Marvel Films MCU X-Men - Part 4

[Catoti]

Here's the perfect, best way to do it. Make a statement.

NO
PLEASE
NO
I BEG YOU, PLEASE NO

sorry I just despise her with a burning passion
if she stays as x-23 though then whatever, just don't make her wolverine pretty plz

 

[Catoti]

Cap being willing to sacrifice everything for a friend he had a couple decades ago doesn't make much sense. Cap protecting someone he loves (romantically) by betraying his best friend has way more impact. I actually don't care about Stucky but it just makes more sense that way

Sorry, but reading this makes it sound like it's coming from someone who has never had a friend that you would die for (not saying you specifically, just the the point itself)

Because I can promise you, I would do ANYTHING to protect my best friend, nevermind that we're both girls. And I can assure you, I am painfully straight and she has a boyfriend. I call her a 'friend' but if she was in trouble, you bet I would take down an entire government for her. (obvsly joking but I do feel that way)

So no, cap sacrificing everything for his best friend who he grew up with and is the closest thing to family he had before the avengers because his parents were dead and who he thought had died because he couldn't save him in time ISN'T that much of a stretch.

 

[Catoti]

if the original Character was perceived as gay thats fine to play with them being gay or straight And see what stories you can tell, but if your changing someone like wolverine, captain america or spider-man to be gay then are you doing it because your adding something to the character or Because you just want the character to be gay? With comic-book characters that have decades of stories and a large fanbase who are use to seeing them a certain way its incredibly hard to just Change there sexual orientation because you want to be progressive. Marvel is not going to suddenly make dr strange gay because they want to be progressive.

Im a straight guy who is somewhat fat and I have never cared to be represented by superheroes on the big screen. Its made up superheroes you want to see jump from page to screen as you remember reading them.

I agree with this. Characters who are already gay/bi/not straight should be used instead of making an establish straight character gay because reasons, which is just weak character writing and creatively lazy imo.

 

[Prettyricky]

Saying nothing is an option you know.

Kind of like those screaming like babies for a gay superhero have the option too?

 

[Prettyricky]

I agree with this. Characters who are already gat/bi/not straight should be used instead of making an establish straight character gay because reasons, which is just weak character writing and creatively lazy imo.

Thats my main issue really with all this crying for representation. Same with there needing to be a female bond 007 for progressive reasons. Instead of piggybacking off of established successful characters and franchises create a new character that is bi or gay And Give them the same compelling story telling. Seriously create a new marvel hero who is gay and put the same effort behind Them that you would black panther.

 

[EnDz0n3]

There are more important things than who you **** when the story is about two men and straight people are ranking what's important.

What are you on about?
Are you assuming I’m straight? LMAO

 

[Marvel united]

Thats my main issue really with all this crying for representation. Same with there needing to be a female bond 007 for progressive reasons. Instead of piggybacking off of established successful characters and franchises create a new character that is bi or gay And Give them the same compelling story telling. Seriously create a new marvel hero who is gay and put the same effort behind Them that you would black panther.

That's not and never going to be how the market functions today. It's not as simple as "Just create new characters" -- and I think many use this disingenuous line of argument because they realize this.

The fact of the matter is, we don't live in 1965-1970 where the comic book & all it's inhabitants are still being established & the genre is still being defined. We are well past the point where completely new concepts of characters could still be introduced, gain immense popularity and not be stomped out by a franchise with a higher marquee value that it has accumulated over the last 50-70+ years being on top. Brands are what sell today, and a random LGBT character who has zero affiliation to an established brand that people know & care about will never gain traction because there is no room. These brands are firmly cemented in pop culture now. You can't just ignore the context of why things play out a certain way.

Now we do get new minority characters but usually in the form of legacy characters and that is because of the aforementioned reason. They use an established brand that everybody knows and loves to promote new characters, and some still have an issue with this and find a way to complain (See Riri Williams).

Last time I checked 007 was a title, not Bond himself. Bond isn't being made into a black woman, they are just exploring someone else having that mantle. And some still have an issue with it. Almost like, no matter what the filmmakers do or how they do it, to some -- any attempt at having diversity will always be "forced". There is no winning with some people.

And again, we're all debating this under the roof of a franchise that has prided itself for decades on social justice ideals. And the X-Men franchise has burrowed a lot of thematic material from the LGBTQ+ community's struggles.

But suddenly, when it comes time to represent the people who these stories are based, it's a problem. Almost like, social messages are only acceptable to some if the characters themselves don't reflect the reality of the issues & and who is being affected by them at the forefront. That makes sense for a reader in 1963 but not somebody living in 2024.

