Marvel Films MCU X-Men - Part 4

[psylockolussus]

Me too.

 

[Herofan]

Some have been more comfortable with it in X-Men stories as long as it never went past the general "Equality for all! Discrimination = bad!" And never explored the inner workings and cogs that allow oppression to take hold.

I don't see how prejudice and discrimination, against anyone, are bad can't still make for pretty profound themes and social commentary or that directly dealing with real issues with every character would be more successful, that could seem a lot more like just preaching to the choir.

Ethnic origins? So what ethnicity informs Hank McCoy being white? None, zero, zilch.

Nightcrawler and Colossus though are rooted in being German and Russian respectively, though.

If the X-Men were created today with all social themes intact, what would they look like?

Definitely not the 05. But I think them looking like the combo of a Russian, German, Irishman and Canadian as well as Storm and Cyclops and Jean or of Storm, Cyclops, Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine and Jean happening today isn't really improbable and either would be fairly diverse even though not racially. You could make the team more diverse, a team created from scratch today probably would be a bit more (like with the former keep Thunderbird and Sunfire, maybe have them instead of Colossus or Wolverine and Banshee, rather than have them quickly leave, the latter have Forge or Thunderbird and Bishop instead of Gambit and Wolverine) but not certainly much more.

 

[Marvel united]

I don't see how prejudice and discrimination, against anyone, are bad can't still make for pretty profound themes and social commentary or that directly dealing with real issues with every character would be more successful, that could seem a lot more like just preaching to the choir.



Nightcrawler and Colossus though are rooted in being German and Russian respectively, though.



Definitely not the 05. But I think them looking like the combo of a Russian, German, Irishman and Canadian as well as Storm and Cyclops and Jean or of Storm, Cyclops, Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine and Jean happening today isn't really improbable and either would be fairly diverse even though not racially. You could make the team more diverse, a team created from scratch today probably would be a bit more (like with the former keep Thunderbird and Sunfire, maybe have them instead of Colossus or Wolverine and Banshee, rather than have them quickly leave, the latter have Forge or Thunderbird and Bishop instead of Gambit and Wolverine) but not certainly much more.

Yes, different variations of white was considered diverse by 1975's standards because some of those characters could have still faced xenophobia at that time, but definitely not today.

Look at modern X-Men stories with all of the new minority characters being created for the best example. Bendis' Uncanny X-Men for example

You talk about all these needless changes yet bring up the one thing about a character that an adaption could easily change as your smoking gun? Sure, sounds legit.

That seems like you have a bit of cognitive dissonance in seeing beyond your own viewpoint

No, it's being able to recognize and identify actual traits of a character. Forge being the Government's golden fleece & having him manufacture anti-mutant weapons under the tutelage of Valerie Cooper is an actual construct of his story. Could this be changed in an adaptation? Yes. But it's not comparable to a race change to Cyclops because Scott being white is not a story construct nor is it a character trait.

There is not one specific ideology X-Men has ever encompassed other than "other" which is not just sexuality and race based though this is what most seem to be peddling as the only minorities around her. Ones that are visual vs more nuanced one's like handicaps that characters like Rogue, Cyclops and even Storm (claustrophobia) have have without having to contrive them into the canon of the universe.

The X-Men are basically Marvel's catch-all 22 for anyone who feels unjustly alienated from mainstream society. They are a stand-in for any outcast or person who doesn't conform to society's definition of "normal". You are correct in saying that this doesn't boil down ONLY to racial and sexual minorities. The X-Men have been stand-ins for numerous marginalized or shunned identities from writer to writer & story to story, even ones as simple as a High-school wallflower who get picked on for not fitting into his social cliques-- I'm not disputing this. This is what they've been about since 1963.

