason that job exists. (Plus if you can show you at least tried, people will probably be more forgiving anyway)

Oh, you absolutely want the consultants. Just, don't expect them to be a magic solution.

 

[Albright]

Joseph Gordon-Levitt Rumored To Be In Talks With Marvel Studios

I would’ve liked Oscar Isaac...but JGL was my favourite actor for Moon Knight (if he not turns out to be Reed)

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Wait... Is there a recast or something?

 

[Albright]

Oscar Isaac hasn’t been confirmed yet - the investors day was the perfect time and suspiciously a week earlier it was announced, that he’ll be Solid Snake in a Metal Gear Solid project.

 

[TheVileOne]

Wait... Is there a recast or something?

Rumor says nothing about him playing Moon Knight/Marc Spector. It's rumored "he had recently been in contact with Marvel," which I'm sorry, but that's vague as ****.

The article is speculating, with no evidence to back it up, that he could be playing a villain in Captain Marvel 2, Moon Knight, or Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3.

Oscar Isaac hasn’t been confirmed yet - the investors day was the perfect time and suspiciously a week earlier it was announced, that he’ll be Solid Snake in a Metal Gear Solid project.

A Metal Gear movie with no release date or production start yet.

 

[Albright]

same for a Blade or Fantastic 4 movie...but people are going crazy about that, like it’s being filmed next week.

Sony wants it’s own thing with the Movies/series based on ps-games. They will fasttrack their own streaming platform soon, with those PS IP’s and all the Spiderverse stuff.
That is why , I think, Oscar Isaac is going to be blocked.

 

[TheVileOne]

same for a Blade or Fantastic 4 movie...but people are going crazy about that, like it’s being filmed next week.

Sony wants it’s own thing with the Movies/series based on ps-games. They will fasttrack their own streaming platform soon, with those PS IP’s and all the Spiderverse stuff.
That is why , I think, Oscar Isaac is going to be blocked.

Not really. He's attached to a lot of stuff right now like Great Machine and Francis and the Godfather. It depends on scheduling.

This Metal Gear Solid movie has been in development for years. I'll believe it gets made when I see it.

 

[mace1]

Moon Knight Cinematographer Confirms Oscar Isaac’s Role in the Disney+ Series

Moon Knight cinematographer Gregory Middleton has confirmed Oscar Isaac will play the titular Marvel superhero on the upcoming Disney+ series.

Moon Knight Cinematographer Confirms Oscar Isaac’s Role in the Disney+ Series

 

[TheVileOne]

"Can't give any details of course, not allowed."

You just did...

 

[metaphysician]

So, anyone want to make bets on which will be better, Moon Knight or Metal Gear? *ahem*

 

[Web-Head]

MARVEL'S MOON KNIGHT SERIES HAS SNAGGED ADDITIONAL DIRECTORS

Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead, indie auteurs who have garnered a following on the film festival circuit for their sci-fi/horror movies such as The Endless, are joining Mohamed Diab, the Egyptian filmmaker behind Middle Eastern drama Clash, as directors of the series that will star Oscar Isaac.

It is understood that Benson and Moorhead, who last helmed Anthony Mackie and Jamie Dornan pic Synchronic, will direct several episodes.

https://link.hollywoodreporter.com/view/5d72bf807e55540ee8500a04dggx9.cua/0f4e2bd1

 

[mace1]

Moon Knight: Nick Kroll, Daveed Diggs Were Reportedly Considered for the Marvel Role

Before beginning negotiations with Oscar Isaac, Marvel's Moon Knight reportedly considered comedian Nick Kroll and musician/actor Daveed Diggs.

Moon Knight: Nick Kroll, Daveed Diggs Were Reportedly Considered for the Marvel Role