MCU Fantastic Four - Part 1

Discussion in 'Marvel Films' started by Thread Manager, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    I would loathe it. Not everything cool in Marvel needs to be given to Iron Man. Let Doom actually be an FF villain. Don't pawn him off to the Avengers just because Stark! I want Doom and Reed to be rivals and former friends. The FF help make Doom what he is. USE IT!!!!

    Making Doom basically an Avengers villain and limiting his FF ties would make me care far less about seeing him in the MCU. I want to see Doom as a proper FF villain before they start branching him out. Unless it is a cameo or something small. But starting him as an Iron Man villain? Crap.
     
    #1851 Spider-Fan, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  2. Damkac

    Damkac Registered

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    Maybe Doom could debut in Dr Strange movie?
     
  3. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    I'd rather see characters like Mephisto or Nightmare in a Dr. Strange movie. I guess if they based it around the Doom's mother is trapped in Mephisto's realm idea it could work, but that seems like a Dr. Strange 3 to me. I would assume the FF would be out before Dr. Strange 3.
     
  4. Dark Raven

    Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    I don't want to do away with them knowing each other in college. But I don't want their origin tied together like any of the previous Fox movies where they became their respective super selves at the same time.

    Doom can know and even be enemies with Reed before. But the public's perception of Doom has made him far less of a formidable villain, and maybe they don't even think he's cool.

    At least having him debut in a big villain way to fight Iron Man (he can cameo in other movies before) can help re-establish him in the public's eyes. But Doom can even mention how Stark is no intellectual match for either himself or even Reed Richards.
     
  5. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    Well, that part I can agree with. Doom should come into the story of the FF fully formed as ruler of Latveria, with his armor, doombots, etc. and all that should be unrelated to how the FF got their powers. But keep that backstory!!!!

    And don't throw him in an Iron Man movie before he is in a FF one :o
     
  6. Dark Raven

    Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    Think of it like if you'd never watched the first Thor movie, but you just saw Cap fight Loki in Avengers. Cap had no idea who he was, nor that he was a Thor villain. However, that didn't negate his status as a Thor villain. Then if you went back and watched Thor, you'd realise he's actually Thor's enemy, not Cap's.

    It's not that Doom would be an Iron Man villain first. It's that the audience might see that fight first, but then later see how Doom is actually the arch enemy of the FF. In fact, it would be cool if several different heroes encountered Doom as an adversary in their own movies, all separately, without knowing that he is first and foremost an FF villain.

    It would be a bit like that scene in the Three Musketeers where D'Artagnan gets into an argument with each of the Musketeers separately (despite actually wanting to join them), and they all challenge him to a duel. None of them realise that they're all going to fight the same "enemy" until he shows up for the first duel and the others are standing by.

    By having Doom fight different heroes separately, it would help establish him as the premiere villain in the MCU who is everyone's villain.
     
  7. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    By having Doom in an Iron Man movie before he is in anything else, you're making him an Iron Man villain. That's the association you're making because it is all about first impressions. Regardless if I saw Thor or not before Avengers, Loki was a Thor villain first. He appeared first in a Thor movie. They didn't toss Loki in a Captain America film and then start using him in Thor films. That's a backwards way of doing it.. The audience will perceive him as an Iron Man villain from then onward if he is in that first as the primary villain. The D'Artagnan example is poor because that is the same movie and all those scenes are basically back to back. It's part of the joke.
     
  8. HBarnill

    HBarnill Registered

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    It just dawned on me: People are always so happy when the F4 are involved in anything. They were happy when the comic came back but are those same people buying them? It went away the first time because of poor sales. Then again when MCU became a thing.

    I'm just wondering if there is a general love for the IP without actually any enthusiasm to keep up with it. Do we just like them for their symbolic value and not because of who they actually are? Are they outdated?

    Say what you will about how people love Superman and how we can’t get him right but Superman was made at a time people would throw anything on the wall and see if it sticks. A virtually invincible hero? That was amazing at the time but can be tricky to be compelling. It takes great skill to do that, and the ‘78 movie and DCAU succeeded. S*ng*r tried to replicate that Donner feeling and failed while Snyder tried to deconstruct him and failed. Superman is at his best when you see what is fundamentally wrong with him and fix that for the sake of your story while still embracing what he was meant to be.