But the bread and butter of this franchise - the meat; the absolute core of it, lies within the parallelism and analogy to the bigotry, discrimination and violent persecution by society. The X-Men franchise's dramatic and emotional gravitas comes from the experiences & struggles of minority communities. The X-Men became relevant when Chris Claremont firmly established the link between mutants and real-worldr minority groups, going deeper than just the "Outcast hated because he's different" which was largely was Lee/Kirby's X-Men were about. That was as much as they could say about the Civil rights issue at that time.

Where do you think people draw the Martin Luther King vs. Malcom X political analogy from? Writers and creative commentators establishing the link between real political activism & the X-Men have been used to highlight important social issues -- One example being the Legacy Virus as a blatant parallel to HIV/AIDS and how it swept through the LGBT community as many political officals turned a blind eye to their suffering. Sooo many X-Men stories derived from incidents or issues that are meant to directly parallel issues that affect minority communities.

Without the minority metaphor, the X-Men would have all just been mutant versions of Peter Parker who was also an outcast. No, what gives this franchise it's dramatic engine IS the coded subext of racial/sexual/xenophobic discrimination. That doesn't mean that's the "only type of minority", it just means that in the context of this franchise, a "mutant" is synonymous with "black" or "gay" in the most iconic, influential stories that define the X-Men. Chris Claremont's favorite X-Men story is God Loves, Man Kills because it, in his own words, epitomizes the X-Men in it's purest form.

And the X-Men are progressives who fight for social justice. That's what an "SJW" is in it's most literal, technical definition. Some modern X-Men stories even have Trump commentary in them (Claremont's return to the X-Men with Magneto: Black #1). It's the calling card of the X-Men.

The fact that you don't understand the irony of this statement is unfortunate. That is my point! People don't automatically want to see a movie just because it has someone with the same racial background or gender as them.

But I never said that people "automatically" want to see the movie. Context is important here too. As a black man, i've seen dozens of Tyler Perry movies where the characters look like me. Does that mean I'm falling head over heels to see every new Madea movie that drops in theaters? Absolutely not. But an African king & ruler over a sovereign nation set within the Marvel Cinematic Universe? You can bet I'm gonna be there.

Diversity IS a strength that contributes to wider appeal = more money. But having a diverse cast in a Jack Ass movie won't suddenly turn it into a billionaire dollar franchise. As I've said before, BRANDS are what sell today. Spider-Man being black and Captain America being black (two characters from highly successful franchises going on now) will mean more and produce bigger results than say, Larry Daler from 'Night At The Museum' being black.

And even then, name brands are not always a surefire, guarantee of success. If the movie looks uninteresting, boring, or uninspired, then nobody's showing up to see the movie. Terminator had female leads but the franchise was tired', everybody was sick of seeing the same story rehashed, albeit in a bland, mediocre way. We had just gotten Terminor Genisis 4 years before this movie came out and that undoubtedly contributed to the franchise fatigue in a major way.

Brands don't guarantee sucess, but pre-canned franchises guarantee the best chance at success. And when a movie is good, innovative - bolstering a diverse group of people, more will show up.

And another thing to take into account, minorities want to see themselves represented in more diverse roles and characters. Black Panther was an action blockbuster CBM in the most successful film franchise of all time, 'Crazy Rich Asians' was a romantic comedy drama film, 'Hustlers' was a dramatic heist film etc.

Sometimes people just enjoy characters even if they don't look like them.

No ****, haha. Otherwise I wouldn't be a comic book fan much less a consumer of mass media where 80% of characters portrayed don't look like me.

Because the X-Men have a catalog of characters that fit every niche.

You just aren't willing to see the merits of these characters because they don't fit into your narrative of this "everything must change to be relevant" mentality.

The X-Men have 10-15 main characters that are the LEADS and name brand characters, the ones you see on movie posters, lunch boxes and backpacks-- and of those 15- 5 are poc. When you break them down context by character, they aren't series mainstays (Forge, Sunfire) or they require set-up and justification by the story (Bishop). I know the lore, I've been reading the comics for 24 years, since I was 5 years old. I know who's who and why these characters aren't interchangeable. The X-Men had 5-6 signature minority characters sprinkled throughout the 4 decades of 1963 to 2000.

