My designs for future characters.

[Keyser Sushi]

I guess you then also saw the documentary and listen to the commentary on "Robin´s Reckoning" where they explained the reason why they entered into the storyline a time after batman and robin had an established relationship, because they didn´t want the young "comic-relief"-sidekick, which they wound up using when Tim Drake showed up.

That may be, but they still were smart enough to know that Robin had to start out as a kid; that he couldn't have begun his career at 18. Also, I know what they said, but it carries little weight when the first episode on Volume 1 has Robin making some of the worst puns in the history of human vocalization.

Also, if you read Robin 101, you would notice that I never made a case for a comic-relief sidekick. I want anything but. Why would a 13 year old boy have to be comic-relief?

Do yourself a favor and read my post. I think you'll find it interesting.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

But, okay, everybody; PEACE! This bickering is pointless and stupid...

No it's not. It's us sharing our different ideas and trying to bring each other around to a different way of thinking. See that line in my sig? The Joan Didion quote? You know why that's in my sig?

It's there because that's exactly why I enjoy these debates. Trying to share my point of view. I don't think that's ever pointless or stupid. If I did, I would not be a writer.

Why don't you tell me what your passion is, so I can call that pointless and stupid? Hrmm?

 

[Kaizer]

Why don't you tell me what your passion is, so I can call that pointless and stupid? Hrmm?

I didn´t criticise you in particular, but let´s just agree to disagree, alright?

Besides, I wouldn´t call it "sharing different ideas" etc. when you try to lecture people that you´re own ideas are fact...

That may be, but they still were smart enough to know that Robin had to start out as a kid; that he couldn't have begun his career at 18.

I´ll agree on that, I´d be perfectly fine with introducing Dick at a young age, but he shouldn´t don the costume before maturing, he could even go directly to nightwing (though I´m a bit unsure of that as it would screw up some of the most important batman-universe-continuity)...

 

[bdsproductions]

Hahaha.

tea,ice,cold.

 

[bdsproductions]

DAMN thats ugly.coudl work not ugly in a badly drawn way.

 

[bdsproductions]

just havin´ some fun with make-up n´ latex

yo,is that alternate universe two-face where Maroni threw iceing in his face?.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Lmao!

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I didn´t criticise you in particular, but let´s just agree to disagree, alright?

Why? That's no fun!

Besides, I wouldn´t call it "sharing different ideas" etc. when you try to lecture people that you´re own ideas are fact...

But that's the point! I'm here to convince you why I'm right. I can't do that if I even entertain the idea that you might be right. That would go against my entire purpose, wouldn't it?

Especially since I'm right and you're wrong.

By the way, your sentence above should read:

...when you try to lecture people that your own ideas are fact...

I´ll agree on that, I´d be perfectly fine with introducing Dick at a young age, but he shouldn´t don the costume before maturing, he could even go directly to nightwing (though I´m a bit unsure of that as it would screw up some of the most important batman-universe-continuity)...

Sorry, you're wrong. Robin wouldn't allow himself to be kept on a leash until he was 18. He'd run away and get himself killed. Batman HAS to let him fight. It's the only way to protect him. I love moral conundrums, don't you?

 

[trustyside-kick]

Sorry, you're wrong. Robin wouldn't allow himself to be kept on a leash until he was 18. He'd run away and get himself killed. Batman HAS to let him fight. It's the only way to protect him. I love moral conundrums, don't you?

Ya...I mean in DV Robin in rage kills the guy who got his parents killed and all even. He like beats the crap out of him with his stick and I think the guy's heart lets go? I will re-read DV to check. Something like that.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Ya...I mean in DV Robin in rage kills the guy who got his parents killed and all even. He like beats the crap out of him with his stick and I think the guy's heart lets go? I will re-read DV to check. Something like that.

That is as it should be. The point is that Robin is like Batman. Young Bruce Wayne would never have let ANYTHING stand between him and his mission. Why should Dick Grayson be any different?

Kaizer and others like him make the mistake of underestimating Dick Grayson. If you think Dick is a helpless kid then of course you don't want to see him fighting. If you accept that he is driven to revenge, you understand why there is no stopping him, and why Batman MUST train him.

 

[trustyside-kick]

That is as it should be. The point is that Robin is like Batman. Young Bruce Wayne would never have let ANYTHING stand between him and his mission. Why should Dick Grayson be any different?

Kaizer and others like him make the mistake of underestimating Dick Grayson. If you think Dick is a helpless kid then of course you don't want to see him fighting. If you accept that he is driven to revenge, you understand why there is no stopping him, and why Batman MUST train him.

. Damn skippy.

 

[spideyrunner]

looks like mr.freeze isnt it?? lol

 

[Kaizer]

Kaizer and others like him make the mistake of underestimating Dick Grayson. If you think Dick is a helpless kid then of course you don't want to see him fighting. If you accept that he is driven to revenge, you understand why there is no stopping him, and why Batman MUST train him.