So Marvel Studios already has a built-in defense against the inevitable complaints

 

[Lip]

It's easy and safe to say now that "the characters who are gay in the movies should be the ones gay in the comics" when you know for a fact that 95% of the main and most important characters are straight. When you know the gay characters will be "Valkyries" with their 15 minutes of screentime while the straight characters will have 5 times more. When gay characters will be "Valkyries" with their sexuality slightly implied, while straight couples and romances explode everywhere. It's easy to claim for more inclusion when you know those minorities won't have the same space and importance than the other characters. It's super easy like that.

It's also very well worth mentioning that most of the LGBT characters in the comics weren't LGBT at first. They were established as LGBT later (aka ~changed~). If they can be ~changed~ in the comics like Bobby was, why can't they be changed in an adaptation? (keyword: adaptation).

Anyway, it's naive to think Marvel will simply embrace LGBT characters in lead roles right now. And it's because of that reluctance that exists. They haven't even openly embrace them as supporting characters.

When it comes to race, I do believe there will be change to adjust the X-Men to today's standards of diversity. Marvel/Disney has a lot of problems, but I don't see them bringing an 80s concept of diversity. So I do expect those changes from them. Ariel and MJ are already signs of that change. But when it comes to LGBT characters, they'll keep as "implied" as possible.

And by the way, before saying they do have characters to use and that "Marvel turn Z-Lists into A-Lists, so they can use less popular minority characters". Then good luck to you wishing Cecilia, Anole and Maggot lead roles in the X-Men franchise.

This conversation won't change my mind anyway, so I'm stopping here.

Now, @Marvel united and @Mad Ones , I was thinking about Emma recently and, if/when she joins the X-Men in the MCU, do you think it's essencial for her to be in a relationship with Scott, or do you think it can work without their relationship on screen?

 

[Lip]

And since we're talking about "not changing characters from the comics", let's (naively) hope they can embrace Wade's pansexuality, and finally show him with a non cis woman.

Let's see how comicbook fans would react to that.

 

[Fincher]

Personally, I don't look at changing source material as a matter of right or wrong. It isn't that movies shouldn't make changes in any inherent sense, or that they can only make changes according to some set of rules. It's that I sometimes don't like the changes, and, well, sometimes I don't understand why they're making the changes. Now I don't always get what I want with movies in general, so it doesn't surprise me if a change I don't want happens, but I still have my opinion on the subject and the right to express it, and that doesn't go away because a change happened for a reason. I can understand what a gay Batman would mean to some gay men (I mean, not everyone wants characters changed to represent them, so I can't all gay men) while still not wanting Batman to be gay, myself.

If the next James Bond were a woman, well, the owners of the franchise are free to make that decision, just as any potential audience member is free to decide whether they want to watch. I wouldn't be upset about it or anything because I haven't lacked for James Bond movies, but at the same time I wouldn't really care to watch because Bond being a man is too core of the significance of the character for me. As for making a black woman 007, I don't really like it. I mean, I know logically that they're not going to retire the number like he's a basketball player, but I don't feel like I really need to see some other character with that number. At the same time, this is where that not understanding the point aspect comes in. Is anyone going to watch a Nomi spinoff movie because her number is 007 instead of 008, out of brand loyalty to the number? Are black women going to derive satisfaction from there being a black woman who's 007 instead of 008? I just don't get it, but okay, whatever. Maybe there's a reason.

What I do know is that James Bond is the franchise for me, so either Nomi's appearance in No Time to Die or the marketing will have to gain my interest, because I'm not inherently interested in another agent in that world. Whether most other people will feel that way, I don't know. Filmmakers looking to increase representation in any of these properties will have to figure out how to do so without hurting their viewership too much, and no matter what they do some fans won't like it, and that's just reality on both sides. Some fans will have to get changes they don't like, and filmmakers will have to accept that some fans don't like the changes. There's no magic solution where everyone gets everything they want.

Speaking for myself in terms of the X-Men franchise, sometimes I'm just not going to care about changes because that aspect of the material doesn't mean anything to me. To the extent that I do care, well, changes are bound to happen, so I have to put things in perspective in terms of what I would prefer vs. what really matters to me. Some things are just not really worth making an issue out of. I'm not on a "never racebend anyone" bandwagon, but I do reserve the right to express when a particular change to a particular character doesn't work for me.