Only in Grant Morrison's run did new and more diverse students start to be introduced and most of the new signature characters introduced from 2001 to 2020 have been minority characters.

It is not just one-sided on this thought political points and any extreme points of view (or any strong political stances) have been ignored by moviegoers as of late. From Bombshell to Rambo underperforming because of the stances they have taken.

None of those films underperformed because of any type of "progressive" stance (because let's call it was it is, you mean progressive politics). I didn't even know a new Rambo movie was out until the week before it premiered. And the movie was bad but the biggest reason why it failed was because it wasn't needed. Nobody asked for another Rambo film but the filmmakers did not justify it's existence by making a good film

I think it is not just racebending that is the issue. Just feeling like movies are not an escape has been felt lately and moviegoers are not liking it. Especially with how heavy times are.

Who is going to see an X-Men movie to escape the times? The X-Men in best form, have always had commentary that socially relevent? You're in the wrong movie if what you're looking for is an escape from commentary on modern social issues.

Also to say that the last Star Wars was a resounding success Is disingenuous. It clearly underperformed due to fan backlash. We have yet to see if any will effect CM.

No it didn't. And their effect on Captain Marvel was (past tense) non-existent.

Also to put some random anecdotal articles when I actually have the minority breakdowns of most of these films at my disposal will not go well for you.

Statistics don't mean anything when they aren't broken down per capita. Black people overwhelmingly turned out for Black Panther yet they were still only 30% of the demographic because there are less black people than white people. That doesn't change the fact that they turned out in huge numbers and the movie had a great impact on the black communit which I've seen myself. Anecdotal experiences do matter because they are firsthand accounts

To your point though, of course people want to see themselves represented in films but to cut out every white character and change them to another race is not the way to boost morale either. There has to be some compromise here.

Nobody said to cut or change everybody who's white. All we're saying is that we want the X-Men to be representative of the people their stories are based on. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be any white characters, it just means we won't see a cast that is 70% straight, white people, or in Fox's case, 90% -- being the victims of racial hatred and persecution.

I'm hardly the first one to highlight this

The Curious Relationship of Race in X-Men: A Look at Black Mutants - Black Nerd Problems

What If the X-Men Were Black? « The Hooded Utilitarian


Who Gets To Be A Superhero? Race And Identity In Comics

Because you are saying it is! I am not reacting in a vacuum here. I am responding to you specifically who is giving me articles declaring how important it is that people have representation yet you are now saying my response to your claims is too eurocentric? You are making it a political statement by saying it is "necessary" for these changes to occur not me.

It doesn't have to be a political statement In of itself to have a more diverse cast. What I'm saying is that it comes with the territory of updating the X-Men for a new generation not unlike Homecoming updating Spider-Man's world to look like New York in 2017 and not 1962.

Like I said if Homecoming is the blueprint for character additions then count me out.

Welp..

(FYI -- Scott being Native, or Hank being south Asian or Bobby being Latino does not make them in name only. It changes only the most superficial aspect of them, which is their racial phenotype. But a racial phenotype is not an indicator of character. None of them are defined by their whiteness, they can still be the characters we all know and love with the same EXACT traits. They aren't culturally "white" or rather, European- like say, Moira or Banshee. They are generic white i.e the default.)

 

[rebellion]

at this point, some of yall must be trolling.
anyways, cant wait for feige to give us a faithful x-men adaptation. where, surely, they wont race/gender bend like crazy. and some people will just have to deal with that.

 

[WinchesterMcFly]

at this point, some of yall must be trolling.
anyways, cant wait for feige to give us a faithful x-men adaptation. where, surely, they wont race/gender bend like crazy. and some people will just have to deal with that.

Don't like it don't support it is all anyone can do if they dont like how things play out

 

[Bayne]

Nightcrawler and Colossus though are rooted in being German and Russian respectively, though.