I never said I underestimated him, I love all the Robins in the comic-world, I just don´t see Nolan or any other directors managing to pull off that young a child superhero-protagonist in a live-action movie and still stay in touch with the realistic style.. And of course, this will never happen either, at least as long as Nolan´s in charge. Of course I could´ve made a Robin-manip with him at the "correct" age, but, you know, I didn´t...

 

[Kaizer]

yo,is that alternate universe two-face where Maroni threw iceing in his face?.

Try making the same thing with a very limited supply of latex and only one color (red) yourself!

Better now?

Sorry, you're wrong. Robin wouldn't allow himself to be kept on a leash until he was 18. He'd run away and get himself killed. Batman HAS to let him fight. It's the only way to protect him. I love moral conundrums, don't you?

Ok, I´ll play your game; no, you´re wrong!

That is as it should be. The point is that Robin is like Batman. Young Bruce Wayne would never have let ANYTHING stand between him and his mission. Why should Dick Grayson be any different?

Bruce allowed himself to be trained for many years, he learned dicipline and would probably have taken his place as the "sidekick" of one of his masters if the position was proposed to him. This is something he would teach to Dick and Dick would accept his role as a sidekick, at least for a couple of years, say; training from 12 - 16 and then Robin from 16-19, then Nightwing from 19 and on.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Bruce allowed himself to be trained for many years, he learned dicipline and would probably have taken his place as the "sidekick" of one of his masters if the position was proposed to him. This is something he would teach to Dick and Dick would accept his role as a sidekick, at least for a couple of years, say; training from 12 - 16 and then Robin from 16-19, then Nightwing from 19 and on.

I can care less about when he puts on the Robin suit but should be like around 14-15...but I care about when he is introduced because there is a symoblic thing with it since he was the same age as Bruce when his parents were murdered. As well as the things he went through at that young age after it.

 

[Kaizer]

I can care less about when he puts on the Robin suit but should be like around 14-15...

So if it was around 20-25, you wouldn´t be too bothered, then, huh?

 

[trustyside-kick]

So if it was around 20-25, you wouldn´t be too bothered, then, huh?

No that would bother me. I should correct myself in what I said:

Have Dick Grayson introduced as an 8 or 9 year old. Not put the suit on until young teenager.

 

[Kaizer]

The biggest problem in this whole thing is that introducing Dick in a movie, from a film-storytelling point of view, he would have to don the Robin-suit by at least the end of the movie, to keep the general audience interested. Most people know the Robin Character, they don´t want to see too much Dick Grayson (the Bruce/Batman balance of Begins was near perfect...and remember, i´m talking about the general audience here).. This only proves further that Robin should never be introduced in a movie... A live-action TV-series (following the comics) on the other hand, would be a lot better.

 

[bdsproductions]

Try making the same thing with a very limited supply of latex and only one color (red) yourself!

Better now?.

yes i understand limatations.....it still looked like pink iceing.but i doubt i could do better.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Ok, I´ll play your game; no, you´re wrong!

You have to at least offer evidence as to why, though. Otherwise you're not playing my game. You're just wasting my time.

Bruce allowed himself to be trained for many years, he learned dicipline and would probably have taken his place as the "sidekick" of one of his masters if the position was proposed to him. This is something he would teach to Dick and Dick would accept his role as a sidekick, at least for a couple of years, say; training from 12 - 16 and then Robin from 16-19, then Nightwing from 19 and on.

Bruce would never have accepted the role of sidekick, because his goal was to go fight crime and he had to get his training from many different mentors; magicians, detectives, ninja masters, forensic scientists, pilots... swordsmen, boxers, wrestlers... etc. None of these guys are anything like Batman; none of them would have needed a sidekick and being a sidekick to any of them would not have served Batman's mission.

The difference in Dick and Bruce is that Bruce didn't have someone who was like him; Bruce was the original caped crusader, if you will. Dick finds in Batman something that Batman never had: one person who can teach him everything he needs to know to find his parents' killer and avenge them. Bruce didn't have that.

With that said, I agree that Dick would accept his role of sidekick, but only if it served his mission. If Batman kept him out of the field, Dick would not accept that, nor would it be respectful of Dick and his mission if Batman didn't let him out in the field. It would be the ultimate condescension, and Dick would not have patience for that, nor would I expect him to.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

The biggest problem in this whole thing is that introducing Dick in a movie, from a film-storytelling point of view, he would have to don the Robin-suit by at least the end of the movie, to keep the general audience interested. Most people know the Robin Character, they don´t want to see too much Dick Grayson (the Bruce/Batman balance of Begins was near perfect...and remember, i´m talking about the general audience here).. This only proves further that Robin should never be introduced in a movie... A live-action TV-series (following the comics) on the other hand, would be a lot better.

Except that TV sucks.

 

[Kaizer]

You have to at least offer evidence as to why, though. Otherwise you're not playing my game. You're just wasting my time.

The "evidence", as you call it, came in the next section of the post.

