MCU: Phase II - Part 1

[DrCosmic]

I think you're confusing TIH being homogenous and lifeless for it being Dark, and using what you know about the character from the comics to fill on what was basically a routine chase film that ended with two poorly constructed CGI creatures beating the crap out of each other. Very little pathos.

The only Pyrrhic victory in the MCU so far is in Avengers. I think TIH failed to show even the same amount of loss and devastation in it's big fight than Thor did.

Yeah, there's some fill in the blank there, but I also think your'e confusing uncompelling darkness with lightness. Bad CGI doesn't change the fact that the movie starred an anti-hero with virtually no comedic characters who achieved no real victory whatsoever, who spent virtually all of the film in physical darkness. In fact, he seems to end the film turning into a monster with a sadistic grin on his face. Perhaps we can compare body counts, but if dark moments/themes and light moments/themes are on a scale, TIH tips to the dark much quicker than any other MCU film, if nothing else, because of it's dark palette and lack of comedy.

I think the Avengers was a bit darker than you're implying.

But what standard, virtually every bit of tension was played for laughs, even Coulson's death.

 

[Lorus]

It seems that people have very binary ideas about what constitutes tone. People tend to either assume that a tone is 'dark' which means everyone is always very somber, humour is a forbidden concept and everything is very important or the tone is the opposite and everybody is cracking jokes without a care in the world. The truth is that pretty much all films, including the MCU films aim to use both moments of levity and drama to contextualise each other.

I think that despite not being a 'dark' film by any real definition, the Avengers is not as light and breezy as people like to paint it. It's certainly far from the comedy some people would describe it as. Very few scenes are played entirely for laughs and I think Whedon punctuates his 'darker' moments very well throughout the film. I very much expect all the phase 2 films to follow in those footsteps, the issue will arise if the respective writers/directors are unable to balance the different elements.

As to Whedon's latest interview, I don't think it's very surprising. He's made it clear he wants the phase 2 films to be independent of Avengers 2 and vice versa. He'll always be there for creative input but I don't think he'll ever be the guy who makes the big decisions with regards to Thor 2 or Cap 2 etc.

But what standard, virtually every bit of tension was played for laughs, even Coulson's death.

I think this is the kind of generalisation that causes contention. Coulson's death for example is not just one moment which is consciously played for comedic effect, it and the consequences of it span different scenes with different effects. If I was to make an estimate, I'd say that the only thing that's related to Coulson's death that is comedic is the (apparently infamous) 'So that's what it does'. Everything else is played straight.

 

[Chewy]

Yeah, there's some fill in the blank there, but I also think your'e confusing uncompelling darkness with lightness. Bad CGI doesn't change the fact that the movie starred an anti-hero with virtually no comedic characters who achieved no real victory whatsoever, who spent virtually all of the film in physical darkness. In fact, he seems to end the film turning into a monster with a sadistic grin on his face. Perhaps we can compare body counts, but if dark moments/themes and light moments/themes are on a scale, TIH tips to the dark much quicker than any other MCU film, if nothing else, because of it's dark palette and lack of comedy.

Somber and joyless =/= dark themes. A pathetic, weak kid who just wants to matter but can't seem to is as dark a theme as "dude running from the government", if not moreso

Contrasting the darker moments with the lighter ones often makes the darker moments matter more to the audience.

 

[DrCosmic]

Somber and joyless =/= dark themes. A pathetic, weak kid who just wants to matter but can't seem to is as dark a theme as "dude running from the government", if not moreso

Contrasting the darker moments with the lighter ones often makes the darker moments matter more to the audience.

That's not a fair analysis, though. We can easily trivialize Cap by saying "a weak kid becomes uber and single handedly manhandles any army of Flash Gordon rejects" and better summarize Hulk as "Dude trying to escape his dark side fails and decides to embrace it." Again, I'm not saying the darkness mattered to the audience, but agreeing with you that it was there. Somberness and lack of joy do make dark themes darker, and certainly, being a monster is a darker theme than being a soldier or a god.

I think this is the kind of generalisation that causes contention. Coulson's death for example is not just one moment which is consciously played for comedic effect, it and the consequences of it span different scenes with different effects. If I was to make an estimate, I'd say that the only thing that's related to Coulson's death that is comedic is the (apparently infamous) 'So that's what it does'. Everything else is played straight.