Nightcrawler isn't even remotely rooted in being German. His main character traits are culturally american (loves Errol Flynn style pirate movies) and broadly international (catholicism). There's nothing specifically German about him beyond the fact that the writers occasionally toss out random German words (very often misspelled, and every now and then not even properly used at that). You could easily get the exact same effect with almost any nationality - as long as he spouts random foreign words every now and then it really doesn't matter if they're German or Swahili or whatever. And if you were a real stickler, you could easily have him come from, say, Namibia, where 32 percent of people still speak German or cast him as an African refugee living in Germany from a young age.

Also, Colussus was rooted primarily in Soviet Russia. Modern Russia doesn't really have much in common with a lot of his classic storytelling anymore.

 

[BoredGuy]

I expect a bit of race and gender-bending, doesn't bother me much
Though, I will say, comics being a visual medium, we do all expect some level of similarity between the characters we've read for years and what we see on screen, let's be honest. To see a very dark skinned wolverine or cyclops would be jarring, no doubt. But seeing a Native American Cyclops or something like that is not much of a visual change and probably wouldn't even upset the racists (they're too dumb to notice such a subtle change lol).

The big thing I don't want, which they did with Spidey's cast, is personality-bending. So if Native American Cyclops is also a cocky, rule-breaking badass, then that's a problem, not the skin tone.

 

[Iceman]

Or Wolverine a shrinking violet.

 

[Marvel united]

I expect a bit of race and gender-bending, doesn't bother me much
Though, I will say, comics being a visual medium, we do all expect some level of similarity between the characters we've read for years and what we see on screen, let's be honest. To see a very dark skinned wolverine or cyclops would be jarring, no doubt. But seeing a Native American Cyclops or something like that is not much of a visual change and probably wouldn't even upset the racists (they're too dumb to notice such a subtle change lol).

The big thing I don't want, which they did with Spidey's cast, is personality-bending. So if Native American Cyclops is also a cocky, rule-breaking badass, then that's a problem, not the skin tone.

This. The characterization is what matters and a Native Cyclops could still resemble Scott from the source material.

I don't see Marvel changing Logan. They might bump his birth date up from the late 1800s to early 1900s, though to account for modern day MCU. But I can see them establishing his history with Steve Rogers & Bucky Barnes

 

[rebellion]

Nightcrawler isn't even remotely rooted in being German. His main character traits are culturally american (loves Errol Flynn style pirate movies) and broadly international (catholicism). There's nothing specifically German about him beyond the fact that the writers occasionally toss out random German words (very often misspelled, and every now and then not even properly used at that). You could easily get the exact same effect with almost any nationality - as long as he spouts random foreign words every now and then it really doesn't matter if they're German or Swahili or whatever. And if you were a real stickler, you could easily have him come from, say, Namibia, where 32 percent of people still speak German or cast him as an African refugee living in Germany from a young age.

Also, Colussus was rooted primarily in Soviet Russia. Modern Russia doesn't really have much in common with a lot of his classic storytelling anymore.

so basically, other countries dont matter and dont need to be represented. wow, cool.
germans, and this might come as a bit of a shock, are humans like everyone else. kurt is german. his name is german. he speaks german. amen. he doesnt have to have a halo around his head that spells 'im german'. its who he is and it should be respected.
and piotr being russian doesnt matter cuz it was rooted in soviet russia? ha! like his storylines couldnt possibly be modified to reflect modern times. you know... kinda like gender/race?

 

[InCali]

I expect a bit of race and gender-bending, doesn't bother me much
Though, I will say, comics being a visual medium, we do all expect some level of similarity between the characters we've read for years and what we see on screen, let's be honest. To see a very dark skinned wolverine or cyclops would be jarring, no doubt. But seeing a Native American Cyclops or something like that is not much of a visual change and probably wouldn't even upset the racists (they're too dumb to notice such a subtle change lol).

