Secret Invasion Marvel Studios' Secret Invasion General Discussion Thread

[darthcoolness3]

When?

last year, when they announced the shows for Disney Plus

 

[Dark Raven]

last year, when they announced the shows for Disney Plus

I don't recall hearing that. So according to that then, Phil Coulson died in Avengers and never came back?

 

[SirStrangefolk]

last year, when they announced the shows for Disney Plus

Could we get a link/exact wording on that to confirm?

 

[Mike Murdock]

last year, when they announced the shows for Disney Plus

Do you have the exact quote or a link to it?

 

[darthcoolness3]

well, Agents of Shield uses an different Marvel Logo than the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe

 

[The Batman]

That's...not an exact link or quote to your claim.

 

[Dark Raven]

That's...not an exact link or quote to your claim.

It's not much more than speculation or inference if the difference in logos is the basis of it. Even the early MCU logos and fanfare are different from the ones now.

 

[SpocksBrain]

Do you have the exact quote or a link to it?

It’s hard to post a link to someone’s imagination.

 

[Mike Murdock]

well, Agents of Shield uses an different Marvel Logo than the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe

That's because it was produced by Marvel Television. They couldn't legally use the Marvel Studios link. But that's always been the case (not just since Disney Plus). It would also be true for Agent Carter. The claim that it's not canon is hard to square with Jarvis's appearance in Endgame.

 

[Dark Raven]

So is there any actual evidence or quote from Feige himself that Agents of SHIELD is not considered canon?

 

[metaphysician]

I mean, do we actually need more evidence other than the various ways AoS was indifferent or outright contradictory to movie canon? Sure, it'd be nice to get official confirmation, but its not like you could fit AoS into the broader MCU without a sledgehammer and a willingness to smash off 20% of the edges, anyway.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Agents of SHIELD stopped being canon around season three I think. I don't consider any of the Netflix shows canon either.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well there's a difference to a show being conceived of as in canon and clearly moving out of canon to one that was meant to be in canon and then later being declared not to be.

Clearly by the end AOS was not in canon but the question is whether Feige ever considered it in canon even at the start when it closely followed the events of Winter Soldier.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I mean, do we actually need more evidence other than the various ways AoS was indifferent or outright contradictory to movie canon? Sure, it'd be nice to get official confirmation, but its not like you could fit AoS into the broader MCU without a sledgehammer and a willingness to smash off 20% of the edges, anyway.

Agents of SHIELD was ignored by the movies, but the inconsistencies aren't really much more inconsistent that Spider-Man Homecoming screwing up the timeline of when movies took place.

There was an article recently that showed Marvel Studios still cared about what Agents of SHIELD did as recently as the finale to ensure consistency. Apparently, the show wanted to call themselves SWORD and were told no. If the show wasn't considered to be part of the same universe, would Marvel Studios care what they did? After all, they could easily just ignore it, right?

 

[OB12]

Agents of SHIELD was ignored by the movies, but the inconsistencies aren't really much more inconsistent that Spider-Man Homecoming screwing up the timeline of when movies took place.

There was an article recently that showed Marvel Studios still cared about what Agents of SHIELD did as recently as the finale to ensure consistency. Apparently, the show wanted to call themselves SWORD and were told no. If the show wasn't considered to be part of the same universe, would Marvel Studios care what they did? After all, they could easily just ignore it, right?

I think what is going to happen with Marvel Television content, is what I suspected all along, Feige is going to pick and choose what he wants to use. He even said as much recently when asked about Charlie Cox in SM3, he said everything is on the table. He doesn't have hard and fast rules about what is and is not canon and in the case of AoS, there are some characters with good fan followings and interesting content that I think he may choose to continue.

 

[Kev4000]

I dont think Feige will refering anything of the non-MCU-studios. It will be more like soft reboots imo.

 

[Albright]

does anybody know, when it wasn’t canon any more?
They had Samuel Jackson, Cobie Smulder and Jamie Alexander in a few episodes.
Also they were referring to the events of Thor TDW, Captain America TWS and Avengers AoU

 

[NotNickFury]

does anybody know, when it wasn’t canon any more?
They had Samuel Jackson, Cobie Smulder and Jamie Alexander in a few episodes.
Also they were referring to the events of Thor TDW, Captain America TWS and Avengers AoU

That relationship has and always will have been one way. Same for the Netflix shows. Because the films never had or needed to acknowledge the events of the shows.