That's true, but that kind gets at where the generalization comes from. The comedy comes at the height of tension. Which means for some people the tension is deflated. Loki's big confrontation with Hulk, lol. Helicarrier's going down, Cap's reaction, lol. Thor and Hulk resolve their differences, lol. So while yes the danger and darkness and tension was felt in smaller ways in different scenes, it continually got cut off at climactic moments, so for some, myself included, it felt like the entirety of the tension was just a build up to the punchline, like a joke about a sick dog. Yes, sick dogs are no laughing matter, but after somebody says "...get it, the dog has flees!" Then it dramatically curtails my ability to be sad or somber about the sick dog on any level. It's all just a joke then. The entire movie felt very very light to me, because most the "darkness" was funny.

I guess some others still felt that darkness, but even when Fury did the trading card thing, or IM hit Loki with 'his name is Phil' I was just waiting for the next punchline, because that's the anticipation the movie had built for me by that time. There were some segments, like Widow and Hulk that were very much in the vein of what I would expect at the end of the world. The film would have been perfect to me if more things had been played straight like that. Leave one subplot to deflate with balance with comedy and play the rest straight, not vice versa.

 

[Chewy]

Yes, sick dogs are no laughing matter, but after somebody says "...get it, the dog has flees!" Then it dramatically curtails my ability to be sad or somber about the sick dog on any level. It's all just a joke then. The entire movie felt very very light to me, because all the "darkness" was funny.

Um, don't really know what to say about that. A sick dog is sad whether someone jokes about it or not. Just as someone's death is affecting, regardless of their making light of it themselves.

 

[DrCosmic]

Not for fictional dogs and characters, at least, not for me. There's nothing sad about a pretend dog dying in a funny way.

Edit: To me, it's like when a character in a sketch on a comedy show dies. It's just a joke, no one's actually dying, their death is just there to make the joke funnier. Of course... if it's not funny, then it actually is sad, oddly enough.

 

[Chewy]

There is a huge, huge difference between someone making a joke about something and something being a joke. It's part of human nature to be glib. Context is everything; no one but Coulson himself made light of his death.

 

[terry78]

Whedon is a very droll writer. Always has been. He's not writing stuff to get a belly laugh, he's writing stuff to make you kind of smirk or say, "yeah, he knows." Dark comedy is one thing he definitely goes for.

 

[Mr. Dent]

just rumors.



i seriously do not forsee Dr. Strange appearing in thor 2

1) he'd probably no longer be a surgeon if he's Jane's friend
2) he does not have a film in phase II as of yet, so there's really no need to introduce him next year..... so soon before his solo film
3) if his origin, or powers are in Thor II it severely limits his solo film, in which the origin and power should truly take place. It's a decent story to carry a movie..
4) adding Dr. Strange to Thor not only limit's his movie, but totally takes away focus from all other Thor characters..

so right now.. take it with a tiny tiny tiny grain of salt, the only logical connection between thor and strange... is that Odin's vault does have the Orb of Agomotto

You're assuming that Strange will appear in a super-powered capacity. From the sounds of it Strange will be an ordinary doctor with a strong interest in the supernatural for the entirety of the film. They might set up the Eye of Agamotto being dropped on Earth at the end of the film, but Strange himself shouldn't take much of the spotlight from Thor. His role will basically be comparable to Dr. Selvik from the first film.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

You're assuming that Strange will appear in a super-powered capacity. From the sounds of it Strange will be an ordinary doctor with a strong interest in the supernatural for the entirety of the film. They might set up the Eye of Agamotto being dropped on Earth at the end of the film, but Strange himself shouldn't take much of the spotlight from Thor. His role will basically be comparable to Dr. Selvik from the first film.

the rumor, in which this whole Doctor Strange thing even started, specifically said that Dr Strange factored largely into thor 2, where he WOULD also get his powers...

the same rumor maker said punisher was also going to be in Cap 2.. so .. this is all miniscule grains of dust.

 

[Mr. Dent]

the rumor, in which this whole Doctor Strange thing even started, specifically said that Dr Strange factored largely into thor 2, where he WOULD also get his powers...

the same rumor maker said punisher was also going to be in Cap 2.. so .. this is all miniscule grains of dust.