The big thing I don't want, which they did with Spidey's cast, is personality-bending. So if Native American Cyclops is also a cocky, rule-breaking badass, then that's a problem, not the skin tone.

Even though I rather liked the 1st X movie, I really hated the portrayal of Cyclops. I wish they wouldn't do stuff like that. That kind of thing is the worst. If there wasn't some race bending, virtually everyone (at least the early ones who are most well known) would all be white (mostly dudes). It is sort of jarring to see someone who looks completely different (HT in F#@kt@$tic for example), but, still, it's understandable. That's how comics were....a bunch of white guys and a few women scattered around.

 

[MilkmanDan]

I would prefer Nightcrawler being German. Mostly because I like that he's quite possibly the only German character in popular culture that I know of who is not only one of the good guys, but who is also a funny, flirty, cool character.

 

[Fincher]

I loved The Gifted, and there was racial diversity there, and that wasn't by any means an issue. However, the one time a character on the show talked about having dealt with racism, I didn't like it and wanted to get back to the topic of mutants. That's more or less where I stand. I don't have a problem with people of color in these films, and I'm not generally bothered by racebending although there are a few characters I want to stay white, but I don't want them to start talking about discrimination toward other groups.

A lot of it's that I think it undercuts mutation's purpose as a representation of those themes to then bring up those issues directly, but I don't think it helps any that I am somewhat looking for escapism. Not in that the X-Men have nothing to do with real world issues, but in that they're filtered through something that doesn't really exist and that doesn't have to be dealt with outside of the movie. I mean, elves and dwarves not liking each other can be compared to real situations like Pakistan and India, but that doesn't mean I want a fantasy movie where the dwarves are Muslim and the elves are Hindu. There's something to be said about exploring ideas through the comfort of a fantasy/science fiction lens. If I wanted to watch issues with race or sexual orientation be explored directly, I can watch Dear White People or Boy Erased, those movies still exist. X-Men is the sci-fi equivalent of that.

 

[Bayne]

so basically, other countries dont matter and dont need to be represented. wow, cool.
germans, and this might come as a bit of a shock, are humans like everyone else. kurt is german. his name is german. he speaks german. amen. he doesnt have to have a halo around his head that spells 'im german'. its who he is and it should be respected.
and piotr being russian doesnt matter cuz it was rooted in soviet russia? ha! like his storylines couldnt possibly be modified to reflect modern times. you know... kinda like gender/race?

That's an utterly ridiculous response to that post. Nowhere did I say that Germany doesn't matter, I said that Nightcrawler specifically is not automatically wedded to Germany by anything in his characterisation. Which is the plain and simple truth, despite the 'german name' and the fact that he 'speaks german' (which he actually doesn't very well, since it's often all too clear that the writers have no clue when it comes to speaking German). Neither of those things are even unique to German people in the first place, let alone to ethnically white German people. And the language aspect was never used as anything more than generically shallow cultural spice to throw into a speech bubble now and then. It quite literally could be changed to a completely different language and have exactly the same effect on his characterisation.

Also, of course Piotr could be updated to be from modern Russia. The point is that he will, in fact, have to be updated one way or another. Going from a stereotypical cold war pov of the USSR to modern day Russia is already a huge update, so changing his backstory to some other country is by no means a larger upset to his characterisation than keeping him Russian would be. It could in fact keep him closer to his origins depending on how it was done. Keeping him Russian no matter what is not in any way 'better' or 'more faithful'. It's just one possible creative choice, and there are others that are also possible.

 

[Mad Ones]

Sunspot's and Cecilia Reyes' casting makes it hard to get excited for New Mutants. A romance between Dani and Rahne is a good place to take those characters since their "soul bond"/psychic link was so prominent in the comics. A "psychic rapport" between Cyclops and Jean is the height of romance but the sacredness of friendship must be preserved at all costs when the two characters are the same gender

A gay Cap would be a detriment to established continuity where Cap is romantically linked to Peggy Carter in previous movies.