Bruce would never have accepted the role of sidekick, because his goal was to go fight crime and he had to get his training from many different mentors; magicians, detectives, ninja masters, forensic scientists, pilots... swordsmen, boxers, wrestlers... etc. None of these guys are anything like Batman; none of them would have needed a sidekick and being a sidekick to any of them would not have served Batman's mission.

The Begins Bruce would surely have joined Ducard as his assistant, right-hand-man, sidekick if you will IF he had had the same goal as Bruce, like he originally thought when joining him. The same goes for the Bruce in the comics, and now I´m talking about Bruce BEFORE Batman, before he decided that the best thing is to take matters in his own hands, if he had been offered help, if someone with the same goal as Bruce had offered to train him if he would take the place at his side in ridding the world of crime, he would, without a doubt in my mind, take the offer.

Except that TV sucks.

Not if done right. With the best writers (bring in the writers from the comics), directors and a good budget, it would work perfectly. (I actually started writing my idea for the first episode of a Batman-TV-Series, let me see if I can look it up.)

 

[Keyser Sushi]

The "evidence", as you call it, came in the next section of the post.

Allegedly.

The Begins Bruce would surely have joined Ducard as his assistant, right-hand-man, sidekick if you will IF he had had the same goal as Bruce, like he originally thought when joining him. The same goes for the Bruce in the comics, and now I´m talking about Bruce BEFORE Batman, before he decided that the best thing is to take matters in his own hands, if he had been offered help, if someone with the same goal as Bruce had offered to train him if he would take the place at his side in ridding the world of crime, he would, without a doubt in my mind, take the offer.

Well, where to begin with what's wrong with this statement:

1.) Begins Bruce differs from comic Bruce in that Begins Bruce had a mentor in Ra's who appeared, at first, to have the same goals as Bruce. But Bruce's breaking away from Ra's is symbolic in some sense, just as Bruce's destroying of all the things that his father built is symbolic. In order to become a man, a boy has to step out of the shadow of his father. We spend all our childhood - if we have a good father - looking up to the guy and thinking he can fix everything, and his a boundless font of knowledge both great and small. He is a god. Then we get older and the questions we ask get more complicated and sometimes he doesn't have the answers. The first time I heard my Dad say "I don't know" I said, "WTF!?!? How can he not know? He knows EVERYTHING!"

Now I'm and adult and while my Dad is still the man I most try to emulate, he is also someone that I am very different from, and I have had to accept that fact because it allows me to be my own man. In BB, Ra's al Ghul and Thomas Wayne were both father figures for Bruce; he ulimately destroyed everything that both of them had built in order to earn his place as his own man.

2.) Bruce in the comics did most of his training while he was a kid and he DID sort of make himself apprentice to a lot of people. But again, when he grew up he had to go his own way. It's part of manhood. This is also why Robin becomes Nightwing: when a boy grows up he has to get out from the under the shadow of his "father." Note that Nightwing is almost exactly Batman. Because he still emulates his "Dad."

Not if done right. With the best writers (bring in the writers from the comics), directors and a good budget, it would work perfectly. (I actually started writing my idea for the first episode of a Batman-TV-Series, let me see if I can look it up.)

No offense, but based on your stunted and inept understanding of the dynamics at work in these characters, I really have no interest in any bit of fan-fic you may have cobbled together.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I completely forgot the basis of what you guys have been arguing about.

 

[Kaizer]

No offense, but based on your stunted and inept understanding of the dynamics at work in these characters, I really have no interest in any bit of fan-fic you may have cobbled together.

As I really have no interest in your interpretation of the characters, but still you keep pushing them on me, and I keep listening.

My fan-fic is mostly based on the very first issues of Batman (the Bill Finger/Bob Kane ones) with a little touch of Year One.

I´m an educated screenwriter/director, in some cases, I do know what I´m talking about.

Well, where to begin with what's wrong with this statement:

1.) Begins Bruce differs from comic Bruce in that Begins Bruce had a mentor in Ra's who appeared, at first, to have the same goals as Bruce. But Bruce's breaking away from Ra's is symbolic in some sense, just as Bruce's destroying of all the things that his father built is symbolic. In order to become a man, a boy has to step out of the shadow of his father. We spend all our childhood - if we have a good father - looking up to the guy and thinking he can fix everything, and his a boundless font of knowledge both great and small. He is a god. Then we get older and the questions we ask get more complicated and sometimes he doesn't have the answers. The first time I heard my Dad say "I don't know" I said, "WTF!?!? How can he not know? He knows EVERYTHING!"

2.) Bruce in the comics did most of his training while he was a kid and he DID sort of make himself apprentice to a lot of people. But again, when he grew up he had to go his own way. It's part of manhood. This is also why Robin becomes Nightwing: when a boy grows up he has to get out from the under the shadow of his "father." Note that Nightwing is almost exactly Batman. Because he still emulates his "Dad."

I totally agree with you on most of your claims, I think you somewhat misunderstand me, in the comics-world I have absolutely no problem with Robin´s age and development, I just don´t see it happening in the realistic world of Begins. An oppinion which I think I share with most people around here. Robin has no place in a Begins Sequel. Period.