I don't recall reading anything that specifically said Strange will get his powers only that he'd be introduced as a scientist.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't recall reading anything that specifically said Strange will get his powers only that he'd be introduced as a scientist.

then you didn't read the full thing. i don't have a link, but it was an apparent "big scoop" on many of marvel's upcoming movies... most seemed bogus

 

[Mr. Dent]

then you didn't read the full thing. i don't have a link, but it was an apparent "big scoop" on many of marvel's upcoming movies... most seemed bogus

No, the latest rumor about Strange being in Thor, which is what I'm assuming sparked this conversation, makes no reference to him having powers. Here's the source of the latest rumor which builds off of the playist's rumor, which also didn't mention strange having powers.

http://screenrant.com/thor-2-dr-strange/all/1/

 

[marcvader]

I don't know where you guys are getting the specifics of Dr. Strange's possible involvement. All I've read is that he may be in Thor 2 and nothing on the extent of the role if you can even call it that.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

The original rumor said that he was a colleague of Janes which led some to believe that he was a scientist rather than a surgeon. His involvment other than that is all fan speculation as far as I remember

 

[Chewy]

Honestly just leave Dr Strange for his own movie. Introducing him elsewhere just muddles up his own origin. That's for the characters who won't be getting their own films. This all reminds me of the rumor that Thor would be in Iron Man 2, and it was just his hammer at the end.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I don't really see the point in casting someone for Strange when they might not be onscreen again for 4 or 5 years tbh

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Whedon is a very droll writer. Always has been. He's not writing stuff to get a belly laugh, he's writing stuff to make you kind of smirk or say, "yeah, he knows." Dark comedy is one thing he definitely goes for.

I don't know about that. The Avengers had a lot of belly laughing moments in it.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Honestly just leave Dr Strange for his own movie. Introducing him elsewhere just muddles up his own origin. That's for the characters who won't be getting their own films. This all reminds me of the rumor that Thor would be in Iron Man 2, and it was just his hammer at the end.

I don't agree with this. I think introducing the heroes in their base forms (i.e. before they're "origins" so to speak) is a good way of at least establishing that the characters exist in the universe especially considering most of them won't have movies for another couple years at least. I also like the idea that Black Panther could appear in Hulk 2 as leader of a strike force team hired by Ross before his father is murdered.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't really see the point in casting someone for Strange when they might not be onscreen again for 4 or 5 years tbh

agrees, which is why im positive it's false news. he has no solo film for phase II so far

 

[Chewy]

I don't agree with this. I think introducing the heroes in their base forms (i.e. before they're "origins" so to speak) is a good way of at least establishing that the characters exist in the universe especially considering most of them won't have movies for another couple years at least. I also like the idea that Black Panther could appear in Hulk 2 as leader of a strike force team hired by Ross before his father is murdered.

But the characters don't "exist", not before their origins at least. Dr Strange is just a surgeon before he hurts his hands, I don't see how tying him into a Thor film does anything to further either his own arc or Thor's. It just waters down his own first encounter with the mystical forces in his eventual movie.

Also the desire to tie everything in before the fact is awful, it makes everything feel far more coincidental and tacky. Very Star Wars prequelsy.

 

[marcvader]

I don't agree with this. I think introducing the heroes in their base forms (i.e. before they're "origins" so to speak) is a good way of at least establishing that the characters exist in the universe especially considering most of them won't have movies for another couple years at least. I also like the idea that Black Panther could appear in Hulk 2 as leader of a strike force team hired by Ross before his father is murdered.

Nope, nope, nope, and nope. That's just not Tchala, read the comics.

 

[KangConquers]

But the characters don't "exist", not before their origins at least. Dr Strange is just a surgeon before he hurts his hands, I don't see how tying him into a Thor film does anything to further either his own arc or Thor's. It just waters down his own first encounter with the mystical forces in his eventual movie.

Also the desire to tie everything in before the fact is awful, it makes everything feel far more coincidental and tacky. Very Star Wars prequelsy.

Co-sign.

The other day, I read a post on another site about how maybe Starlord would be a friend of Stark, and I was like "WHY!?!?!?!" I'd find that incredibly annoying.

 

[spideymouse]

But the characters don't "exist", not before their origins at least. Dr Strange is just a surgeon before he hurts his hands, I don't see how tying him into a Thor film does anything to further either his own arc or Thor's. It just waters down his own first encounter with the mystical forces in his eventual movie.

Also the desire to tie everything in before the fact is awful, it makes everything feel far more coincidental and tacky. Very Star Wars prequelsy.

Co-sign.

The other day, I read a post on another site about how maybe Starlord would be a friend of Stark, and I was like "WHY!?!?!?!" I'd find that incredibly annoying.

So wait, you guys are not in favor of setting up SWORD/Carol Danvers at all in any movies before she becomes Ms. Marvel?

 

[KangConquers]

So wait, you guys are not in favor of setting up SWORD/Carol Danvers at all in any movies before she becomes Ms. Marvel?

That's fine, as long as the first time she encounters another Avenger, Black Widow doesn't go "Oh, Carol was my roommate in training camp" or some ****.