Mary, Queen of Scots (Saoirse Ronan)

[Loki882]

"Born to Power?" Yeah no not really. The real Elizabeth was disinherited/declared illegitimate when she was very young by her father (Henry VIII), who also had her mother executed. It took years to even begin to reconcile with her father, and after he died, she was imprisoned in the Tower of London for a time by her half-sister (Mary Tudor) who was queen at the time, and came close to be killed at times. Then she had to wait for both of her half-siblings (Mary and Edward) to die first just to become Queen at all.

Then she was faced with many in Catholic Europe seeing her as illegitimate, internal strife at home, The Spanish Armada, and just the general challenges of being a female ruler at that time, etc. The only reason why she survived is because she was a cunning, intelligent, and ruthless political leader who also surrounded herself with capable allies.

Elizabeth had to fight for everything that she got, she wasn't "Born to Power."

That part of the poster bugged me.

 

[Kane52630]

[YT]wnqjSgMU36U[/YT]

Looks great. I'm digging the way its shot.

Looks mediocre.

shocker.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Looks quite similar in style and feel to Fassbender's Macbeth which was incredibly good.

Looking forward to this and hope it's as strong as previous versions of the historical story.

 

[harlequinade]

"Born to Power?" Yeah no not really. The real Elizabeth was disinherited/declared illegitimate when she was very young by her father (Henry VIII), who also had her mother executed. It took years to even begin to reconcile with her father, and after he died, she was imprisoned in the Tower of London for a time by her half-sister (Mary Tudor) who was queen at the time, and came close to be killed at times. Then she had to wait for both of her half-siblings (Mary and Edward) to die first just to become Queen at all.

Then she was faced with many in Catholic Europe seeing her as illegitimate, internal strife at home, The Spanish Armada, and just the general challenges of being a female ruler at that time, etc. The only reason why she survived is because she was a cunning, intelligent, and ruthless political leader who also surrounded herself with capable allies.

Elizabeth had to fight for everything that she got, she wasn't "Born to Power."

That part of the poster bugged me.

The trailer tagline is also stolen from the Prestige trailer

 

[chamber-music]

Seems like they are making out Mary was the good one and Elizabeth was bad when in reality it was more complicated.

Mary got screwed over by her own nobles and totally wanted the English throne of which she was a heir to. Elizabeth was paranoid about the Catholics wanting to kill her and take the throne from her. She was right because they did want to kill her and take the throne. They tried multiple times during her reign.

Both Queens were between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Loki882]

Also that Mary might have been entrapped in the end, and Elizabeth felt like she HAD to do what she did ultimately, regardless of if she really wanted to or not.

Also Mary was under house arrest for close to 20 years, so it's not like Elizabeth was jumping at the chance to get rid of her right away.

 

[Lencho01]

Looks pretty good. The music really helped a lot with the trailer too.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Elizabeth was very reluctant to have Mary executed. She dithered for months signing off on it. She was essentially forced into it. Even then she tried to claim she never meant for it to happen and blamed her secretary for messing up, although how truthful she was being is up for debate.

 

[godisawesome]

Yeah, it looks like they're laying on the good queen, evil queen dynamic a bit thick there, especially with the decision to use Elizabeth's later application of think makeup to make her seem somewhat inhuman.

Of course, Mary should be speaking French as her first language also, but no one's going to apply that to Richard the Lion Heart or half of the other English Kings.

Honestly, all the late-Tudor-era queens are more complicated, sympathetic, ruthless, and shaded by grey than would suit any story that wants a binary good/evil layout:

- "Bloody" Mary *did* have 283 people burned alive...but her entire kill-count throughout her reign was less than a single year under her father Henry VIII, and her claim to the throne was based on a presumption that Henry's creating a church to divorce her mother was an illegal and ungodly move, and in spite of spending her entire reign knowing that Elizabeth's existance was a threat to her throne, she never had her executed, even though they'd grown apart from when she'd basically raised her sister.

- Elizabeth, as Loki882 noted, had to scramble to survive a treacherous childhood and adolescence, involving her mother being executed, her stepfather apparently molesting her, and a court that was almost certainly trying to persuade her older sister into having her killed, reduced to begging for her life while incarcerated in the Tower. Then she became arguably one of England's greatest monarchs, and yeah, eventually and seemingly reluctantly had her cousin killed to preserve her throne.

- Mary Queen of Scots had one wild life and reign; I mean, there's a reason CW felt like making a melodrama about it. Her reign was tumultuous, her love life likewise, and her imprisonment tragic. She was almost certainly willing to replace her cousin, and may very well have plotted to do so, but that's not unique in the world of European monarchies.