Are you proposing that Steve “became” gay between First Avenger and Civil War? I’m so glad you’re not a writer on these movie.

Oh please. You were the one dismissing others’ opinion and saying that somehow brotherly love has less weight to romantic love but Ok.

 

[rebellion]

That's an utterly ridiculous response to that post. Nowhere did I say that Germany doesn't matter, I said that Nightcrawler specifically is not automatically wedded to Germany by anything in his characterisation. Which is the plain and simple truth, despite the 'german name' and the fact that he 'speaks german' (which he actually doesn't very well, since it's often all too clear that the writers have no clue when it comes to speaking German). Neither of those things are even unique to German people in the first place, let alone to ethnically white German people. And the language aspect was never used as anything more than generically shallow cultural spice to throw into a speech bubble now and then. It quite literally could be changed to a completely different language and have exactly the same effect on his characterisation.

Also, of course Piotr could be updated to be from modern Russia. The point is that he will, in fact, have to be updated one way or another. Going from a stereotypical cold war pov of the USSR to modern day Russia is already a huge update, so changing his backstory to some other country is by no means a larger upset to his characterisation than keeping him Russian would be. It could in fact keep him closer to his origins depending on how it was done. Keeping him Russian no matter what is not in any way 'better' or 'more faithful'. It's just one possible creative choice, and there are others that are also possible.

Lmao, so what is unique to german people? Russian people? They glow in the dark?
You come across as one of those "Nothing matters except things i think matter" people, and i have no time nor energy to argue with someone that far up their own you-know-what.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Sunspot's and Cecilia Reyes' casting makes it hard to get excited for New Mutants.

The casting was definitely a weird choice, for these two, considering all the other visuals Boone tried to copy from books including Sam wearing a cap, Mirage being hospital bedridden for part of the storyline, Rahne's shorter hairstyle among others. I'm having a hard time reading the name of the hospital, though it starts with an "M" like the comics.

A romance between Dani and Rahne is a good place to take those characters since their "soul bond"/psychic link was so prominent in the comics.

Actually looking forward to this part. The Mirage actress is also kind of weak. I hope they're better in the movie.

A "psychic rapport" between Cyclops and Jean is the height of romance but the sacredness of friendship must be preserved at all costs when the two characters are the same gender

So let's quit dancing around the issue here:
(1) What do you want them to do with all the films and TV shows and continuity that came out before Captain America: Civil War, where Steve and Bucky weren't gay? You clearly had no issues with the relationship until Civil War.
And more importantly:
(2) When did Cap (and Bucky) "become" gay?

 

[Lip]

anyways, cant wait for feige to give us a faithful x-men adaptation. where, surely, they wont race/gender bend like crazy. and some people will just have to deal with that.

 

[Marvel united]

​

I mean, between Feige saying the MCU X-Men will be "quite different" from what Fox did, and his VP (who is both Latina and LGBT) calling the X-Men name outdated --

I think some modernist changes are coming and not everyone will be onboard.

It's funny, I used to be in the same exact position as him when I first joined this board in 2017. I just wanted the comics (the 90s era specifically) adapted on the screen with minimal or no changes. But after the sucess of Black Panther, and the conversation it sparked within Hollywood about representation -- it just made me realize what the X-Men could represent for a modern audience in a contemporary reimagining of the franchise.

 

[Herofan]

Where do you think people draw the Martin Luther King vs. Malcom X political analogy from?

I think that dramatized conflict itself is dealing with social issues without trying to advance, fight for progressivism as a movement or ideology. It's both supporting a form of liberalism and opposing a more radical or revolutionary take thereof while also usually being sympathetic to the latter.

the X-Men are progressives who fight for social justice.

They fight against discrimination, intolerance, I think beyond that both the characters and stories have very different ideas of what is justice is, let alone how society should be.

