Massive Civil War Spoilers from Amazon (click at own risk)

[Fading]

Wow Stillanerd, I don't know if it'll happen that way but good guess either way.

I hope it doesn't happen that way, but I can see it and it makes a lot of sense. 'Cap' dies, Wolverine doesn't buy it and sets out to find the truth (hence denial). The New Avengers are ticked at Mighty for 'Cap's' death while Mighty see NA as outlaws still (anger). Possibly the real Rogers makes some bargain to get out (bargain). Spiderman still thinks Rogers is dead and that Tony completely betrayed his trust to an extreme (Depression). Also there is a Civil War Confession book coming out, and that theory would fit in with Tony killing Rogers, and then confessing it was a clone all along.

The more I thought about this the more I was hoping it was a photoshop, but I'm not sure. Also Ronin might not be Cap like a lot of us thought. I was thinking of how we see Ronin fight Electra, and Daredevil has been slightly out of the picture somewhat. Ronin could be DD, also could be Hawkeye or countless others lol, just DD seems more along the line of someone who can handle a Katana.

Also there are pics of Cap's shield being bloody, full of bullet holes, and another in the official civil war thread of a bloody glove of Cap laying on a newspaper saying "Dreams dead". I will say that even if I hate the thought of the outcome, this one is fun to guess at.

 

[supermarvelman]

Oh yea I seen that.

 

[supermarvelman]

Wow Stillanerd, I don't know if it'll happen that way but good guess either way.

I hope it doesn't happen that way, but I can see it and it makes a lot of sense. 'Cap' dies, Wolverine doesn't buy it and sets out to find the truth (hence denial). The New Avengers are ticked at Mighty for 'Cap's' death while Mighty see NA as outlaws still (anger). Possibly the real Rogers makes some bargain to get out (bargain). Spiderman still thinks Rogers is dead and that Tony completely betrayed his trust to an extreme (Depression). Also there is a Civil War Confession book coming out, and that theory would fit in with Tony killing Rogers, and then confessing it was a clone all along.

The more I thought about this the more I was hoping it was a photoshop, but I'm not sure. Also Ronin might not be Cap like a lot of us thought. I was thinking of how we see Ronin fight Electra, and Daredevil has been slightly out of the picture somewhat. Ronin could be DD, also could be Hawkeye or countless others lol, just DD seems more along the line of someone who can handle a Katana.

Also there are pics of Cap's shield being bloody, full of bullet holes, and another in the official civil war thread of a bloody glove of Cap laying on a newspaper saying "Dreams dead". I will say that even if I hate the thought of the outcome, this one is fun to guess at.

If Cap isnt Ronin, that I'd say DareDevil is Ronin. I still think its Cap, I dont think that a clone dies, I think Cap fakes his death plain and simple, If Cap isnt Ronin I could see Cap playing the role of Nick Fury, like how Fury has been in the background of Civil War this whole time.

 

[Fading]

If Cap isnt Ronin, that I'd say DareDevil is Ronin. I still think its Cap, I dont think that a clone dies, I think Cap fakes his death plain and simple.

Ya, honestly I don't fully know where I stand atm. So far almost everything in CW has been an easy guess, from it not being the real Thor, to Punisher being the ski masked guy. This time tho it seems like they are keeping a good wrap on it, and possibly giving false information to trick us up. I can understand wanting to keep the ending secret.

The only thing tho is there is a CW book titled Confession coming out. If this is a fake, then what's the confession at the end of CW that involves Cap and Iron Man?

 

[stillanerd]

If Cap isnt Ronin, that I'd say DareDevil is Ronin. I still think its Cap, I dont think that a clone dies, I think Cap fakes his death plain and simple, If Cap isnt Ronin I could see Cap playing the role of Nick Fury, like how Fury has been in the background of Civil War this whole time.

The other alternative to Ronin is that it's Clint Barton. After all, why devote a whole issue of New Avengers to him if Bendis didn't have future plans for him? He's also, like Cap, had other identities. What's more, one he was also trained by the Swordsman, so I assume he would know how to use a sword as well as a bow and arrow.