 

[Marvel united]

^^^

I'd love for the X-Men to be a part of this new initiative. Giving people who are marginalized by society heroes, that represent them. It just makes perfect sense for a contemporary reimagining of this property

It's easy and safe to say now that "the characters who are gay in the movies should be the ones gay in the comics" when you know for a fact that 95% of the main and most important characters are straight. When you know the gay characters will be "Valkyries" with their 15 minutes of screentime while the straight characters will have 5 times more. When gay characters will be "Valkyries" with their sexuality slightly implied, while straight couples and romances explode everywhere. It's easy to claim for more inclusion when you know those minorities won't have the same space and importance than the other characters. It's super easy like that.

It's also very well worth mentioning that most of the LGBT characters in the comics weren't LGBT at first. They were established as LGBT later (aka ~changed~). If they can be ~changed~ in the comics like Bobby was, why can't they be changed in an adaptation? (keyword: adaptation).

Anyway, it's naive to think Marvel will simply embrace LGBT characters in lead roles right now. And it's because of that reluctance that exists. They haven't even openly embrace them as supporting characters.

When it comes to race, I do believe there will be change to adjust the X-Men to today's standards of diversity. Marvel/Disney has a lot of problems, but I don't see them bringing an 80s concept of diversity. So I do expect those changes from them. Ariel and MJ are already signs of that change. But when it comes to LGBT characters, they'll keep as "implied" as possible.

And by the way, before saying they do have characters to use and that "Marvel turn Z-Lists into A-Lists, so they can use less popular minority characters". Then good luck to you wishing Cecilia, Anole and Maggot lead roles in the X-Men franchise.

This conversation won't change my mind anyway, so I'm stopping here.

Now, @Marvel united and @Mad Ones , I was thinking about Emma recently and, if/when she joins the X-Men in the MCU, do you think it's essencial for her to be in a relationship with Scott, or do you think it can work without their relationship on screen?

Precisely. And here's the real kicker -- LGBT characters were basically banned all throughout the 40s and the 90s. The comics code authority basically made it *impossible to have any type of LGBT representation unless it was implied. This is why Claremont was not allowed to make Kitty bisexual like he planned to do twice. There's a lot of context and wider disadvantages folks tend to ignore when it comes to these type of discussions. I'm hopeful that Eternals can open the door to meaningful representation and the X-Men can leap where the Eternals ran.


The thing is, you can't have your cake & eat it too. You either commit to diversity and have the obscure minority characters in lead roles - which will occupy the spaces of the name brand X-Men everybody wants to see or you update some of the barebones characters. I don't think Marvel will have problem with doing the latter at all and I think it's Inevitable as much as some will hate it.

Some changes I think could add some interesting layers and depth. Scott for instance. I could easily imagine being Native considering Alaska has a large First Nations population. Imagine Scott being separated from his tribe after the plane accident and ending up absorbed into the American foster system at a young age. It adds a whole new layer to his character and also serves as a deeper analogy to how the Government treats it's Native population.

Regarding Emma, I think a love triangle between Scott, Jean and Emma could be interesting to spice things up. I enjoyed how this was handled in Morrison's New X-Men, so I would like to see it at some point in time.

 

[psylockolussus]

diversity for the sake of diversity while forgetting about the story is a HUGE mistake.

diversity in itself isn't an issue, and there are more than enough original poc / minority characters they could use without gender swapping, race swapping or whatever else swapping characters and calling upon the wrath of fans (lol), all I ask is that with the diversity they have good, strong stories that show off just how cool and good those characters are.

eXactly. I just don't see how race bending famous X-Men yet ignoring and making eXcuses not to feature long time members right away such as Bishop and Psylocke are progressive. Marvel Studios adapting their beloved characters into the big screen that look nothing like their comic book counterpart is not progressive, and not letting other mutants who already joined the team in the comics appear in the films just because they ain't popular enough isn't either.

We want things to be progessive but you can't have it your way and eat your cake, please. As if using minority characters from the comics is taking away the spotlight from characters like Jean, Rogue, Iceman and Cyclops. Therefore they should racebend. So many eXcuses.

 

[Lip]

I'd love for the X-Men to be a part of this new initiative.

I'd love if every X-Men member represented a real world minority or an underrepresented and oppressed group. Race, sexuality, gender, religion, ethnicity, culture, mental health, disability, etc...

 

[Marvel united]

I'd love if every X-Men member represented a real world minority or an underrepresented and oppressed group. Race, sexuality, gender, religion, ethnicity, culture, mental health, disability, etc...

That's what I hope they go for, both for the characters and the crew.

Intersectionality is another element I'd love to see them address & the different variations of the same challenge they all face as mutants.