Nobody said to cut or change everybody who's white. All we're saying is that we want the X-Men to be representative of the people their stories are based on. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be any white characters, it just means we won't see a cast that is 70% straight, white people, or in Fox's case, 90% -- being the victims of racial hatred and persecution.

Agreed the cast should be more diverse than that, I think most would also agree.

 

[Fincher]

I mean, between Feige saying the MCU X-Men will be "quite different" from what Fox did, and his VP (who is both Latina and LGBT) calling the X-Men name outdated --

I think some modernist changes are coming and not everyone will be onboard.

It's funny, I used to be in the same exact position as him when I first joined this board in 2017. I just wanted the comics (the 90s era specifically) adapted on the screen with minimal or no changes. But after the sucess of Black Panther, and the conversation it sparked within Hollywood about representation -- it just made me realize what the X-Men could represent for a modern audience in a contemporary reimagining of the franchise.

Changes can go in more than one direction. My concern is that they might pull away from / gloss over the discrimination aspect like they did some aspects of Spider-Man.

 

[Marvel united]

Changes can go in more than one direction. My concern is that they might pull away from / gloss over the discrimination aspect like they did some aspects of Spider-Man.

Some superficial aspects of Spider-Man i.e the suit, the characters etc and they modernized other elements i.e -- the school, May, Flash, the Bugle etc. But the core theme of responsibility and the duality of identities was kept intact, at least initially.

75% of the X-Men mythos is related/tied to mutant persecution/exploitation. The other 35% are cosmic elements like the Shi'ar, The Brood, Phalanx etc but the core conflict will always be "Fighting for a world that hates and fears them".

They can modernize and update that theme to contemporary forms of activism. For one, actually humanizing the X-Men and focusing on them as characters instead of a collection of paper thin traits (The OT/PT) -- so when they are discriminated against, the audience feels it the way they do. It's more impactful

And mutant discrimination does not always have to mean outright genocide (Fox). There are many ways you can tackle it that would be different from Fox but also relevent to our time. Look at Morrison's attempt to modernize the X-Men for example- everything that came before the Xorn/Magneto nonsense was great.

 

[Bayne]

Lmao, so what is unique to german people? Russian people? They glow in the dark?
You come across as one of those "Nothing matters except things i think matter" people, and i have no time nor energy to argue with someone that far up their own you-know-what.

So there is no difference between different national groups whatsoever except the language they speak? And that therefore means it's utterly imperative to never, ever change a fictional character from one nationality to another under any circumstances? That's quite the 'logical' argument right there.

Meanwhile, in the real world, while there obviously are millions of entirely unique Germans with unique characteristics - as there are of any nationality - and no single characteristic will ever accurately describe 100% of any group, life is still more complicated than just that. There are common German cultural trappings - stories, celebrities, holidays, history, etc - which Nightcrawler never relates to (because the writers don't know them). There are common German phrases and ways of speaking, which Nightcrawler never uses because the writers write him in English and then try to translate what they want to say into German (with varying levels of success). There are local and regional German communities that deeply color people's lives, which Nightcrawler doesn't have because his family is explicitly not German and usually not in Germany, he never keeps in touch with any German friends and even when he lived in Germany (which has always been in his past) he still didn't actually live in a German community at all, but a traveling circus.

When dealing with a fictional character who is fundamentally more changeable and in fact inevitably will change in ways that real people obviously don't, these kinds of things are the only way a writer has to communicate a character's close ties to a specific country or region. And Nightcrawler has none of them.

At the end of the day, Nightcrawler is my favorite X-man, my favorite Marvel character, my favorite superhero, and one of my favorite fictional characters in general. I've read everything I can get my hands on about him and will continue to do so, and I certainly am invested in his traditional presentation as well. But he is a fictional character and all fictional characters are subject to change, especially in adaptations. The key of a good adaptation is always to identify the most important core aspects of a character and keep those intact. For Nightcrawler, that means a kind, fun-loving, good and idealistic man who has had the fortitude to overcome a lifetime of being treated like a monster because he looks like one, who is extremely agile and has the power of teleportation.