 

[Apprentice]

As I said above,

Spoiler

Tony

is definitely the man in the armour after Civil War - at least in

Spoiler

Mighty Avengers. Unless Cap dyes his hair black and grows a beard, that is.

 

[stillanerd]

Well, it's confirmed that

Spoiler

Tony is the man behind the armour, at least in Mighty Avengers

. Just seen a scan in another thread that proves it.

You have a link?

 

[hippy fascist]

If Cap isnt Ronin, that I'd say DareDevil is Ronin. I still think its Cap, I dont think that a clone dies, I think Cap fakes his death plain and simple, If Cap isnt Ronin I could see Cap playing the role of Nick Fury, like how Fury has been in the background of Civil War this whole time.

The only problem with that was the fake out on the original ronin pointed to daredevil. The reaction wouldn't be that good considering that this is already rehashing an old concept.

Plus Joey Q's comments about hawkeye fans loving bendis by the end of 2007 would suggest it's gonna be clint

 

[Apprentice]

You have a link?

Thank you, Red X.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262761&page=3

Post #60.

 

[supermarvelman]

Ya, honestly I don't fully know where I stand atm. So far almost everything in CW has been an easy guess, from it not being the real Thor, to Punisher being the ski masked guy. This time tho it seems like they are keeping a good wrap on it, and possibly giving false information to trick us up. I can understand wanting to keep the ending secret.

The only thing tho is there is a CW book titled Confession coming out. If this is a fake, then what's the confession at the end of CW that involves Cap and Iron Man?

The confession will be that Tony halped Cap to fake his death. Tony realizes how much of a dick he's been and also realizes that the government will keep hiting the resistance hard until Cap is either in custody and dead. Cap will realize that faking his death wouldn't be losing the war, but that it would help take some pressure off the resistance if he was presumed dead. Tony leading the pro-regs, leading shield, and basically being a dbl agent for the New Avengers.

 

[supermarvelman]

The only problem with that was the fake out on the original ronin pointed to daredevil. The reaction wouldn't be that good considering that this is already rehashing an old concept.

Plus Joey Q's comments about hawkeye fans loving bendis by the end of 2007 would suggest it's gonna be clint

I dont think they care what kind of reaction they get, as long as they get a reaction thats enough. That Hawkeye comment does leave me guessing though, why would fans be happy that Hawkeye becomes Ronin?

1)Cap - 70%
2)Devil - 20%
3)Hawk - 10%

Thats my order of who I think Ronin is.

 

[stillanerd]

Thank you, Red X.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262761&page=3

Post #60.

Okay, who is to say there can't be two people who are Iron Man? It's certainly happened before. (Tony Stark and Jim Rhodes anyone?) Besides the theory is (and this is only theory, not proof mind you) that Iron Man was Tony Stark AND Steve Rogers all this time, and that Tony Stark was the public face while Steve Rogers was the fill-in. Same thing here. Tony Stark, from time to time, can be in the Iron Man armor to maintain the idea that he alone is Iron Man but have another (Steve Rogers) act for him from time to time and not tell the other members of the Mighty Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D. or anyone else about it.

 

[wobbly]

I really can't see how this ret-con could possibly be workable...Stark's been literally seen in the armor on panel so many times it's completely ridiculous to now up and say it was never him at all...Lord, even in the current ret-con that is the Illuminati we've seen Stark pulled out of his armor by Skrulls already.

Christ, I've seen plenty of 'Everything you thought was a lie' storylines but that really would be taking the p#ss.

Not saying that there might not be something in this clone of cap idea with one of them (presumably the real one) dying*, but in regards to the Amazon synopsis...Nah, some major yanking of chains going on there methinks.

*If the real cap dies but there is somehow a clone still alive this would explain all this grief business (why mourn the copy?) and that clone could carry on in the Captain America book itself at least until the real cap is ressurrected...which would be so inevitably predictable that's another reason to think this cant possibly be true....I hope...