 

[Kev4000]

does anybody know, when it wasn’t canon any more?

Its hard to tell because they mention some actual events like Civil War here and then. The VIP MCU guest stars stoped after season 2 IIRC. And even in season 2 the whole Inhumans-Storyline feel non-canon, since over the whole world Inhumans awaking but we never see one or even mentioned on the big screen.

So for me only season 1 would be canon at best. Though the resuscitation of Coulson with Alien blood sounds even more legit after Captain Marvel, all guest star appereances are kind of forgettable and only easter eggs.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Its hard to tell because they mention some actual events like Civil War here and then. The VIP MCU guest stars stoped after season 2 IIRC. And even in season 2 the whole Inhumans-Storyline feel non-canon, since over the whole world Inhumans awaking but we never see one or even mentioned on the big screen.

So for me only season 1 would be canon at best. Though the resuscitation of Coulson with Alien blood sounds even more legit after Captain Marvel, all guest star appereances are kind of forgettable and only easter eggs.

Season 3 still had president Ellis and Gideon Malick (although the latter was such a small and unnamed part in Avengers that I'm not sure you'd want to count it).

 

[Zarex]

does anybody know, when it wasn’t canon any more?
They had Samuel Jackson, Cobie Smulder and Jamie Alexander in a few episodes.
Also they were referring to the events of Thor TDW, Captain America TWS and Avengers AoU

Season 3, which commenced airing in September 2015. Earlier that month it was announced that Kevin Feige's Marvel Studios was no longer part of Marvel Entertainment, run by Ike Perlmutter. I don't believe any character cross overs took place after that point, and by that time the show was pretty much completely separate from what was occurring onscreen. Powers Booth's Gideon Malick did appear in AOS, but that character was created for the show and his voice over character in Avengers was unidentified.

From what I have read, Ike, Jeph Loeb and ABC put AOS into production against Feige's wishes. And his team (mostly) stopped collaborating with the TV SHIELD crew after the split. I think the show may have been able to maintain continuity if they had Coulson be an LMD from the start (so he would be dead in both TV and film) and the group remained the small rag tag group of ex SHIELD operatives they were after Season 1. Instead they grew back into a major organization with a large number of personnel and a well stocked base despite having no government funding. Apparently neither Marvel Entertainment nor ABC wanted the show to be Marvel's A-Team.

I think the best way to look at AOS is that it occurs in another reality in which Coulson is resurrected after the Avengers and SHIELD continues on as a going concern after the events of CA:TWS.

 

[Venom 1988]

I think the best way to look at AOS is that it occurs in another reality in which Coulson is resurrected after the Avengers and SHIELD continues on as a going concern after the events of CA:TWS.

That's honestly the best way to look at it at this point.

 

[metaphysician]

In retrospect, I still think Agents of SHIELD was doomed before it even aired. The fundamental problem was that ABC wanted a status quo investigative procedural, "Marvel NCIS", and this was never going to be possible with Marvel Studios planning on blowing up SHIELD. It probably shouldn't have even been greenlit as it was, or at all. This isn't even an issue of canonicity or movie support, but a fundamental "Our underlying premise relies on something that isn't so". You can work around "We have to live in the cracks between movies and big events", you can't really work around "The organization we need to exist, doesn't exist anymore".

There are ways to try and avoid this issue, but the more you move away from the investigative procedural premise, the more you move away from the whole reason ABC wanted to do the show at all. Maybe they could have been sold on a more A-Team or Burn Notice foundation, maybe not.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I think what is going to happen with Marvel Television content, is what I suspected all along, Feige is going to pick and choose what he wants to use. He even said as much recently when asked about Charlie Cox in SM3, he said everything is on the table. He doesn't have hard and fast rules about what is and is not canon and in the case of AoS, there are some characters with good fan followings and interesting content that I think he may choose to continue.

That's always been my take as well. I do think it's important to distinguish between canon and retcons. My belief based on all the comments everyone in an official position has made is that the Marvel Television stuff is canon, but the movies, of course, are free to retcon anything that's inconvenient for them and ignore anything they don't care about. Unlike Marvel Studios properties, there's no pressure to include them.

That relationship has and always will have been one way. Same for the Netflix shows. Because the films never had or needed to acknowledge the events of the shows.

With the obvious exception of Endgame and Agent Carter.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I don't recall at all if any of the Netflix shows mentioned the Sokovia Accords. And they always referred to the Battle of New York as "the incident."