Anything beyond that is a bonus. And whether that bonus is the simple nostalgia of a fully traditional Nightcrawler straight off the page or the unexpected exploration of an entirely new cultural background that's never been used in the pages of the X-men before or the exploration of obviously x-men significant concepts like how refugees are treated and what it's like for them trying to integrate into their host countries when they look so different, I will be absolutely happy for any version of Nightcrawler as long as those core characteristics are intact.

 

[rebellion]

So there is no difference between different national groups whatsoever except the language they speak? And that therefore means it's utterly imperative to never, ever change a fictional character from one nationality to another under any circumstances? That's quite the 'logical' argument right there.

Meanwhile, in the real world, while there obviously are millions of entirely unique Germans with unique characteristics - as there are of any nationality - and no single characteristic will ever accurately describe 100% of any group, life is still more complicated than just that. There are common German cultural trappings - stories, celebrities, holidays, history, etc - which Nightcrawler never relates to (because the writers don't know them). There are common German phrases and ways of speaking, which Nightcrawler never uses because the writers write him in English and then try to translate what they want to say into German (with varying levels of success). There are local and regional German communities that deeply color people's lives, which Nightcrawler doesn't have because his family is explicitly not German and usually not in Germany, he never keeps in touch with any German friends and even when he lived in Germany (which has always been in his past) he still didn't actually live in a German community at all, but a traveling circus.

When dealing with a fictional character who is fundamentally more changeable and in fact inevitably will change in ways that real people obviously don't, these kinds of things are the only way a writer has to communicate a character's close ties to a specific country or region. And Nightcrawler has none of them.

At the end of the day, Nightcrawler is my favorite X-man, my favorite Marvel character, my favorite superhero, and one of my favorite fictional characters in general. I've read everything I can get my hands on about him and will continue to do so, and I certainly am invested in his traditional presentation as well. But he is a fictional character and all fictional characters are subject to change, especially in adaptations. The key of a good adaptation is always to identify the most important core aspects of a character and keep those intact. For Nightcrawler, that means a kind, fun-loving, good and idealistic man who has had the fortitude to overcome a lifetime of being treated like a monster because he looks like one, who is extremely agile and has the power of teleportation.

Anything beyond that is a bonus. And whether that bonus is the simple nostalgia of a fully traditional Nightcrawler straight off the page or the unexpected exploration of an entirely new cultural background that's never been used in the pages of the X-men before or the exploration of obviously x-men significant concepts like how refugees are treated and what it's like for them trying to integrate into their host countries when they look so different, I will be absolutely happy for any version of Nightcrawler as long as those core characteristics are intact.

"I dont see it as something worth keeping, so we dont need it". Thats basically what youre saying (with 10 times more sentences than needed) but whatever.
Lets make all x men french, why not? As long their personalities are intact, who cares.

 

[rebellion]

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I mean, between Feige saying the MCU X-Men will be "quite different" from what Fox did, and his VP (who is both Latina and LGBT) calling the X-Men name outdated --

I think some modernist changes are coming and not everyone will be onboard.

It's funny, I used to be in the same exact position as him when I first joined this board in 2017. I just wanted the comics (the 90s era specifically) adapted on the screen with minimal or no changes. But after the sucess of Black Panther, and the conversation it sparked within Hollywood about representation -- it just made me realize what the X-Men could represent for a modern audience in a contemporary reimagining of the franchise.

His VP can say whatever but lets see what they actually do.
Also, Black Panther was a faithful adaptation of a great character. They took the existing character from the comics and elevated him. They can do that with so many of the lesser known x men. Im fully prepared, and welcome changes to some of the more known members. But the way its spoken about here, its like some people expect every member to be modified in a significant way, which i dont see happening.