 

[wobbly]

Okay, who is to say there can't be two people who are Iron Man? It's certainly happened before. (Tony Stark and Jim Rhodes anyone?) Besides the theory is (and this is only theory, not proof mind you) that Iron Man was Tony Stark AND Steve Rogers all this time, and that Tony Stark was the public face while Steve Rogers was the fill-in. Same thing here. Tony Stark, from time to time, can be in the Iron Man armor to maintain the idea that he alone is Iron Man but have another (Steve Rogers) act for him from time to time and not tell the other members of the Mighty Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D. or anyone else about it.

Yes, Rhodes has also worn the armor but that is also where this ret-con falls down flat on it's lame @ss: When Tony hit the bottle why did Rhodes take over the armor when this Rogers/Iron Man could have? Where was this elusive Rogers/IM when Tony was paralysed or when his nervous system was taken over by an enemy?

So, I have to say no, all the prior sharing of the armor shows is that this ret-con just doesn't make a lick of sense however they may write it.

Seriously, I think the Amazon guy has seen this cover somewhere, or maybe manipped it themselves, and is either using or confusing one of the main twists in Bullet Points for that synopsis (that Rogers became Iron-man during WW2).

 

[supermarvelman]

Maybe the Amazon pic is just a variant cover to Bullet Points for the TPB.

 

[Tropico]

Like I said before; given the whole "beloved character's death", Wolverine's "denial" and Millar's tendency to pull $h!t out of thin air at the last minute, I think Nick Fury is a very good candidate. That way all of the titles after CW with Cap in it make sense.

The whole cracked helmet and "shot up" shield is a metaphor that it's a Pyhrric victory for both sides, IMO. Although, the whole Cap clone makes me think back to the blond clone we saw floating in a tank in one of the first issues.

 

[PhotoJones]

As I said above,

Spoiler

Tony

is definitely the man in the armour after Civil War - at least in

Spoiler

Mighty Avengers. Unless Cap dyes his hair black and grows a beard, that is.

i don't know why everyone keeps saying this...the ONLY time

Spoiler

tony as iron man

is shown, is in a FLASHBACK. you can tell it's clearly a flashback because

Spoiler

black widow's hair is different

than it is in the PRESENT.

 

[GOODT!MES]

We're all reading too much into this. maybe the cover just means that Tony Stark is to Americans post-civil war as Cap was to Americans during WW2. He's not ever shown wearing that gaudy-ass costume, anyway. I think it's symbolic as to Iron Man becoming the new "Captain America", not in name or costume, but in that Americans rally behind him.

Also, if DD is Ronin, what happens to his ongoing where he's still Daredevil? Nothing, that's what. It'll be either Clint, Cap, or someone we never even thought to suspect. Just like last time.

EDIT: That dude on the cover of Iron Man 17 looks asian. Maybe Mandarin? WW2 Cap wouldn't look that old even if he had never been frozen. He'd still be somewhat fortified for his age.

 

[stillanerd]

Maybe the Amazon pic is just a variant cover to Bullet Points for the TPB.

Good guess, but problem with that is, THIS is what Steve Rogers as Iron Man looks like in Bullet Points:

big difference from THIS I would say:

Yes, Rhodes has also worn the armor but that is also where this ret-con falls down flat on it's lame @ss: When Tony hit the bottle why did Rhodes take over the armor when this Rogers/Iron Man could have? Where was this elusive Rogers/IM when Tony was paralysed or when his nervous system was taken over by an enemy?

So, I have to say no, all the prior sharing of the armor shows is that this ret-con just doesn't make a lick of sense however they may write it.

Excellent point. Which is, if true, only adds to why this would be a stupid course of action by Marvel. Then again, look at how well Marvel has honored continuity as of late. These were the same guys that retconned it so that there was a secret cabal between Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Xavier, Namor, Dr. Strange, and Black Bolt for years, even though no such evidence of a cabal existed prior to this. The same bunch who also revealed that Iron Man had Thor's DNA on file ever since the founding of the Avengers. And lets not forget (although try as hard as we might) [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] shall we?

EDIT: That dude on the cover of Iron Man 17 looks asian. Maybe Mandarin? WW2 Cap wouldn't look that old even if he had never been frozen. He'd still be somewhat fortified for his age.