The X-Men are definitely ripe for a modern social reinvention

 

[TheVileOne]

I'd love if every X-Men member represented a real world minority or an underrepresented and oppressed group. Race, sexuality, gender, religion, ethnicity, culture, mental health, disability, etc...

So why not have Laura be Wolverine?

 

[Mad Ones]

What are you on about?
Are you assuming I’m straight? LMAO

The people making the films are straight and they control what is more important than what.

Now, @Marvel united and @Mad Ones , I was thinking about Emma recently and, if/when she joins the X-Men in the MCU, do you think it's essencial for her to be in a relationship with Scott, or do you think it can work without their relationship on screen?

I actually really don't think their relationship is essential. Emma's more interesting history and foundation are with characters like Kitty and Storm. The comics have actually done a great thing developing Emma from Kitty's worst nightmare to her biggest advocate. In contrast, Storm still hasn't forgiven Emma for swapping bodies. The relationship with Cyclops is what brought Emma into the X-men leadership, but the interesting stuff comes from who is ok with Emma being an X-man and who isn't, as well as Emma proving her redemption.

 

[TheVileOne]

The people making the films are straight and they control what is more important than what.



I actually really don't think their relationship is essential. Emma's more interesting history and foundation are with characters like Kitty and Storm. The comics have actually done a great thing developing Emma from Kitty's worst nightmare to her biggest advocate. In contrast, Storm still hasn't forgiven Emma for swapping bodies. The relationship with Cyclops is what brought Emma into the X-men leadership, but the interesting stuff comes from who is ok with Emma being an X-man and who isn't, as well as Emma proving her redemption.

Emma Frost was in Generation X for years before she joined the X-Men.

 

[Mad Ones]

Emma Frost was in Generation X for years before she joined the X-Men.

Yeah, so they could go that direction and develop her with Banshee, M, Jubilee, etc. I love Generation X so that could be awesome. I think it would be important to establish Emma as a teacher for some group of mutants adjacent to the X-men like Hellions, Gen X, or some kind of amalgamation. Emma as a competitive recruiter is a great way to introduce her in a New Mutants movie honestly.

 

[EnDz0n3]

The people making the films are straight and they control what is more important than what.

Well I’m not and I think it does an immense disservice to Cap to have him choose Bucky over Tony simply because he wants to bone one of them and not the other ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[psylockolussus]

I'd love if every X-Men member represented a real world minority or an underrepresented and oppressed group. Race, sexuality, gender, religion, ethnicity, culture, mental health, disability, etc...

So how are you gonna adapt the Wolverine, Cyclops, Rogue, Marvel Girl, Gambit, Iceman, Havok, Emma Frost, Shadowcat, the Beast, Polaris, Dazzler, Sage, Angel, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Banshee?

You already said you don't care about them looking nothing like their comicbook counterparts which should thrill all Marvel and X-Men fans if that were to happen, and the people that created them in the comics for dismissing their comic book look that has been used for decades and in other media. So how are you gonna cast those characters eXactly? @Marvel united feel free to chime in with your casting choices!

 

[Mad Ones]

Well I’m not and I think it does an immense disservice to Cap to have him choose Bucky over Tony simply because he wants to bone one of them and not the other ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You know there's more to queer relationships/romance than boning right?

 

[Mad Ones]

So how are you gonna adapt the Wolverine, Cyclops, Rogue, Marvel Girl, Gambit, Iceman, Havok, Emma Frost, Shadowcat, the Beast, Polaris, Dazzler, Sage, Angel, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Banshee?

You already said you don't care about them looking nothing like their comicbook counterparts which should thrill all Marvel and X-Men fans if that were to happen, and the people that created them in the comics for dismissing their comic book look that has been used for decades and in other media. So how are you gonna cast those characters eXactly? @Marvel united feel free to chime in with your casting choices!

Lip and Marvel United share their (excellent) casting choices all the time.

 

[psylockolussus]

Lip and Marvel United share their (excellent) casting choices all the time.

I didn't ask you though. You can just like their posts.

 

[EnDz0n3]

You know there's more to queer relationships/romance than boning right?

Please don’t try to mansplain queer relationships to me.

Besides you were the one who dismissed Cap’s love for Bucky in the MCU canon simply because they weren’t making googly eyes to each other.

For the record, I put my love for my family and friends on equal footing with my love for my boyfriend. You?

 

[Detective Conan]

I wouldn’t mind this movie being retconned into being part of the MCU(if it’s good that is). I thought the new trailer looked decent.