I mean, if you add in Lady Jane Grey, you've got four women who all lost something to the Wars of Religion and the English Throne while simply trying to survive and attain what all of them would believe was honestly their birthright. "Bloody" Mary had to execute Lady Grey even though she was sympathetic to her, Elizabeth had to execute Mary Queen of Scots, and it all ended with two queens beheaded by sisters who lay side by side in death, since Elizabeth seems to have shared her older sister's complicated feelings about their family, with Mary Queen of Scot's still having her family line successfully unite both Thrones.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was John that was the first Norman/Angevin monarch that could speak proper English.

The same thing that you mention about the Tudors can also be applied to the Stuarts, most of whom are usually depicted as comic book supervillains. Literally in the case of James I (see Marvel 1602).

The black/white viewpoint particularly doesn't really work here, because unlike Jane Grey who was largely just a pawn, Mary Stuart very probably was really guilty. I've seen very little indicating or arguing otherwise.

 

[godisawesome]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was John that was the first Norman/Angevin monarch that could speak proper English.

The same thing that you mention about the Tudors can also be applied to the Stuarts, most of whom are usually depicted as comic book supervillains. Literally in the case of James I (see Marvel 1602).

The black/white viewpoint particularly doesn't really work here, because unlike Jane Grey who was largely just a pawn, Mary Stuart very probably was really guilty. I've seen very little indicating or arguing otherwise.

I believe you're right; that's the kind of detail I wish they'd use in some Robin Hood stories, to play up John's strange dichotomy of intelligence and foolishness, generosity and greed, intellectualism and baseness.

And yeah, Mary almost certainly was guilty, as even the trailer seems to acknowledge a bit with with Mary's insistence she's actually Elizabeth's Queen... Though its again notable that in regards to Royal inheritance and succession, guilt or innocence is almost always a matter of timing, context, and success-to-failure ratio.

The *only* reason the Tudors could claim the throne at all was because Henry Tudor killed the last male Yorkist claimant in Richard III in battle. His claim was laughable by itself; not only was he not a Lancaster by blood, since his family line was only half brothers to the English king by way of his mother's affair with a Welshmen, but an act of Parliament specifically forbade them from being in the line of succession... Kind of like how an act of Parliament declared Richard's nephews illegitimate so Richard himself could take the throne. Henry Tudor marrying Elizabeth of York was the closest the family came to an old school legitimate claim by blood.

 

[Sawyer]

Time to float

 

[Fincher]

It looks good to me.

 

[Silvermoth]

Ha, it looks like a camp classic with no basis in history but oh well it might be fun

 

[Kane52630]

Wait hold on... you mean to tell me they make historical dramas where they are loose on facts in favor for dramatization? That's unheard of.

*throws my 300 bluray in the trash*

 

[chamber-music]

You would be amazed at how many people think Braveheart is a documentary.

 

[Marvolo]

"Born to Power?" Yeah no not really. The real Elizabeth was disinherited/declared illegitimate when she was very young by her father (Henry VIII), who also had her mother executed. It took years to even begin to reconcile with her father, and after he died, she was imprisoned in the Tower of London for a time by her half-sister (Mary Tudor) who was queen at the time, and came close to be killed at times. Then she had to wait for both of her half-siblings (Mary and Edward) to die first just to become Queen at all.

Then she was faced with many in Catholic Europe seeing her as illegitimate, internal strife at home, The Spanish Armada, and just the general challenges of being a female ruler at that time, etc. The only reason why she survived is because she was a cunning, intelligent, and ruthless political leader who also surrounded herself with capable allies.

Elizabeth had to fight for everything that she got, she wasn't "Born to Power."

That part of the poster bugged me.

Any person born into a royal family, especially the child of a king and not a bastard, is born to power. They are born to the power of the royal family. Elizabeth's struggles dont change the fact that she was a part of the royal family from the time she was born.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Mary was Queen from when she was a week old, while Elizabeth was declared a bastard and entitled to nothing by the age of two since Henry's marriage to her mother was annulled. The taglines should be swapped.

 

[scarlet-witch]

I think this looks great, but I'm sure there will be plenty of ******ing over it not being 100% historically accurate because you know, all period pieces must be.

 

[godisawesome]

I think this looks great, but I'm sure there will be plenty of ******ing over it not being 100% historically accurate because you know, all period pieces must be.