    The F4 is even more tricky because at their core, they’re more world-builders than actual characters. We got Galactus and the Surfer, Black Panther and Wakanda, etc, but what makes them appealing? Arguably the only character who’s made a huge change after all these years is Sue, but she’s still boring as tar.
     
  9. MbJ

    MbJ Registered

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    Them going away due to poor sales was the official party line, but it was very obviously more to do with the idiotic embargo Marvel was doing at the time (see also: the makers of the Marvel Heroes RPG saying they could no longer sell FF costumes and would be pulling those characters from the game, or Doctor Doom and Super-Skrull’s conspicuous absence from the last Marvel vs Capcom game).

    You are correct though that the FF have always had a hard time maintaining relevance for years, though. But all it takes to change that is one really good movie.
     
  10. Crimz

    Crimz Registered

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    [​IMG]

    You know why she comes across that way? Because Marvel does nothing with her. When you read FF they often treat her like a supporting character instead of one of the main characters. The last time she had a story arc focused on her was in the 80s/90s. Around 30 years ago....
    That's why I want an MCU FF film to give her a more active role. Not just the girlfriend/wife who tags along for no reason. It will also change comics as Marvel loves synergy. The character has been around for over 50 years yet still has barely any development, proof of this can be seen in this thread when casting her. The only description people look for is blonde and nice.

    In my opinion the biggest problem with the team is the constant emulation of the wrong aspects of the Lee/Kirby run. So many comic book runs just repeat old stories and villains, the problem was stagnation. When it comes to film it's not utilizing their most interesting aspect which is that they are superpowered adventurers. They should be going to new places, seeing new things. Making them another bog-standard crime-fighting team is a disservice and waste.
    Just look at the Fox films, they never went anywhere. The original two had 90% of the film in the Baxter Building, and the 2015 reboot had them in the most boring military base. You can't say the concept doesn't work when no has actually put it to film yet.
     
    #1860 Crimz, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  11. Willie Lumpkin

    Willie Lumpkin Trophy Husband

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    The characters are iconic and loved. But the products need to be high quality to earn sales. I'm as die-hard an FF fan as you'll find, but I'm not going to buy a comic book if I don't like the art and writing. And in terms of your final paragraph, that's all about the talent of the creative team. There's plenty of raw material there for a talented writer (of either comic books or film) to create great stories, but they're not just inherently good. The writer needs to bring the best elements out of them.
     
  12. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    People were making this same argument about Captain America. That he is no longer relevant. Heck, the Honest Trailers for Avengers had a line "Captain America, no one's favorite Avenger!!!" This all changed with Captain America: The Winter Soldier. After that, Evans became second only to Downey. So yeah, 1 amazing FF film would change everything.
     
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  13. Silvermoth

    Silvermoth Avenger

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    Yeah and people said it about Wonder Woman too. That she hasn’t had a consistent run in ages. Fantastic four will be fine as long as the movie is quality
     
  14. Darkprime

    Darkprime Registered

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    So do we know who owned the FF game rights before Marvel? I'm assuming Fox? If the rights have just now returned to marvel games hopefully it means the deal is done and theyre just waiting to announce it.
     
  15. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

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    I think Marvel always had their game rights. The FF were in both Marvel Ultimate Alliance games. Them being absent from games I believe was a choice, not a rights issue. But I could be wrong.
     
  16. MbJ

    MbJ Registered

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    Marvel always had the rights to the FF in games. Them and the X-Men being absent was just Marvel being petty.
     
  17. Gamma Goliath

    Gamma Goliath Engine of Destruction

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    Didnt Activision own the game to a few characters, they had to have owned spiderman and a few others? I remember Vivendi studios had hulk, and that why he wasnt playable in the original ultimate alliance until he got added as DLC. I remember when marvel declared a few years ago they were gathering up their properties so they could start putting in the effort to make AAA games.
     
  18. MbJ

    MbJ Registered

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    The FF were pretty frequent fixtures in Marvel’s video games until 2015, when the embargo began. Prior to that, they were present in most of the big Marvel Universe games of the last decade. The FF were playable in both Ultimate Alliance games, Doctor Doom and the Super-Skrull were playable in Marvel vs Capcom 3, and the FF and their various baddies and supporting players showed up in the first Lego Marvel Super Heroes and Marvel Heroes.

    That all changed starting around 2015. The FF and X-Men characters were not featured in Lego Marvel Super Heroes 2, Marvel Heroes announced the FF were being pulled out of the game and would no longer be sold, and X-Men and FF characters were all banned from Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite.
     