That guy does look like the Mandrian, doesn't he? However, if WW2 Cap was never frozen and had been a prisoner in a Soveit gulag for fifty years, he certainly wouldn't look all that great after being released.

 

[wobbly]

Good guess, but problem with that is, THIS is what Steve Rogers as Iron Man looks like in Bullet Points:

big difference from THIS I would say:

Excellent point. Which is, if true, only adds to why this would be a stupid course of action by Marvel. Then again, look at how well Marvel has honored continuity as of late. These were the same guys that retconned it so that there was a secret cabal between Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Xavier, Namor, Dr. Strange, and Black Bolt for years, even though no such evidence of a cabal existed prior to this. The same bunch who also revealed that Iron Man had Thor's DNA on file ever since the founding of the Avengers. And lets not forget (although try as hard as we might) [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] shall we?



That guy does look like the Mandrian, doesn't he? However, if WW2 Cap was never frozen and had been a prisoner in a Soveit gulag for fifty years, he certainly wouldn't look all that great after being released.

Cap stay imprisoned for fifty years? He'd have escaped long before that, dammit!! (and haven't they just done a variation on this with Bucky and the Winter Soldier anyways?)

Besides, Id expect a reveal like that to turn up in Captain America's title, not Iron-Man. If the old guy is anyone already known my guess would be Mandarin.

On the armor's designs, agreed. The second armor is basically just a re-colored version of the current one so I can't see that pic having anything to do with Bullet Points at all.

 

[The Comedian]

I'm leaning towards a Cap clone (Like "Clor") in the Iron Man suit.

 

[Fading]

Like I said before; given the whole "beloved character's death", Wolverine's "denial" and Millar's tendency to pull $h!t out of thin air at the last minute, I think Nick Fury is a very good candidate. That way all of the titles after CW with Cap in it make sense.

The whole cracked helmet and "shot up" shield is a metaphor that it's a Pyhrric victory for both sides, IMO. Although, the whole Cap clone makes me think back to the blond clone we saw floating in a tank in one of the first issues.

Wow, another good point. The confession could be that Nick Fury is already dead. It would explain his absence, and Wolverine knows him well enough to go into denial. Only prob is would Spiderman get depressed over him dieing?

 

[supermarvelman]

Good guess, but problem with that is, THIS is what Steve Rogers as Iron Man looks like in Bullet Points:

big difference from THIS I would say:

Excellent point. Which is, if true, only adds to why this would be a stupid course of action by Marvel. Then again, look at how well Marvel has honored continuity as of late. These were the same guys that retconned it so that there was a secret cabal between Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Xavier, Namor, Dr. Strange, and Black Bolt for years, even though no such evidence of a cabal existed prior to this. The same bunch who also revealed that Iron Man had Thor's DNA on file ever since the founding of the Avengers. And lets not forget (although try as hard as we might) [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] shall we?



That guy does look like the Mandrian, doesn't he? However, if WW2 Cap was never frozen and had been a prisoner in a Soveit gulag for fifty years, he certainly wouldn't look all that great after being released.

Well the story isnt over yet.

 

[supermarvelman]

We're all reading too much into this. maybe the cover just means that Tony Stark is to Americans post-civil war as Cap was to Americans during WW2. He's not ever shown wearing that gaudy-ass costume, anyway. I think it's symbolic as to Iron Man becoming the new "Captain America", not in name or costume, but in that Americans rally behind him.

Also, if DD is Ronin, what happens to his ongoing where he's still Daredevil? Nothing, that's what. It'll be either Clint, Cap, or someone we never even thought to suspect. Just like last time.

EDIT: That dude on the cover of Iron Man 17 looks asian. Maybe Mandarin? WW2 Cap wouldn't look that old even if he had never been frozen. He'd still be somewhat fortified for his age.

Nice theory.

 

[Red]

i don't know why everyone keeps saying this...the ONLY time

Spoiler

tony as iron man

is shown, is in a FLASHBACK. you can tell it's clearly a flashback because

Spoiler

black widow's hair is different

than it is in the PRESENT.

It's not a flashback. You're grasping at straws, Tony survives CW.