Eh, I tend to only get super irritated when the simplified Hollwood story seems so set on writing for the weak, dull audoence members that they generally think exist that they take an awesome, complicated, highly dramatic element of history and sap the drama from it to keep it "simple."

Painting any of the Tudor-era queens in simple black and white morality misses the fact that Game of Thrones proved that complex antagonism is more dramatically wealthy; it looks a bit like they're going to try and make this a Robb Stark (Mary) vs Cersei (Elizabeth) challenge, when it's actually more of a Tyrion (Elizabeth) vs Danaerys (Mary) challenge, where both sides have had to deal with incredible trauma and cutthroat politics and neither is wholly good or wholly evil.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Eh, I tend to only get super irritated when the simplified Hollwood story seems so set on writing for the weak, dull audoence members that they generally think exist that they take an awesome, complicated, highly dramatic element of history and sap the drama from it to keep it "simple."

Although even then it can be great if executed well. Gladiator, for example.

I usually only have an issue with something being historically accurate if it is being specifically sold as something that is historically accurate (ex. "Come see the TRUE story behind <fill in the blank>" or something like that). Otherwise, it is all about the story being told in the film or show itself. I do tend to dislike turning one side into one-dimensional supervillains, but that's because one-dimensional supervillains are usually not very interesting. Anything dealing with the American Revolution tends to fall into this problem (I did like Turn though), where the real thing is simply far more fascinating than most fictional depictions.

 

[Schlosser85]

I hope they don’t overdo it portraying Elizabeth as some stereotypical “evil queen”.

 

[Loki882]

I think this looks great, but I'm sure there will be plenty of ******ing over it not being 100% historically accurate because you know, all period pieces must be.

It wouldn't bother that much if it didn't imply a black and white morality hero/villain dynamic whereas the truth was far more complicated (and interesting).

I mean even Elizabeth's makeup. She survived a bout of Smallpox which scarred up her face and caused her hair to fall out. THAT'S why she wore make up/wigs (also there were heavy metals in the make up which poisoned her as well) and she was just aging in general.

This makes it seem like it's there to make her less "human" when the opposite was true.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yeah, it looks like they're laying on the good queen, evil queen dynamic a bit thick there, especially with the decision to use Elizabeth's later application of think makeup to make her seem somewhat inhuman.

Of course, Mary should be speaking French as her first language also, but no one's going to apply that to Richard the Lion Heart or half of the other English Kings.

Honestly, all the late-Tudor-era queens are more complicated, sympathetic, ruthless, and shaded by grey than would suit any story that wants a binary good/evil layout:

- "Bloody" Mary *did* have 283 people burned alive...but her entire kill-count throughout her reign was less than a single year under her father Henry VIII, and her claim to the throne was based on a presumption that Henry's creating a church to divorce her mother was an illegal and ungodly move, and in spite of spending her entire reign knowing that Elizabeth's existance was a threat to her throne, she never had her executed, even though they'd grown apart from when she'd basically raised her sister.

- Elizabeth, as Loki882 noted, had to scramble to survive a treacherous childhood and adolescence, involving her mother being executed, her stepfather apparently molesting her, and a court that was almost certainly trying to persuade her older sister into having her killed, reduced to begging for her life while incarcerated in the Tower. Then she became arguably one of England's greatest monarchs, and yeah, eventually and seemingly reluctantly had her cousin killed to preserve her throne.

- Mary Queen of Scots had one wild life and reign; I mean, there's a reason CW felt like making a melodrama about it. Her reign was tumultuous, her love life likewise, and her imprisonment tragic. She was almost certainly willing to replace her cousin, and may very well have plotted to do so, but that's not unique in the world of European monarchies.

I mean, if you add in Lady Jane Grey, you've got four women who all lost something to the Wars of Religion and the English Throne while simply trying to survive and attain what all of them would believe was honestly their birthright. "Bloody" Mary had to execute Lady Grey even though she was sympathetic to her, Elizabeth had to execute Mary Queen of Scots, and it all ended with two queens beheaded by sisters who lay side by side in death, since Elizabeth seems to have shared her older sister's complicated feelings about their family, with Mary Queen of Scot's still having her family line successfully unite both Thrones.

Interesting that they went from French to German within a few centuries.

 

[chamber-music]

Interesting that they went from French to German within a few centuries.

Protestant Reformation is pretty much how Britain ended up with Dutch king William of Orange and the German Hanover Georgian dynasty. Anyone but Catholics was the rules for succession for a few centuries.

A lot of British monarchs aren't really all that English/Scottish/Welsh.

We also had Danish King Cnut who was king of England, Denmark and Norway.