  19. Raiden

    Raiden Wakanda Forever

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    I think MCU is much more progressive when it comes to female characters and hopefully it means Sue Storm will be given much bigger role in FF movie than the comics. If they can make Shuri, Okoye, and Nakia amazing in the BP movie, it should be easier to do likewise in FF with Sue.
     
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  20. Dark Raven

    Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    Well it depends on what you mean by bigger. Do you mean more important?

    Because Ben Grimm and Johnny Storm also have big roles, and they're not the leaders of the team by any means. All of the Four have big roles already. And there's only 4 of them, so it's not that difficult to balance.

    If you're talking about making Sue almost intellectually Reed's equal, then that takes away what is unique about him. If she's also a scientist, that doesn't quite provide a contrast with Reed, because then she'd spend all her time in the lab with him. They'd also both see things from similar points of view, which would eliminate any of that conflict.

    Sue already is effectively the second in command of the team. Are you saying making her the leader instead? That's the only other way she can be bigger.
     
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  21. Crimz

    Crimz Registered

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    She doesn't need a bigger role than the others, just a role more than wrangling the unruly boys. It's a trope that often happens to the only girl of a team/family. The girl is just there to be a killjoy and has no other purpose. That shouldn't how they treat Sue on film or in comics. Sue should have a role outside of being the mother just like the others on her team do. The Marvel website even shows the difference with the character profiles. Sue is the only one without a skill outside of her powers. Reed has his genius intellect, Ben a trained pilot/astronaut, and the even mention Johnny's mechanical skills. To compensate they went more in depth with her powers, which has been the band-aid to try and solve the problem with comic Sue for years. Instead of actually developing the character they focus on her powers. That's not a character.

    Here's a question: How would you describe Sue's personality?

    The others are pretty easy to define and can be complex. The same can't be said for Sue and that should not carry over into the films.
     
  22. Dark Raven

    Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    That depends on which version from the comics they're going for.

    I'd want her to be similar to the Mark Waid/ Mike Wierringo version. She was fun and cool, but she was also maternal and responsible. I don't think you can completely get away from that because she had to almost become a mother figure even though she is just the big sister.

    But much older versions make her more of the damsel in distress who needs to stay behind. Obviously not that. And some versions make her way too maternal and, as you say, the killjoy. Don't want that either.

    I would say that, since we don't have it in the movies now, make her a little more like how Janet Van Dyne's Wasp was in the comics. I don't mean an airhead (as she was sometimes depicted). But more someone who is chirpy and fun, but also someone who could lead the Avengers as well. Make her enjoy being a superhero and using her sense of fun to be creative with her invisible constructs.

    I think Sue needs to be surprising, so that she might say or do things you wouldn't have thought she'd do as the maternal figure of the group. You'd be pleasantly surprised that she is cooler and more fun than you'd expect.

    If they took a small page out of the comics and connected her back to her slight celebrity roots, that could actually work for her. But don't make her an aspiring actress. Make her a journalist or TV presenter or someone connected to the media. That way she'd be charismatic and media friendly, and might encourage Reed to do the same. Since she has a fun but educational job, when she becomes a maternal figure she might not lose that sense of fun. But she'd also want to make things accessible to others, which is why she'd keep encouraging Reed to explain things in plain English so that everyone can understand.

    If, at the start, before Reed and Sue are engaged, she is a bit sceptical of his rocket ship (let's say it's a passenger ship), then maybe Reed could invite her on board to show her how safe it is for herself. And, being arrogant and overconfident, he could even invite her brother along. She thinks that she could get a good story, but doesn't realise she's about to become part of that story.

    Also, let her sometimes get into spats with the unruly boys herself.
     
  23. MbJ

    MbJ Registered

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    They already made Wasp a scientist in her own right in contrast to the original comics, where her contribution to the Silver Age Avengers seemed to be “She’s Giant-Man’s girlfriend.” Stan Lee had many talents, but writing women wasn’t one of them.

    I could see them similarly try to beef up Sue’s characterization.
     
  24. Iceman

    Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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    I'm pretty much expecting that. :up:

    Especially after how well audiences responded to the female characters in BP and Wonder Woman before that.
     
  25. Iceman

    Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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    I believe they chose to do hardly anything with F4 and X-Men in non-film media so as not to give free promotion to their rivals.
     

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